Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: burtonridr on November 17, 2019, 04:06:58 pm
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I'm preparing to do a brown paper backing. The wood is the natural kinda bumpy and lumpy surface from under the bark with some of the inner bark in places, kinda looks like a camo pattern. Anyway, can the backing be applied over this with good results? Or is it important to make the surface completely flat?
I'm concerned that since it is tillered perfectly at my poundage I might loose weight by trying to even out the surface to much.
Thanks in advance!
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Is the back in good shape?
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Not worth the effort with that kind of back. If it's done and hasn't broken then just cross your fingers.
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If the back is sound and unviolated there is no reason for a backing.
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The back is in good shape, I'm backing a choke cherry bow. Long story short, it's a take down, I originally planned to back it, it was shooting so sweet... But before I got it backed one limb snapped, it failed in tension. Pretty sure I screwed up stringing it improperly... that's when it snapped... But I'm not sure, design might be pushing the wood capabilities. I shot the bow maybe 50 times before it snapped, but it snapped while stringing.
I'm making a new limb to replace the one that broke and I've been told by members on this forum its a good idea to back choke cherry since it is weak i in tension. What do you guys think?
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Our Natives backed wild Choke Cherry with sinew for good reason. As a self bow that wood can be dangerous in my experience, and when it breaks it explodes.If you really like the bow then sinew back it. JMO.
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Do u think rawhide would work?
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I've never worked with choke cherry, but I have worked with black cherry a fair amount. Bass is right that when it fails, it fails big. I've only had 1 unbacked black cherry bow that held up over time. All of my others have either failed toward the end of tiller, or within the first 500 arrows. That being said I think you could probably get a durable bow out of it with one of the stronger non-working backing materials like hide as Brad suggested, or a high thread count tight weaved cloth of either cotton or linen. Cherry is light which makes a nice snappy shooter. It just needs proper reinforcement to overcome its brittleness.
Now to answer the actual question that you asked. The back doesn't have to be perfectly flat to apply backing. If you have a nice clear unviolated ring for a back and it has some lumps and bumps you're better off applying your backing over the bumps. If you take the bumps off you're creating ring violations which weakens the natural back. As for the bits of bark, you'll want to sand off all bark or cambium so the you're gluing your backing material directly to wood. Just be careful with your sanding, don't sand to deeply into the wood and create a ring violation.
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After the way it blew up on me before, I'm in favor of backing, and I want to do it right.
After reading about brown paper, it appears that the consensus about brown paper bag material is that it is strong enough in tensile strength and makes a good backing material. Am I off here?
If that wont work, I've got linen that I used on a flat short bow, or I've got silk from the christmas trade last year(but I was saving it for my next cedar flat bow). So I've got a couple other options, I'd love to get opinions on the best application.
I would like to use sinew, but right now I dont have the material or the time it seems it would take to do it right.
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I've never used paper, so I can't comment on its effectiveness. But I'd think linen would work well for you.
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After the way it blew up on me before, I'm in favor of backing, and I want to do it right.
After reading about brown paper, it appears that the consensus about brown paper bag material is that it is strong enough in tensile strength and makes a good backing material. Am I off here?
If that wont work, I've got linen that I used on a flat short bow, or I've got silk from the christmas trade last year(but I was saving it for my next cedar flat bow). So I've got a couple other options, I'd love to get opinions on the best application.
I would like to use sinew, but right now I dont have the material or the time it seems it would take to do it right.
Paper bag shouldnt even be considered a backing material imho. I wouldnt use anything less than silk. I use silk under almost all my skinned bows. Sometimes rawhide if I feel Like it. If the back is a little wigglie that’s fine, if you can’t seat the silk down right it’s okat to flatten it out with a rasp and sand paper. Same goes for prominent sharp bumps.
If you don’t want to use up your silk or rawhide hit me up I’ll send you some. I’m not a fan of broken bows. Especially if it’s preventable.
Choke cherry is a good fast wood. If it where mine sinew would be my first choice bc of the added benefit. Rawhide, second. Sh%# man I’ll send yah sinew if need be.
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Bryce, I really appreciate the offer, I'm always amazed by the generosity on this forum. It's really nice of you to offer. But I can use the silk I have, I went and measured the piece I've got and it should be enough for about 4 bows. Had no idea it was such a big piece.
You've got me thinking to give the Silk a try, does anyone have a link to a good tutorial?
Could I fill one of the dents in the back with wood glue first instead of sand?
Is wood glue tb3 good to use with silk? or something else?
Here is a link to a thread about the bow, I'll have to post pics showing the busted limb.
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,66727.0.html
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With that wood the bow will tiller fine, and shoot fine for about 300 to 400 rounds ,and then let go. At least it did for me with 4 different bows. The first 3 no bodily damage. The 4th one broke my glasses in 2, and bruised my eye. The 2 I have left I didn't shoot much. Take Bryce up on his generous offer,and sinew back it.You will be glad you did in the long run.
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Bryce, I really appreciate the offer, I'm always amazed by the generosity on this forum. It's really nice of you to offer. But I can use the silk I have, I went and measured the piece I've got and it should be enough for about 4 bows. Had no idea it was such a big piece.
You've got me thinking to give the Silk a try, does anyone have a link to a good tutorial?
Could I fill one of the dents in the back with wood glue first instead of sand?
Is wood glue tb3 good to use with silk? or something else?
Here is a link to a thread about the bow, I'll have to post pics showing the busted limb.
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,66727.0.html
Cut em to size. Get em wet and ring em out till damp. Generous sizing of glue on the back of the bow with Pva or hide glue. Then lay em down and rub out all the air bubbles. If you want you can also water down a bit of your glue and work it into the silk as well to permeate the whole backing
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Will the silk backing prevent what happened to bassman's bows? This is what I'm trying to prevent.
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A better bow maker may have prevented what happened to my bows.I built the bows 62 long 2 wide at the fades to 3/4 at the tips for a 45 lb bow at 26 inch draw.
Tillered them to the best of my ability at the time.Not saying other backings will not work. Just stating what happened to me, and stating what can happen with that wood. Others may have made no break bows from Wild Choke Cherry with no problems. Just be aware that it is a brittle wood for bow making.Many better choices out their.
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It's hard to say with certainty that any backing material will keep a bow from breaking. While they do add strength to the back and help prevent splinters from lifting they are not a cure all. In my experience with Black Cherry, when they fail its the back that gives out. The wood seems to be stout in terms of compression strength on the belly. So, any strong backing material should help with that, but no-one can say for sure your bow will be bulletproof with a backing, there are too many other variables at play.
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Thanks for the help guys, I really appreciate all the responses so far.
I might have asked the wrong question, a better question I guess is, will a silk backing prevent tension failure? Does a silk back really alleviate stress on the back of the bow, or will it just prevent splinters from lifting? It seems like these would be two different issues, maybe someone more experienced can help explain the two issues.
The limb that broke on mine was a clean break across the back in nearly a straight line, not a splinter lifting. The limb then cracked up and down the limb separating the back from the belly for about 5-6 inches. Even with this failure though, the limb is still in one whole piece hanging together, but split apart pretty dramatically. I wish it were easier for me to upload pics at work, but I will try to get something tonight if it helps.
I guess another question would be, is what I'm describing tension failure? And will silk prevent or help prevent that? It seems like it would when I think about it, but i'm not sure.
I just want to make sure that what I'm doing is an appropriate solution for the problem, if not I'm open to other options.
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A better bow maker may have prevented what happened to my bows.I built the bows 62 long 2 wide at the fades to 3/4 at the tips for a 45 lb bow at 26 inch draw.
Tillered them to the best of my ability at the time.Not saying other backings will not work. Just stating what happened to me, and stating what can happen with that wood. Others may have made no break bows from Wild Choke Cherry with no problems. Just be aware that it is a brittle wood for bow making.Many better choices out their.
Were your bows un-backed? When they failed, did a splinter lift? Or was it more of a break across the limb like I experienced?
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At full draw they shattered. It's good yours let go stringing it instead of at full draw. I have 1 left with the bark left on the back. It pulls 38 lbs at 26 inches. The other 1 is backed with the same cloth with 2 of the ones that broke. Inside lining of a long leather jacket. .May be polyester of some kind. Not sure. The other 2 had no backing. I have broken more than my fair share of self bows over the years, but none have broken as violently as wild Choke Cherry. No tick, Just bang.All that being said, I still would trust a Wild Choke Cherry bow if it was backed with sinew. Our Natives seemed to have known what they were doing.JMO
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At full draw they shattered. It's good yours let go stringing it instead of at full draw. I have 1 left with the bark left on the back. It pulls 38 lbs at 26 inches. The other 1 is backed with the same cloth with 2 of the ones that broke. Inside lining of a long leather jacket. .May be polyester of some kind. Not sure. The other 2 had no backing. I have broken more than my fair share of self bows over the years, but none have broken as violently as wild Choke Cherry. No tick, Just bang.All that being said, I still would trust a Wild Choke Cherry bow if it was backed with sinew. Our Natives seemed to have known what they were doing.JMO
Thanks for sharing your experience Bassman, its caused me to rethink using chokecherry in the future :OK