Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Jakesnyder on November 22, 2019, 05:00:15 am
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How picky do I need to be on pin knots? I've built several bows but working around locust knots are a little more challenging than osage. So let me know if this looks good?
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I'd say you did a good job around this pin. If you are concerned then back it with rawhide, linen or silk but from what I can see backing is not necessary.
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The thing about grain around little pins is that a slight violation doesn't seem to matter, your grain chasing work looks very good.
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Another question I have is, i think there's a lot of controversy concerning ring thickness. So I might not get a straight answer. But if a ring is chased correctly Then is it good? Regard list if it is a quarter inch thick or 1 32nd inch thick
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In general...Osage is easier to chase a thicker ring. I prefer thin ringed Osage regardless. I just want a small percentage of early growth and I am happy at the end of the day. Elm I am finding different. So it depends on the species I think. No experience with BL.
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in my experience and those I have read about,, if the ring is solid,, a thin one works great,,on osage
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Jake is that one you got last evening
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Yea it's one of them
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When laying out a bow design always compensate slightly in width with any knot even if its just a pin. Some people get away with it(usually on overbuilt bows), but the more stressed a design becomes the more likely the bow is to break at the point of weakness.
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Made a LOT of bows, this pin knot stuff is vastly over compensated for, they are tough little buggers. I don't worry about pins on the edges of bows or a slight grain violations when I chase a ring over them.
Many of my bows have pins right on the edges of limbs, I have never had one fail in 25 years of bow making.
Here is an example;
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+1 Eric. I ignore them completely. Even on the edges.
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Osage is a damn fine timber, which tolerates knot abuse better than most(especially with a wider flat limb). Locust can be a little weaker in than osage. It has a reputation for sometimes chrysalling even with good tiller.
I find even with backed bows, a pin is a weak area, in compression as well. I used to ignore small pins in backed bows, until I started getting chrysals at these points, in about 1 in every 4 bows that had pins in the belly wood. Since compensating for pins in the newer bows I never get any chrysals. That little bit of extra time and effort gives me 100% chance of the wood having maximised its durability.
Every so often guys post photo's of a beautifully tillered bows, usually a little short in length, or narrow for their draw length/weight, and a couple of days later they post again with a broken bow(usually in tension). The only clue to the break is that it happened at a pin that wasn't compensated for.
Its great that Eric and Slim ignore the knots, and have no trouble, they are quality bowyers. A newer bowyer may not have as much luck due to not having the skills yet.
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Just to clarify, I don’t ignore full grown knots. Those I compensate for. I ignore the pin knots. Just have found them to be a non issue on Osage.
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Osage is a damn fine timber, which tolerates knot abuse better than most(especially with a wider flat limb). Locust can be a little weaker in than osage. It has a reputation for sometimes chrysalling even with good tiller.
I find even with backed bows, a pin is a weak area, in compression as well. I used to ignore small pins in backed bows, until I started getting chrysals at these points, in about 1 in every 4 bows that had pins in the belly wood. Since compensating for pins in the newer bows I never get any chrysals. That little bit of extra time and effort gives me 100% chance of the wood having maximised its durability.
Every so often guys post photo's of a beautifully tillered bows, usually a little short in length, or narrow for their draw length/weight, and a couple of days later they post again with a broken bow(usually in tension). The only clue to the break is that it happened at a pin that wasn't compensated for.
Its great that Eric and Slim ignore the knots, and have no trouble, they are quality bowyers. A newer bowyer may not have as much luck due to not having the skills yet.
Agreed 100%.
I generally make only stressed bows that I am trying to get every ounce out of. Pin knots are an 'issue', I've had them collapse on osage. Ask your self what the grain is doing in and around a pin? Then ask yourself can grain that is doing that take as much as nice flat, straight grained wood can?
I don't think so ;)
Once you use a lot of whitewood that isn't as abuse resistant as osage you will see that pins are definitely a 'weakness'. Ignore them at your peril haha.
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I should clarify one issue; if the grain snakes around a pin on the edge of a limb I follow it religiously which always adds a little extra wood around the pin. If the grain is straight I go with it, no extra wood.
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I'm knot suggesting that anyone should be less than cautious when working on any aspect of these bows. Follow your instincts in most cases, because with enough experience behind you, your instincts will guide you thru these types of things. What I am pointing out is what I have experienced, and that is, that pin knots on Osage are mostly irrelevant...in my experience, and that is true on any design, whether over built or highly stressed. Are folks better off being more cautious with these pins? Better safe than sorry, so yes. But 25 years and lots of bows have shown me that these pins on Osage are interesting visually, but knot an issue that needs much attention. As exhibit "A"...The pic below is an Osage Molly I made some years back (hat tip to Blackhawk and Halfeye for their input). 64" inches tip to tip with a 9 inch handle. 50 lbs at 27". 50/50 working limb to lever, so 13.75 inches of working limb (x2). That's pretty stressed in most peoples book. It's covered with pin knots. Both limbs. I simply tillered for a round profile, nothing more. No set, no chrysalls, no problem. Just food for thought.
And to Erics point, if you look closely, I followed the grain around one pin as that is always a good practice.