Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: IrishJay on November 27, 2019, 05:20:59 pm

Title: Curve in grain
Post by: IrishJay on November 27, 2019, 05:20:59 pm
I just split this stave out today, it has some nice natural reflex and the one limb was almost floor tillered right off the split. The other limb also has some reflex, but it also has curve in the grain about a third of the way out that deflexs it in that one spot. Here are some picks of the limbs and the belly grain at the problem spot. I want to heat bend the kinked limb out so it matches the other, but I'm fraid I'm going to get seperation the way the rings/grain are in the spot.

(https://i.imgur.com/XWG5Cyi.jpg)


(https://i.imgur.com/kC4npnl.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/9VRSMZg.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/bVG14Rr.jpg)
Title: Re: Curve in grain
Post by: PatM on November 27, 2019, 06:52:34 pm
That's really of no consequence.  It looks more like your roughing out is too rough more than anything.   Rasp it and scrape it to a tidier look and re-assess. 
Title: Re: Curve in grain
Post by: IrishJay on November 27, 2019, 07:23:19 pm
Working on scrapping it down more, will post some new pics when it get closer to floor tiller
Title: Re: Curve in grain
Post by: bjrogg on November 27, 2019, 08:18:21 pm
What type of wood is it?
Bjrogg
Title: Re: Curve in grain
Post by: IrishJay on November 27, 2019, 08:46:28 pm
BJ its the wood from pages 2 and 3 of this thread:

http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,66772.0.html

I think its either some member of the hickory family or possible osage sap wood(its yellow but my camera isn't capturing just how yellow it is. ) Others have suggested elm, but its very hard, strong and dense, plus the color seems wrong for elm.

Here are some cleaner pics. The questionable spot is so rough because my scraper is catching the grain there and not getting a clean scrape.
(https://i.imgur.com/hd1AU6x.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/u3FPJ1H.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Ajfa4ZN.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/6Z4ju6J.jpg)
Title: Re: Curve in grain
Post by: IrishJay on November 27, 2019, 08:51:13 pm
The slab in the background is what I splitit from you can see how amber it's turned while drying.
Title: Re: Curve in grain
Post by: IrishJay on November 27, 2019, 11:31:56 pm
Got the kink out out that limb and it evened things up pretty well, but now Ive got 6" of reflex. Once I reduce the handle/fades area a bit I think I might deflex it a touch.

(https://i.imgur.com/ApuiuqM.jpg)
Title: Re: Curve in grain
Post by: bownarra on November 28, 2019, 01:28:30 am
Yes much more than 2 inches of reflex is a bad thing on a wood bow.
Title: Re: Curve in grain
Post by: SLIMBOB on November 28, 2019, 07:13:16 am
You state that as though it is a fact, and it most certainly is not.  It may be that in your experience much more than 2 inches is bad, and if expressed in that manor, new folks would understand that this is what you have found.  I would respectfully suggest you rethink that statement.    It has been my experience that some wood bows will tolerate more reflex than others.  Some need no more than an inch or two, while some others will tolerate five or six inches.  Some of the reflex is gonna pull out leaving you netting less than you put into it.  My suggestion is be a bit conservative early on.  Once you get a feel for various wood types and designs you will invariably push the limits further out, and have your own experiences to relate to others.
Title: Re: Curve in grain
Post by: bjrogg on November 28, 2019, 07:36:43 am
I guess I agree with slimbob. I think it can depend on what length and design you go with. I like a quite a bit of Reflex. I have a short draw. With a design that's not overwhelming stressed Reflex works nice for me. I also think it depends on the type of wood and even the individual stave. This being a unknown wood type, it could be either good or bad. Some wood types are easier or harder to manipulate their shape with heat to. I've had really good results with most Osage. HHB seems much harder to get to hold what correction I try to put in. It seems to be a individual stave thing . Some stay where I want and some just seem to return to their original shape.

There is always the option of using it just like it is to. It does make tillering more difficult, but it is an option.

Good Luck. Learn what you can from it

Bjrogg
Title: Re: Curve in grain
Post by: IrishJay on November 28, 2019, 09:39:15 am
I'm also working on a 60" gullwing from this same wood, I should be sharing it on here in the next week or so once the cosmetic finishing is done. It's tillered out to 46#@28" and held it's heat shaping well taking very little set. This bow is going to be tillered for a 31" draw so I think 6" reflex is a bit extreme. I guess it will just come down to how the handle/fades look once I reduce them down some more, but I'll probably try to get some deflex into that area.
Title: Re: Curve in grain
Post by: DC on November 28, 2019, 11:10:54 am
If you glue(5 min epoxy works well for this) a flat piece on the belly side of the handle it helps stop the thing from flipping on the tree. Don't flatten the handle first and cut it off after it's braced. Like Slim said, some is going to pull out. I like reflex. :D
Title: Re: Curve in grain
Post by: IrishJay on November 29, 2019, 10:55:39 am
The more I stare at this piece of wood the less sure on how to proceed I get. Part of me wants to just clean up my rough out and start tillering, the other part wants to deflex the handle some. Decisions decisions...
Title: Re: Curve in grain
Post by: DC on November 29, 2019, 11:02:48 am
I would put it on the tree and tiller a bit, watching the "set" very closely to see if if might pull out. Make a tracing of the reflex or at the very least measure it in an accurate repeatable way. Then you can make a more informed decision about deflexing it or not. You'd hate to deflex it and have all the reflex pull out.
Title: Re: Curve in grain
Post by: IrishJay on November 29, 2019, 11:05:01 am
True.
Title: Re: Curve in grain
Post by: IrishJay on November 29, 2019, 11:10:22 am
Placing the tips agsinst the wall and then measuring from the wall to the back at center stave I have 5 7/8" reflex right now.

(https://i.imgur.com/nbRUVFw.jpg)
Title: Re: Curve in grain
Post by: SLIMBOB on November 29, 2019, 12:05:13 pm
+1. DC.
Title: Re: Curve in grain
Post by: IrishJay on November 30, 2019, 12:24:06 pm
Well I think yinz guys talked me into it. I'm going to cleanup the rough-out/floor tiller, give it a nice deep slow heat treat, and tiller as is. Going for 50~55#@31". If it holds a fair amount of this flex it should be a real rocket launcher.
Title: Re: Curve in grain
Post by: SLIMBOB on November 30, 2019, 12:45:16 pm
I love starting with that type of natural backset. The keys will be keeping it together and minimizing any set. Perfect tiller from the get go, floor tiller and beyond. Any weak spots will show up early. Prevent them.
Title: Re: Curve in grain
Post by: IrishJay on November 30, 2019, 01:53:02 pm
I'll let you know how its going once I get it bending. Right now it takes about 50# to push each limb straight against a floor scale, so I've got plenty of meat to work with.
Title: Re: Curve in grain
Post by: SLIMBOB on November 30, 2019, 02:04:34 pm
Others will differ with this, but I get a string on them now, or soon anyway. 0 brace height. I work it out from there pulling an inch or two and check the tiller. Lots of belly wood to shed so counter to what it might seem, this method helps me prevent set. I just keep pulling an inch at a time until it is braceable (invented word🙂). The brace should be near perfect before moving farther.
Title: Re: Curve in grain
Post by: IrishJay on November 30, 2019, 02:35:13 pm
At this point I generally conservatively scrape just enough to even everything up and smooth out any marks left from rough out. Then move to the tree with a long string, long enough that it hangs slack from the bow. Then I tiller to weight and length with that long string. At that point I can usually get a nive even low brace.
Title: Re: Curve in grain
Post by: SLIMBOB on November 30, 2019, 02:49:27 pm
That is exactly what I did for a long time. I now work it a bit differently. With that much reflex I will use a long string, but only until I can get a tight string on it. 0 inches. Then just keep tightening the string as you get the tiller adjusted and you are at near full brace height. Food for thought.
Title: Re: Curve in grain
Post by: bradsmith2010 on November 30, 2019, 04:44:13 pm
Don't let the reflex trick u,,,,might seem heavier than it is,..especially if some pulls out,.
Title: Re: Curve in grain
Post by: IrishJay on November 30, 2019, 05:27:13 pm
The other bow that I'm just finishing up from this same wood, has surprisingly skinny limbs for it draw weight. Looking at the 2 side by side I'm confident that I have mpre than enough wood in this one to hit mid 50's