Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Arrows => Topic started by: razorsharptokill on November 26, 2019, 08:59:51 am
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I just got a new batch of 55-60 Tonkin shafts from Todd at Khan's. Over all these shafts look awesome. Very straight and the walls look to be thick. I wanted a heavier spine so I could add some weight up front to increase FOC and over all weight. Looking forward to getting these built and seeing them fly.
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does adding weight increase the spine or does adding weight just mean you need a stiffer spine?
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More tip weight decreases dynamic spine but increases FOC. I plan on using finish nails or very thin dowel to the tip. Added weight and strength.
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More tip weight decreases dynamic spine but increases FOC. I plan on using finish nails or very thin dowel to the tip. Added weight and strength.
Good answer Jim. This is correct. I know they took forever to get here, but now I have plenty in stock. This supplier is quite good, isn't she? Can't wait for photos!!!
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does adding weight increase the spine or does adding weight just mean you need a stiffer spine?
If you have two arrows which are identical in all other respects, except that one is heavier than the other. The heavier arrow will fly stiffer. But this is very difficult to quantify because of so many other variable. I have never seen any difference in arrow groups unless the weight difference is greater than 5%...but that is just an observation. I have not tested this hypothesis. There are so many variables that it is hard to design a trial of this. I sell my arrows to be within 20 grains from highest to lowest weight across the 12 arrows for this (and other) reasons. Hope this helps. I have never heard complaints doing it this way, but that doesn't make it gospel. Todd.
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To get to 600+ grains I insert a finish nail into the tip and use a 160 grain point or broadhead And left them full length. I hope to hunt Pronghorns in Wyoming next August with this setup.
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Do you get your shafts from tiger?
I got a few thousand a while ago and the measured spines were quite far off the mark and I do wish they wouldn't sand the nodes so far. Most are good but the odd one broke at the nodes when final straightening because they were too aggressively reduced.
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These shafts are from Khans arrows (Todd Mathis). So far I am very pleased with them.
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These shafts are from Khans arrows (Todd Mathis). So far I am very pleased with them.
You know, I just realized why you like those nails! It really is a clever idea. I went about solving this differently, but I have to say I never thought to do it the way you do with those nails...I think...
Let me see if I understand...If you add weight up front, you have a higher FOC. That's nice, but by making the arrow heavier, you are increasing the dynamic spine so that the arrow will fly stiffer. Then you can put on a heavier head...like a bigger broad head. Am I getting why you guys are using nails? Why not just put a heavier head on to start with? I assume you also using the nail to strengthen the spine up front for penetration? Gotta say...I'm looking forward to OJAM. Hope some of you guys are going.
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Todd, adding the nails to the front of the arrow will decrease the dynamic spine as does adding a heavier head. It doesn't stiffen the spine. If he added something to stiffen the center of the shaft like a bamboo skewer with very little added weight he would increase the spine. Most of the bending of the shaft when shot is in the center 1/3 of the shaft so by changing the bending of the center of the shaft you change the dynamic spine. Adding weight to the front, whether it be a heavier head or a nail or both will decrease the dynamic spine.
The dynamic spine of the shaft is increased or decreased in 2 ways. Whether by adding or subtracting weight or adding or subtracting length beyond the standard you can change the dynamic spine.
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That is why I bumped up to a stiffer shaft so I could add weight up front and not have too weak of a spine. The hunting arrows I have built so far have a 30ish grain nail and a 160 grain broadhead bringing the total weight to right at 600gr.
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Has anyone ever put a nail in the back? Would it stiffen the spine?
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DC, it might stiffen the spine but you want the weight forward in an arrow. Adding a nail to the rear would change the arrow dynamics but not necessarily positively.
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yes as Pat said, weight in the rear will stiffen the dynamic spine, but at a large cost to performance .
you would lose FOC %, and also negatively effect flight characteristics.
i think a nail might be excessive, when fine tuning arrows, just the mass of the fletching or a vinyl cap wrap can make a significant difference.
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I hope to run one through a deer tomorrow morning!
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Do you get your shafts from tiger?
I got a few thousand a while ago and the measured spines were quite far off the mark and I do wish they wouldn't sand the nodes so far. Most are good but the odd one broke at the nodes when final straightening because they were too aggressively reduced.
Sorry for the late reply. No, I used to get my shafts from Tiger. Those are the mediocre shafts I talk about. he isn't the only one. I get mine from a very hard to find company who sells their shafts mainly in Japan. They harvest their own bamboo shafts which have been transplanted to another growing region with excellent results. Tigers are fatter shafts, and they begin to shred apart when I bevel them for a nock or a point. They are not as dense. When they are harvested appears to make a big difference. There is more to the story, but I'm still having coffee to wake up...Merry Christmas to all. The message of Peace and Goodwill could use a little more promotion for us all.
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yes as Pat said, weight in the rear will stiffen the dynamic spine, but at a large cost to performance .
you would lose FOC %, and also negatively effect flight characteristics.
i think a nail might be excessive, when fine tuning arrows, just the mass of the fletching or a vinyl cap wrap can make a significant difference.
I would love to meet some of you guys at OJAM and compare notes and see what you are shooting. They have me scheduled to teach a seminar, but I would love to shoot some of your arrows. by the way, I have been told to bring shafts to sell. Who has been to OJAM...Is this a good idea? Thanks to all.
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yes as Pat said, weight in the rear will stiffen the dynamic spine, but at a large cost to performance .
you would lose FOC %, and also negatively effect flight characteristics.
i think a nail might be excessive, when fine tuning arrows, just the mass of the fletching or a vinyl cap wrap can make a significant difference.
I would love to meet some of you guys at OJAM and compare notes and see what you are shooting. They have me scheduled to teach a seminar, but I would love to shoot some of your arrows. by the way, I have been told to bring shafts to sell. Who has been to OJAM...Is this a good idea? Thanks to all.
I think you'll see more guys at the MOJAM than the OJAM IMO. I at least dont hear as much about the OJAM than the MOJAM.
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Maybe we can get Todd to come over to MoJam, too! Get him out on the "circuit"! (SH)
Hawkdancer
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Almost too many folks at OJAM last time I was there. Great place to learn though.
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Maybe we can get Todd to come over to MoJam, too! Get him out on the "circuit"! (SH)
Hawkdancer
What is Mojam? Is there a contact or website? I highly impressed by how much ya'll have done with arrow building. I'll bring the Jameson's if I can get there. Date?
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Todd, you might consider the Tennessee Classic at the end of April or early May. 600+ trad and primitive shooters with their families, all shooters. Limited vender spaces but Pappy can give you info about it. His hunting club, Twin Oaks Bowhunters sponsor the shoot on Pappy's 400ac farm and most are camping on site. Two competition 20 target 3D ranges, a 20 target practice 3D range plus a target butts set up from about 10 yards out to about 50 yard shots. The big plus is this is probably the largest wood bow building event anywhere around. Bows, arrows and other fun stuff being made for a week before the official event on Friday, Saturday and Sunday.
Pappy will probably be posting the dates after the first of the year in the "Shoots and Events" thread.
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Big doings at Marshall, MO, 3rd week of July. The new information should be up pretty soon. Officially, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, break camp on Sunday. Some people are there like Friday or Saturday before! Might check back in the "Around the Campfire" for last year's thread.
Hawkdancer
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Big doings at Marshall, MO, 3rd week of July. The new information should be up pretty soon. Officially, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, break camp on Sunday. Some people are there like Friday or Saturday before! Might check back in the "Around the Campfire" for last year's thread.
Hawkdancer
"The center for the intrepid" is a large medical center in San Antonio for active duty and retired military who have gone through significant injury in the Iraq/Afganistan. there seems to be a natural connection between arrow making, archery, and related areas. I'm looking into bringing one or two with me who have an interest. I'm actually looking for an apprentice, so this may work out all the way around. Given my health problems, it is best to travel with others. I'm hoping I can get to a few and learn more. It may be a HUGE positive for them. Thanks for the info ya'll. very helpful.
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Maybe we can get Todd to come over to MoJam, too! Get him out on the "circuit"! (SH)
Hawkdancer
What is Mojam? Is there a contact or website? I highly impressed by how much ya'll have done with arrow building. I'll bring the Jameson's if I can get there. Date?
we will have to convert you to Tullamore DEW, Sexton, or Kerns! After the bows are put away, of course! Middleton's is good, too, but over my pocketbook! Seems to be quite a nymber of veterans in this group! Bows, arrows, etc, are good therapy, and this is a place to communicate.
Hawkdancer
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Maybe we can get Todd to come over to MoJam, too! Get him out on the "circuit"! (SH)
Hawkdancer
You know...I can see that ya'll are gonna have a bad influence on me. I'm guessing you are the people my mama warned me about!
My shredded immune system from relapsed Leukemia and high dose Chemo, Shingles, meningitis, and diabetes...and my M.I a few months ago, with a stint, and now on blood thinners...I do have to stay in hotels. I wouldn't be the guy anyone would want camping with them. I used to be an infantry officer and lived outdoors for weeks at a time...but no longer. We each have our own history, but I very much enjoy just hanging out, chatting with, and breaking/losing arrows with others like me. Possibly I will be starting to work with "the center for the intrepid" soon. Apparently some of these guys are highly interested in this thing we all do. I am hoping to find a traveling buddy or two...they may be more the camper type. It would be nice to help some of them find a good place to fit in. Ojam, Mojam, the tennessee classic, all those might just be a great thing to look into. AND it should be a good place for business if they'll let me.
Merry Christmas to you all. Hope everyone has a safe winter.
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What! A bad influence?! Us?! Why, we are all sweet innocent, reputable, upstanding men and women!, well sometimes! (lol) (lol) >:D >:D! Lots of vets from all branches! Looking forward to MoJam already! Happy holidays!
Hawkdancer
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Still after deer with these arrows and one of my selfbows, wish me luck!
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This is a tough time of year for bow hunting but at least most folks have gone home and left the woods unmanned. Good luck.
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Yes and it is warm and windy.