Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: razorsharptokill on November 15, 2019, 05:07:19 pm
-
Shooting this bow this evening and heard a loud TICK. The handle is a glue on. At 1st I thought it was that. Nope.... The wood in the sight window gave. It doesn't look deep but I quit shooting it.
Thoughts?
-
How wide is it at the arrow pass?
If you like cut in arrow passes, you can leave more meat on the opposite side at the fade to increase strength. It doesn't look as elegant, but its less likely to crack.
-
Can you post a picture looking from the back. It looks to me as if your fades are too short. If that makes any sense to you.
-
+1 to DC
Never run that risk because I don't do shelves or sight windows.
-
You can't make sight windows on a selfbow like that.
-
Some people do it but I wouldn't cut into any selfbow like that.
The fades are already under a lot of stress on a 'normal' design cutting a shelf in just makes it worse.
57" is pretty darn short also upping the stress at the fades.
The straw that broke the camels back!
On your next bow simply add some leather soaked in superglue to the side you want a shelf and shape the shelf from the leather.
-
What's your draw length and weight on that? Also, that's a very strange looking crack. Did it originate from the back and spread into the fade, or vise versa?
-
That is a strange looking crack. Did you by any chance have a dry fire?
Bjrogg
-
Never seen one crack across the grain that much.
-
That kind humerous. I build SB for years with shelves allthe time. Need to keep abour 1” of wood and fades a little longer. Does look likea short fade.
Can’t is not in my selfbow vocab.
Nice looking bow.
HH~
-
I dont think anyone is saying it cant be done, only that it cant be done like that. You need more meat in the window and fades or it will inevitably break under stress.
-
Without knowing more details on this bow I cant say anything about it for certain. I can however say, I'm the luckiest bowyer alive cause I make the 54 inches long, and with short fades, and with cut in shelfs almost every time and never had a problem. I'd almost swear it can be done.
-
That is a strange looking crack. Did you by any chance have a dry fire?
Bjrogg
Certainly one of my initial thoughts as well.
-
My guess would be a tourqing issue judging from the crack
.I would guess the top limb was tourqing to the right when being shot.just my .02.
-
No dry fire but I did have the handle pop loose at the upper fade. I glued it back and it is holding. In hindsight I should have not cut a shelf into this bow with being so short, a bulbous handle would have been fine. I'm wondering a about adding a thin lamination over the crack to add strength. Nothing to lose at this point. I learn something on every bow I make. I still consider my self a novice and while this is heartbreaking, this bow has taught me several lessons.
My draw is 27" the bow is 52lbs @ 26" I have been shooting it in to make sure it was going to survive. It also had a slight concavity ion the back of the upper limb which lifted some splinters. i patched it with sinew and applied rawhide to the entire bow. The arrow pass is about 1/2" deep. This bow is definitely pushing the limits of its design.
-
Jim the next time you glue on a handle try leaving more fade. I like some of the fade to still be on the original piece of wood. If handle is popping off it's bending past the fades. Another thing that helps is to use thin multi layer strips for your handle so it can flex slightly in the fades without popping off handle.
I've probably made 70+ bows and I'm still a novice. They all teach me something. If they didn't I'd probably find something else to play with.
Bjrogg
-
Ditto that BJ. About the same for me. I’m competent, but not much beyond that. Concave backs are a problem within themselves. Just an added layer of complexity.
-
probably depends on the kind of wood too,,, how much you can do there,,
that particular piece of wood,, was not thick enough for sure,,
lots of guys make bows like that,, I dont do it,,, but any kind of bow can blow up and they do,,
I try to eliminate anything risky,, :NN
-
Looks like the handle is bending. Jawge
-
There's nothing unusual in appearance about the crack. That's how they break there. The only thing a bit different is that it hasn't quite let go like they can.
Not saying a shelf can't be cut, just not like that.
-
There's nothing unusual in appearance about the crack. That's how they break there. The only thing a bit different is that it hasn't quite let go like they can.
Not saying a shelf can't be cut, just not like that.
I've never seen it before, so it's new to me. Never had one fail before.... knockin on wood!
-
You can cut the entire handle off, flatten the belly out into your fades a little further, add a couple of 1/8" shims first then your piece handle and get rid of the crack.
Like this;
-
The crack is too far up the limb and off to the side for that it would appear.
-
Not in my experience Pat, you have probably seen some of the lost causes that I fixed just to see if I could. I have ground of a bunch of handles into new wood and replaced them.
Here is one that was broken by a beam falling on it in a house fire, I fixed it because the guy loved it, it was still shooting the last time I saw him.
Look at that crack running out from under the hande and to the belly as well as the bamboo split away from the back and running up in the limb, this one took urac and sinew to stabilize.
Again I ask, if anyone has attempted such a fix and failed let us know. If you haven't attempted such a fix your "opinion" doesn't matter.
-
Another one made from the worst impossible stave I had just to see if I could make a shootable bow out of it.
First, the bow before I applied the finish (Yep, those are pieces glued in) and second the bow after it was found in a bow shop in Chattanooga 10 years after I built it.
-
My point is, what do you have to lose for trying a fix, the bow is toast like it is anyway.
-
My point is, what do you have to lose for trying a fix, the bow is toast like it is anyway.
I think what you need to realise is that you have an unusual skill set that makes me and I'm certain others scratch their heads on how you come up with then execute your repairs. You are VERY good at that.
-
What makes me laugh is folks saying 'oh it can be done' and ignoring the fact that this bow broke in the first place because of that shelf being cut in...…is that crack there or isn't it?!? Did anybody say that it is impossible to cut a shelf into a selfbow???
I've made enough bows both glass and self and seen enough of these breaks to know how to design a shelf properly. As Pat said this is how they break in that area when the grain violation and the stress combination become too much. That crack is a classic example of what happens when you push things a little too far.
-
What makes me laugh is folks saying 'oh it can be done' and ignoring the fact that this bow broke in the first place because of that shelf being cut in...…is that crack there or isn't it?!? Did anybody say that it is impossible to cut a shelf into a selfbow???
I've made enough bows both glass and self and seen enough of these breaks to know how to design a shelf properly. As Pat said this is how they break in that area when the grain violation and the stress combination become too much. That crack is a classic example of what happens when you push things a little too far.
Valid point. What I'm not understanding is, how in the hell it's still in one piece and the back didn't self destruct. bows dont fail like that in compression, sooo????
-
What makes me laugh is folks saying 'oh it can be done' and ignoring the fact that this bow broke in the first place because of that shelf being cut in...…is that crack there or isn't it?!? Did anybody say that it is impossible to cut a shelf into a selfbow???
I've made enough bows both glass and self and seen enough of these breaks to know how to design a shelf properly. As Pat said this is how they break in that area when the grain violation and the stress combination become too much. That crack is a classic example of what happens when you push things a little too far.
Valid point. What I'm not understanding is, how in the hell it's still in one piece and the back didn't self destruct. bows dont fail like that in compression, sooo????
That's easy. They go tick before they go boom. He stopped when he heard the tick.
Not really any different from a bow popping a little sliver on the back.
Eric's demonstration of how to repair a bow broken due to other reasons or assembling a bow from scraps and then properly designing the fades and transition is not really valid to this bow.
-
If you take the handle off, put a big chunk of wood back in its place and shape it correctly in the fades you can fix it. I have filled over cut sight windows as well but I don't think this bow needs it.
That crack is going to take a ton of superglue as well after you cut down as far as you dare toward the back.
Here is how to fill a deep cut out and make it look like it was the plan, you don't try to fil it all. Sorry for the bad picture, it was a thumbnail in my bow making album that I resized to make bigger.
-
Eric has made a good point. With enough time, expertise and super glue, any bow can be "remade". At some point I will say hey, I will just start another bow! This one would be one of those points. For me.
-
Eric,,,thank u for sharing ur expertise on repairs...great info
-
I did all the above when urac was available, bomb proof stuff. I don't know how the present glues stack up to Urac.
That is osage burl in the cut out repair picture, it was as hard as a rock and looked real snazzy in the finished bow with the leather covering up the lower part below the rest.
Here is a piece of the same I used for a tip overlay, beautiful stuff.
-
Damn Eric! Those are some masterful repairs. Well done.
-
I will just keep working on it until it either survives or it or it doesn't. Will probably be a winter project after I cut some more Osage. Thanks for all of the input guys.
-
Update: I took the glued on handle off, flattened the belly in the handle area out into the fades some. Then I glued on Osage laminations in its place. The crack is still there and opens up when I brace the bow. My plan is to fill t he crack with thin superglue, unstring it then reduce the draw weight to ease the strain on the affected area. Then I am going to take Eric's advice and cut and fill the area with another piece of Osage.
-
Nice fix Jim. I think I might have extended the Osage strips a little further if possible. I like to gain a little thickness in my fades before I start to narrow them up. Just a little thickness really helps stiffen them up.
Bjrogg
-
Nice looking repair so far. You can do it!
-
thats looking great,,I like the idea of reducing the weight of the bow,, :)
-
I think I am going to glue laminations of Osage alternating the grain. I cut the shelf so that it is flat and I still need to finish flattening the window so that the laminations have a flat surface to mate up to.
-
I would just like to say that this is an excellent thread with a great discussion!
Keep us in the loop with the fixings, razor! Sounds and looks great so far!