Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: razorsharptokill on January 18, 2020, 07:40:09 am
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My 65lb @ 28" Osage selfbow is shooting a 611 grain arrow at an average 154 fps. The fastest out of 10 shots was 161 fps. I think that will do everything that I need it to. Thoughts?
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Jim, that will do everything you want it to do.
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I promised I would never chrono any selfbow a long time ago.
That's all you'll ever need to kill anything in this continent.
HH~
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Yes...
Also keep in mind a smaller fast flight..would probably put u 160's..I shoot a dacron for hunting,,.but sometimes for fun I test with fast flight,...the chrono is a great learning tool,..my main hunting bow,,.is pretty average speed...I have shot through deer,,and killed a fox,..what it lacks in speed it makes up in being deadly,,.I still love my chrono for testing...
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sounds like a great bow. I am kinda in Hedgehunter's camp, though. I like the way my bows shoot, and I don't really want to know how crappy they might be if I measured the speed. I don't have anything against chronos, I just choose to measure mine differently.
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Sounds good. Enjoy your bow. Jawge
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Got to learn how to set up the chrono! May do some testing at dry altitude, then the same equipment at MoJam! About 4,00 ft change into heavier air. It would be my luck that the weather here would be high humidity, then super dry at MoJam! May use Ol' Glass One as a control - I seriously doubt it is affected by humidity changes! (SH)(lol)!
Hawkdancer
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I loved my chronograph! Word to the wise here, don't try to shoot saboted bullets through them. Did I mentioned I loved my chronograph😢...
.Art
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Will B,and I built a 68 inch Osage self bow at 60 lbs at 29 inch draw that shot 155 fps with an arrow in excess of 600 grs, so your findings sound about right. Better bowyers could probably do better than that, but he had no problem shooting a nice buck with it this year.With that arrow mass at that speed your good to go.
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It's fast enough :)
I see a lot of this 'I don't chrono my bow because' etc.....it is what it is and always will be! Shooting an arrow and getting a reading doesn't change anything. It is always best to be totally honest about things and not let a few numbers hurt the ego haha. Examine why your feelings would change about a bow simply because a lower number turned up on a screen...
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I have had a chrono for 40yrs and never once shot an arrow from a selfbow thru it. Your absolutely right its just a number. Why bother just for a number?
Example, I was at farm yesterday. A fella brought in a west KY killed doe and it was the biggest doe I have see in a few years 141lbs dressed. I looked and it had a great shot made on it. My buddy says "what ya think about that shot? I replied preety dern good, no exit hole. He says yeah he killed with one of little all glass bows form Bear or Pearson when he 12yrs old!. Then I looked into chest cavity and was amazed"
if green small diameter hickory orelm staves worked for northeast coast natives I'm thinkin they were concerned more if their weapon was true and could kill. Not so much how fast the arrow left the bow. Killed a couple deer over last 20yrs with a selfbow. Killed a bunch with elm that the arrows were prolly only lethal on deer sized game to 15yds.
But, hey theres nothing wrong with sending arrows thru a chrono I see the wheel bow guys getting checked at every big 3D shoot all the time.
Shawn~
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I don't have a chrono. If I did I'd probably have to shoot a bow or two through it occasionally just out of curiosity. I wouldn't let those numbers worry me though. If you put your arrows in the right spot that's plenty enough razorsharptokill.
The only bow I've ever shot of mine through chrono was my third selfbow and the first bow I ever hunted with. It's a straight limb HHB 52@26" and I was really only drawing to about 24" maybe a tad less. My brother wanted me to show it to his buddy who owns a bow shop. He had chrono and I shot three 595 grain red osier arrows through it. Very consistent 129fps. I gotta admit that number worried me. Guys here told me it would work. A couple weeks later I found out with a double lung pass through and an beautiful blood trail. I'll take accuracy over speed any day. I don't know how fast or slow my bows are now. Sometimes I'm curious as I'm certain they are noticeably faster than the ones I started out making. I'm totally confident that they are all more than adequate to get the job done though.
Bjrogg
PS good clean arrow flight to. Get your arrows tuned to your bow. Do some bareshaft testing and get them to straighten out as fast as possible. Greatly improve your penetration.
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If the arrow flies straight and true at 15 yards and hits where I am looking I am happy.
I am more worried with how quiet the bow shoots. If it still makes a loud twang at release I dont want my deer to jump the string. My 45-50lb hickory hunting bow is dead quiet even without string silencers and it shoots where i look
I still want to invest in a chrono just for testing sakes. I also shoot guns so I and curious to the velocity of my carry guns
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+1 on that arrow flight bjrogg! If it's @ 300fps and wobbly it ain't diddly squat!
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I'm a speed freak so I chrono every bow. The thing to remember is that there are ideal conditions for chronoing. I made a shooting machine so the release is the same every shot. My manual release is inconsistent, so is my draw length(I'm a lousy shot) so if I manually shoot through the chrono I can get results that are 15-20 fps less than with my shooting machine. Manually, shots can vary a lot. If I shoot a group of ten arrows I will get ten different speeds, again with the 15-20 fps range. Through the machine, no more that 1fps difference for as many shots as I care to fire.
I may be an extreme example but I would say that if you can't get groups that are within 2-3 fps of each other then you're not getting good results and I wouldn't have a lot of faith in them. One good thing is that there is(as far as I can see) no way to cheat when shooting manually so the best result you get is probably closer to the real speed than the worst result you get. Don't average your shots. Take ten shots. The fastest one is probably the truest one and through a machine it would be faster.
There are some guys(very few) out there that can outshoot a machine and if you are one, pat yourself on the back and ignore this post. ;D ;D
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Its a useful tool,,. )P(
It helped me improve the bows I made..it was not so much about the speed,,,but improving the bow,,
When someone says,,,hey is 150fps with 500 grain arrow good for deer,,,I can give good advice,.based on bows I have hunted with and chronoed...
You can shoot a 50# bow that shoots like a 30# bow and kill a deer,,,,but I always wanted to shoot something reasonably efficient,,,or if I pulled 50#,,.get the most for my effort,,,I guess I was a little lazy,,,the chrono was easier than shooting for distance,,,and easier to compare to other bows...
Went I first started making bow I went to visit
Byron Ferguson,,.first thing he did was shoot it through a chrono,...guess that got me started
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Trying to understand? So, If yer a crappy shot, unless your shooting flight how does it help to know how fast an arrow hits the dirt?
I understand early and late weight. I tend to like shooting a bow that picks up weight mid draw to end (long arms). They are not as fast but they shoot better off my hand. One that has early string weight and gains weight about they same all way thru draw are more efficient and usually faster. In the end its the one that brings home food for the babies consistently is my bow I grab.
Shawn~
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I personally find the Chrono a valuable tool for perfecting a design , performance usually comes in small incremental changes paticurly with natural materials , it's great for monitoring mass reduction/performance changes & limb front view profiles as well as reflex changes , string angle Ect , it has made me a better bowyer in a shorter amount of time , it's not about whether my bow will kill a dear , all on the wall will do that ,it's about trying to get the most out of what I'm working on with out sacrificing durability !
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I did chrono one bow of mine years ago but the numbers were so discouraging I never did it again. After 30+ years of building and shooting wood bows I can tell from the first shot from a bow if it is a shooter or a good shooter. Either will do the job intended.
I'm not a tech guy, that's why I chose to make and shoot wood bows. I'm not against technology and I do appreciate folks that do study and implement technology to improve the cast and durability of a wood bow . It's just not for me.
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yes do what you enjoy about bow making,, like Geroge said,, no rules,, just enjoy,,
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Wheelbow shooter since the 70's and an avid one through the 80 and into the 90's. Chronoing your arrows was just part of the fun. Who's bow is faster, mine or yours? At some point radical cams, over draws and carbon shafts became the rage, and if speed was the goal, you either went with those mods or...yours was slower. I didn't like shooting an over draw nor severe cam wheels as they tended to degrade my accuracy. I stayed with full length aluminum shafts and more or less round wheel bows. I was not shooting arrows over 300 fps like some of my peers, but at 30 yards I could drill bottle caps...and my bows were quiet and therefore deadly. Chasing the fastest arrow speed was just no longer the goal...for me. Early to mid 90's I began the self bow journey and just getting a bow to hold together was a feat. My effective range on my target was 10 to 15 yards (that's giving me the benefit of the doubt). Quiet bows with good arrow flight became the quest for me. All these years later and I have not shot thru a chrono more than a handful of times but...I'm there. I believe I build a decent bow. Durable, quiet, decent looking, but can I tweak a limb tip and pickup a few fps. Is this width giving me the best results or can I go more narrow. Length? Design? Species? Ring thickness? Tempering? I am at a point where these questions are on my mind. I'm not doing it to see if I am faster than my buddy. I am curious to see if I can tweak the next one just a tad and make it faster than the last one. It's somewhat the next frontier for me in my bow making. Maybe even one of the last frontiers. But it's a frontier that I spent some time on some decades ago...and using a chrono then made me a better shooter, as I was more focused on having everything perfectly tuned for maximum effect. I think that's what I am after now.
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things learned and shared by guys flight shooting and chrono work,, help us make a better bow,,
I dont really need one now,,, so many have shared info,,
If I make a bow,, and it does not have too much mass,, its about the right length,, the draw is about right for the length,, and it holds a nice unstrung profile,, tips are reasonable,, it will shoot pretty good through a chrono,, wether you test it or not,, you can pretty much guess how its gonna shoot,, and I do quite often when a friend is making a bow,, I can get pretty close to hows its gonna shoot,,,
if the bow is too long,, has 3 inches of string follow,, its probably not a real hard shooter for its draw,, but if its accurate,, and say 60# bow,, it will make a good hunter,,
and never need to test it,,, it just depends on what the archer wants to do,,
when I make a bow for someone,, I gonna test it,, its like the final quality check,,it has to perform well, or I wont send it,,
if its my own personal bow I may not,, unless one of my bow friends wants to know how it shoots,,,
I shot at a nice buck couple of years ago,, with a bow I did not test,, it had no string follow and was about 60#,,,nice easy shot,, hit him righ in the horns,, It had enough speed to send pieces of arrow all over the place,, I still need to sand the rasp marks out of that bow,,
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Like I said, I'm a speed freak. I'm not a hunter. They are two different parts of the same hobby. For a hunter, comfort, repeatability and dependability are where it's at. Speed comes in fourth, at best. For me speed comes first. Always has, always will. When I made my second slingshot when I was a boy it had to be better(faster) than the first or there was no point making it.
Some of us are built like that. At least I hope there's others ;D ;D
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Yep, speed is always just as high in the picture for me.
Why wouldn't one want to get the best of all possible characteristics?
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Why wouldn't one want to get the best of all possible characteristics?
Yes, of course, but if I have to sacrifice something, speed will be the last thing :D
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I won't go that far. But to discount arrow speed as unimportant is simply ignoring a pretty crucial component in all this.
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Why wouldn't one want to get the best of all possible characteristics?
Yes, of course, but if I have to sacrifice something, speed will be the last thing :D
My point was that speed does not have to be sacrificed.
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Agreed. I was just accenting my priorities :D
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I agree sped doesn't sacrifice accuracy , but it's a whole combination of things that makes a good bow to me , but one of these days I want to make a HH style follow bow ,I shot one before and it was one of the most docile bows I ever shot but probably in the 160s fps at my long draw but a tac driver !
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I was simply answering Jim's question from my personal experience. I believe he wants to hunt with his bow and a 611 grain arrow with good arrow flight moving at 155fps hitting the vitals is everything he needs. As long as he likes everything else about the bow. That's plenty for hunting.
I agree with DC though. Everyone is different. Some people like a good old farm truck. Some people like a Lamborghini. Some people like something in between. Some people like a really fast farm truck.
I think most of us like fast bows and strive to make them. If I had a chrono I'm sure I'd fling some arrows through it. It would be interesting. I doubt it would have much effect on what I thought was a good bow or a bad bow though. That I just need to shoot it to know.
Bjrogg
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Id like to Echo Pat B's sentiments as well.
I was givin a bow when i was young,that was made by my grandfather,long before i was born.This bow had been well used by the time i got it,but it was a sure enough, Native style bow and i was damn proud of it.I took a lot of smaller game with it and a few deer with it as well..Had the internet been in existence and i read what people say nowdays,concerning bow efficiency,i would have thought that bow,was a piece of junk..I was later,givin a laminated bow made with that material,that shall not be mentioned and made by a well known manufacturer..It was a speed demon for sure,but it felt harsh in my hand and i wasnt near as accurate with it,as i was the old bow,so it never hunted..
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When I first started coming around here I made this Mohegan hickory/sinew bow , I was very proud of it and it was much better then all my previous attempts I thought it was a rocket launcher so one day I shot it threw the Chrono & it only hit 154fps 11.5 gpp ,I was totally deflated and the guys around here told me it was plenty fast enough to kill a dear but really I thought they where being kind , never killed a dear with it but I was shooting on the side of my house and skipped a arrow off the bag and it went completely threw my thick PVC fence gate into the back yard, but it put my mind right how deadly a slow bow could be !
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I have used a chrony for ever. Tested for guys with crossbows , rifles, shotguns, 22's, recurves, self bows, air rifles ,etc. Good tool, and a hobby unto itself.I would not be with out one.
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If I am testing a bow that reads say 175 fps with 10 grains for speed I will get a much lower reading when I use my hunting or target style release. Typically that would drop down into the low 160's. I draw a little shorter and hold at full draw a little longer. I also don't get off the string as fast as when testing.
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Nobody has mentioned ERR messages. The main reason I made the shooting machine in the first place was constant ERRs. Some days I could shoot ten shots in a row and get nothing but ERR. I wrote it off too my lousy form etc. I did manual in the backyard and I've got the machine set up in the shop about 100ft away. Maybe some day I'll set the machine up in the backyard and see if it was me. I think I've had one ERR since I started using the machine.
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I have tried to make my hunting release more like my testing release,, the chrono is a good teacher,,
as far as err,, I think sometimes the light has a major effect on that, and bad release too,,
the more I used the chrono,, the more consistant my readings were and the less err,, I got,, I think it just takes some practice ,, or a shooting machine would be great too,,
I usually get quite a few duplicate shots,, so I think I am getting better,,
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If you bare shaft your bow, and get it shooting with a fletched arrow ,in other words tuned ,and your form stays good while testing you should get no errors ,and your readings should be pretty consistent. And as the Badger says their are ways of jumping fps. I shoot my made bows the same as I hunt with them. Watch Dave Mead on utube . He shows ways of jumping fps with different shooting styles.Flight shooters seem to know those little tricks, and use them to their advantage.
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Of course dynamic release is faster than a more static release. The dynamic release with seflbow can work but for repeatability in different weather conditions I would not use the it. you'll gain a little speed but by time you out 15-25yds its not enough to tout as being a plus. Just pull thru your shot and don't go full static and selfbow will do everything one needs to get out of it.
HH~
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Honestly it feels so unnatural for me to hold full draw for more than 1 second. I just aim as I draw and pull through. Practice practice practice.
I want to get a chrono just to map my progress with wood bows. I know right now they arent any speed demons by any means but I want to start fight shooting one day so a chrono will come in handy.
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I think the chrony is a great tool to have for the bow builder. I shoot every bow i make through the chrony to get an accurate gauge of how my bows are doing and how I can improve the designs.
While I try not to get too caught up with bow speed, I still think it is a great tool to judge bow design and efficency.
Cheers
Taylor
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Yep,,.and keeping a log,,is great for reference,..
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One of the biggest lessons I have learned from using the Chrono is when you reached a certain thresh hold on speed for a given design any gain from there only comes in small incremental changes and if you go to far you ruin the durability of the bow , but there is no magic with bow speed there is only so much FPS in any given design & with wood bows that are under built they tend to be fast for the first 400 arrows and quickly deteriorate from there ,I disregard fresh numbers on any bow tell at least 400 arrows & then you know the true speed of the bow ! But some of my osage bows actually gained speed after setting a couple years draw weight too !
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Great points on both sides of the issue. I have been considering curving the tips on this bow to see if I could coax a few more FPS out of it. I get this "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" voice in my head though. This bow will kill anything that I would ever hunt so yes, it is fast enough.
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A chronograph is a great tool for judging arrow and bow compatibility. For example, I tested a set of 6 cedar arrows, four weighed in the 480's and two weighed in at exactly 522 gr. Shooting out of a 41# Osage bow, the 480's clocked in with a 145 average speed. The two 522 gr clocked in at 167 FPS.
So, sometimes a chronograph will tell you more about your arrows than your bow...
...Art
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A chronograph is a great tool for judging arrow and bow compatibility. For example, I tested a set of 6 cedar arrows, four weighed in the 480's and two weighed in at exactly 522 gr. Shooting out of a 41# Osage bow, the 480's clocked in with a 145 average speed. The two 522 gr clocked in at 167 FPS.
So, sometimes a chronograph will tell you more about your arrows than your bow...
...Art
I don't think you conducted a valid test for comparing the arrow speeds. I have never seen a heavier arrow shoot faster. You should have registered about a 5 fps difference in the arrows with the lighter being the fastest.
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Yeah, it doesn't sound right does it Steve. But I did recheck the arrow's and bow's weight and then shot group after group and the numbers didn't change. Not only that day but other days as well. Perhaps those two arrows were very well tuned to the bow than the others. This is the only time I've ever noticed that great a difference in a set of arrows. Only thing different was that this bow was an unusual bow build from all others that I'll built over the years....Art
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It would be interesting if you could figure out what caused the difference. Maybe spine?
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That particular set of cedar arrows were sanded down from 65# to 50#. I footed them while I was at it. Also somewhat full tapered.
Spine was the same on all of then. Only difference was there physical weight.
I think those two arrows were a near perfect match to that particular bow. Where the other four arrows, although lighter in weight, just didn't jive with the bow...
...Art
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a 20 fps increase does not seem possible,, with heavier arrows,, never seen that
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I agree with you Brad. It doesn't seem possible...
..but it did happen! Perhaps I just happen to hit upon that sweet spot with a bow and arrow combination...
...Art
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Is it possible that the lighter arrows were oscillating more and at a distance that made them go through the chrony at an angle. Making a longer disntace between posts. Which will give a slower reading due to a longer time between the sensors. Unlikely, but maybe.
Kyle
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There's roughly 15% between 167 and 145. 15% of a 30" arrow is 4.5". The only thing I could see would be the faster arrows triggering on the leading edge of the fletching but that would not be consistent at all. The window (sweet spot) of the chrono is only 3/4" wide on my Chrony and maybe a bit wider on my Caldwell so going through at an angle really doesn't do much. I don't know if that window flares out much as you go up though. Chronos are pretty fussy about how the arrow goes through. I would think that anything angled enough to make any difference would trigger an ERR.