Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: DC on December 07, 2019, 08:22:52 pm

Title: Disappointment
Post by: DC on December 07, 2019, 08:22:52 pm
I don't know how many of you remember this bow.It was a beautiful Yew branch that would not stop moving. I finely got is settled enough to post it in July
https://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,66179.0.html
I shot it for about a month and it seemed fine so it went in the back hall with the rest of them. After this little spell of low humidity I remembered it and took a look. Here's a picture. The string is out of line by 2 1/2" at the tip. I'm going to look and see if I can't resplice it but I just don't know if it's stopped moving. It's not a great picture but it's dark outside and I think you can see the alignment. I hung the piece of paper on the string so it shows better. Has anyone had a bow that just keeps moving no matter how long you wait?  It's one of my favourite pieces of wood so it's worth trying to fix it.
Title: Re: Disappointment
Post by: dylanholderman on December 07, 2019, 10:46:34 pm
honestly i have no idea, i've never had a bow do that before.
maybe just set aside for two or more years before doing more work to it so that it can settle down.
Title: Re: Disappointment
Post by: bradsmith2010 on December 07, 2019, 11:24:47 pm
W ow,,..
Title: Re: Disappointment
Post by: Badger on December 08, 2019, 12:07:10 am
  Yew is bad about that. It will often return to its shape after being corrected also.
Title: Re: Disappointment
Post by: bownarra on December 08, 2019, 02:08:56 am
Me and a friend cut an unkown sapling years ago to make his first bow with. That thing moved like a snake. It only stopped after being tillered 3 times :)
Title: Re: Disappointment
Post by: Limbit on December 08, 2019, 02:26:57 am
Mulberry always does that to me. The issue is the moisture change in the air. The stuff won't stop moving even after a heat treatment. Super frustrating. I split the wood then leave the wood the hell alone now for a few years until it turns dark brown. Then, I keep the profile really wide (especially the tips) to leave the wood plenty of room to move a little and tiller it in stages over a few months till the final profile pretty much is what it is without movement. I found if I add sinew, I need to do so very early on in the tillering process. The added moisture really throws it for a loop. I'm guessing this is just the white mulberry I use growing where I live cause I've never heard other people have this problem with red mulberry. Sad regardless. Such a pretty bow you had there. Maybe you can just steam the handle and bend the string alignment back? Worked for me in the past.
Title: Re: Disappointment
Post by: bjrogg on December 08, 2019, 07:49:34 am
Yes I remember that one DC. Bummer. Is a interesting piece of wood, that I know you put a lot of effort into. Hope you can figure something out.


I've had wood that returned to its original shape. Not that just moved unpredictability.
Bjrogg
Title: Re: Disappointment
Post by: Selfbowman on December 08, 2019, 09:03:18 am
DC yew will take heat pretty good. I once had a 80 pound Jim Fetro bow that I could not shoot . I called Jim and ask him about retiller and I think I flipped the tips . When asking him if yew liked heat he said he used heat on yew often. So you might just try some heat straightening. Arvin
Title: Re: Disappointment
Post by: DC on December 08, 2019, 09:21:00 am
I gave this a lot of thought last night and it occurred to me that I got the stave last Sept but I don't know when it was cut. It may still be drying a bit although Yew usually dries pretty fast. This one, being a branch, is pretty dense and may be taking it's time. I'll go with Dylan's idea and leave it for a while, maybe not a year, but long enough to watch it. I may put it in a plastic tube with a wet rag to drive the MC up and see if it's stable at all. Re doing the splice without losing too much length is going to be a trick but I've got time to think about that. I have a plan of sorts :D
Title: Re: Disappointment
Post by: sleek on December 08, 2019, 10:36:42 am
I gave this a lot of thought last night and it occurred to me that I got the stave last Sept but I don't know when it was cut. It may still be drying a bit although Yew usually dries pretty fast. This one, being a branch, is pretty dense and may be taking it's time. I'll go with Dylan's idea and leave it for a while, maybe not a year, but long enough to watch it. I may put it in a plastic tube with a wet rag to drive the MC up and see if it's stable at all. Re doing the splice without losing too much length is going to be a trick but I've got time to think about that. I have a plan of sorts :D

If you get sick of it, I will take care of it for you :)
Title: Re: Disappointment
Post by: Weylin on December 08, 2019, 11:33:19 am
  Yew is bad about that. It will often return to its shape after being corrected also.

This is what I've learned the hard way. There are some things you can do well with heat and yew and there are some things you cant. recurves and reflex usually work well. removing natural deflex and correcting serious alignment issues usually dont work well. It just wants to creep back.
Title: Re: Disappointment
Post by: bradsmith2010 on December 08, 2019, 12:30:56 pm
thats a beautiful bow,, I have seen you splice ,, given what they have said, splicing would probably fix it, though more work,, whats new,,,
I have a beautiful piece of yew I have been staring at for a year,, I am afraid of it,, even more now, I am not good at splicing,, (SH)
  please fix it so we can see it shoot,,,,, (-S

dont you think  you could do a fish tail without loosing length,,?
Title: Re: Disappointment
Post by: DC on December 08, 2019, 02:33:39 pm
You lose the length in the realignment. You can cut a fishtail and just put it back together and only lose a 1/4" or so but when you have to change the alignment it doesn't go back together nicely so you have to re cut one or both sides. You can get away with only losing an inch or so but then the fades start to get too close together.
Title: Re: Disappointment
Post by: Woodely on December 08, 2019, 02:47:11 pm
It seems like a lot of yew is under tension.  And once its manipulated either with steam or whatever it just wants to return to its originated shape.  Memory is memory.  A few years back I had some board material its was a full 2 3/4" thick and 8" wide I ripped it, and it went sideways in a big way.  On  the other hand I have a yew bow built from a stave and I did not steam it and it 's kept its original shape during all seasons.
Title: Re: Disappointment
Post by: bradsmith2010 on December 08, 2019, 08:47:10 pm
So does that mean u can do it (f)
Title: Re: Disappointment
Post by: Bryce on December 08, 2019, 10:17:51 pm
If you steam yew, afterwards you need to set it with dry heat.
Title: Re: Disappointment
Post by: DC on December 08, 2019, 11:15:19 pm
So does that mean u can do it (f)
I'll find a way

If you steam yew, afterwards you need to set it with dry heat.
This bow had more steam and dry heat than I care to remember. I'd never seen anything like it
Title: Re: Disappointment
Post by: bradsmith2010 on December 08, 2019, 11:57:21 pm
Maybe shim the splice,,.underlay and overlay,..so it looks good,, splice on a little extra to the tips...???   Its easy to think of this stuff,..especially when im not doing the work... :)
Title: Re: Disappointment
Post by: leonwood on December 09, 2019, 06:35:57 am
I do a lot of lateral bending with all kinds of wood and yew is the only one that is really stubborn and I had a few return to it's original shape after some time.

I don't know what glue you used for the splice but I have successfully steam bent an already spliced handle to align the string.
I steamed the handle for half an hour with a clamp holding the splice together and a pin through the wood (I use this for glue up also). Then bend the correction with some blocks and clamps and let cool and dry for a few days.
Obviously this destroys the glue so you have to re-glue the splice after all is dry
Title: Re: Disappointment
Post by: DC on December 09, 2019, 10:26:02 am
I use West Sys epoxy. The splice has three fingers. I tried to steam bend a handle once and the outside finger popped loose but the rest held. This left me in an awkward spot because I knew the glue was at least weakened but I still couldn't get it apart. I've shied away from steaming glued joints since then. I have read that if you get the temp right the epoxy will soften and give a bit and then harden back to it's original strength. Because of my multi finger joint I have extra gluing area so I can afford to loose a bit of strength. I like your idea of clamping the joint to keep it together. Maybe if I grind the handle flat, clamp it and bend it and then glue cheek pieces on it may work. The cheek pieces would have to be curved and that would be a pain. I might try this first because it still leaves me with the option of re splicing.

Has anyone taken apart an epoxied finger joint with heat, successfully? Maybe steam and a lot of wiggling?
Title: Re: Disappointment
Post by: bradsmith2010 on December 09, 2019, 11:37:49 am
nothing would pop loose,, if it was clamped ,, right???
Title: Re: Disappointment
Post by: DC on December 09, 2019, 12:14:16 pm
But if the glue weakened enough to pop loose is it compromised whether it is clamped or not? Depends on the temperature I guess. It would be really nice to know what kind of strain these joints are under although I'm not sure how I would put that knowledge to use ;D I really want to try something but I have to decide if the wood has settled down first. It's hard to clamp a bow repeatedly to take measurements. I suppose I could clamp it to a 2x4 in a measurable postion and leave it clamped but since I don't know where it's moving I'm not sure where to clamp it. Crap, I think to much ;D ;D
Title: Re: Disappointment
Post by: bradsmith2010 on December 09, 2019, 12:30:29 pm
yes I think just do something,, so we can see what happens,, (lol)
Title: Re: Disappointment
Post by: willie on December 09, 2019, 07:35:00 pm
Quote
This one, being a branch

Hmmm.  I recall reading somewhere about conifirs (living trees), having branches that liked to droop when dry and spread upward when it rained (to collect more moisture presumably). I even started a thread a few years back asking about this, and no one offered any observations in reply as I recall.

If so, perhaps branch wood tends to move more with humidity changes. I do know that there is reactionwood in branches because they grow horizontal, and if one does not take care with stave collection such that a bow ends up not having the reactionwood aligned properly, then the bow will tend to warp sideways if it was taken from the side of the treebranch
Title: Re: Disappointment
Post by: DC on December 09, 2019, 08:29:30 pm
I suspect that branches are a whole different can of worms. The wood can be so dense compared to trunk wood.
Title: Re: Disappointment
Post by: DC on December 21, 2019, 07:31:15 pm
OK plan made. I cut the splice apart with a saber saw to keep as much length as I can. I'm cutting wedges to fit in between the fingers and I'll glue it up so I have a solid piece to cut the new splice into. I was a little hesitant to fill it like that but I noticed that John Strunk suggested filling a less that optimal splices with pieces of wood. If it's good enough for John. You can see in one of the pictures how much out of line the fingers would be if I tried to hold the bow straight. I'll put a belly and back piece on after I get it stuck back together. I'll boil it and clamp the ends to get the best joints I can. Then let it dry and make the new splice.
Title: Re: Disappointment
Post by: DC on December 21, 2019, 07:34:07 pm
More
Title: Re: Disappointment
Post by: bradsmith2010 on December 22, 2019, 06:37:48 am
Wow that's look in great.,.Nice work...
Title: Re: Disappointment
Post by: Chief RID on December 23, 2019, 06:59:04 am
I am captivated. Amazing! :BB
Title: Re: Disappointment
Post by: DC on December 23, 2019, 10:08:54 am
I decided to glue on a cheek pieces to give me a little wiggle room. I also noticed that when I was trying to line it all up that I had to bend one of the tips a bit. Hope that doesn't come back to bite me. I might leave it over the holidays to rest. While I was steaming it, it loosened one of the tips. I was expecting that so I tried to take the tip off while it was hot. It wouldn't move. Sometime later it popped off. It's a special piece of Bighorn Sheep horn that Wizardgoat gave me. The two match so I have to find it in this mess. Wish me luck. I sure hope it fell off after I swept up and burned every thing.
Title: Re: Disappointment
Post by: bradsmith2010 on December 23, 2019, 10:46:27 am
Nice work (f)
Title: Re: Disappointment
Post by: DC on December 23, 2019, 11:02:33 am
Found it ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Disappointment
Post by: Chief RID on December 23, 2019, 05:20:55 pm
Whew! Glad you found it.
Title: Re: Disappointment
Post by: DC on December 23, 2019, 07:27:07 pm
I didn't think I'd be able to leave it sit either. ;D It seems to be OK. I'll wait until tomorrow to bend it to make sure the epoxy has cured. I lost 3/4" in length and I glued in about an inch of reflex so I will probably have to retiller some. The picture of the back shows that the fingers didn't quite meet so it's filled with some epoxy. That was because I put a little reflex in. It's about 1/16" thick at the end of the fingers. The belly pictures show how the new splice is off a bit because the bow had twisted a bit as well as bent. I might have to lengthen the handle a bit more.
Title: Re: Disappointment
Post by: bradsmith2010 on December 24, 2019, 08:48:30 am
Wow,,.nice job on that,,,I think its gonna a shoot )P(
Title: Re: Disappointment
Post by: burchett.donald on December 24, 2019, 09:14:39 pm
  Way to stick with it Don, nice work and patience!
Title: Re: Disappointment
Post by: bradsmith2010 on December 25, 2019, 08:28:41 am
Hope Santa gonna bring some arrows
Title: Re: Disappointment
Post by: DC on January 06, 2020, 12:35:22 pm
Just to bring you up to date. I had to do a little steam straightening but I had it so the string alignment was good just after Christmas. Then I got sick for ten days and then the family got together for a couple of days. So today I got to string it again. The string alignment is out by 2" again. I think this wants to be a walking stick. It's going in the corner of shame for a while.
Title: Re: Disappointment
Post by: bradsmith2010 on January 06, 2020, 12:56:44 pm
2 inches is not that much,,  :)  please not the corner of shame,, it will go to 3 inches if you put it there,, (-S
have you tried talking nice to it,,, :) bend each tip 3/4 inch,, you will be there,, ;D
Title: Re: Disappointment
Post by: Badger on January 06, 2020, 02:42:43 pm
   I have found with yew that steam is good to straighten and should either be left in a cawl for several weeks or set with heat after steaming.
Title: Re: Disappointment
Post by: DC on January 07, 2020, 12:23:15 am
It is out enough that it won't stay braced. It flips over. Could be that "parallel to the string" that you guys were talking about a few months back. I'll make another bow while I'm thinking about this. I've tried everything that has been mentioned except steaming it and leaving it on the caul for a few weeks. It seems to move with the changing RH.
Title: Re: Disappointment
Post by: bradsmith2010 on January 07, 2020, 09:24:15 am
Well,,I think you will get it,,.a few more weeks,,,maybe brace a bit higher,,,maybe it will line it self back up,,u never know,,.stranger things have happened )P(