Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Ricardovanleeuwen on February 17, 2020, 02:16:31 pm
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Here are a few pictures of my (lol)second bow, this time a elm pyramid bow. My first bow wich came out under weight failed after i Fell asleep wile streaming the tips and the cooking pot went dry resulting in one tip charred all the way through (lol)
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I'm not exactly sure what stage you're at with it based on the pictures. if you've got it bending I'd consider rounding those edges over so you don't invite a splinter to pop up. If you do have it bending then showing a picture of the bow at full brace or pulled out to the distance you've taken it will help us judge the tiller. Don't crank it out past it's intended draw weight or past any obvious problems just for the benefit of a picture though.
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At the first photo its pulled at the long string and then i put a thin (red) rope between the tips and i think this is brace Heights. About rounding off the edges, do you mean the edges at the belly or at the back?
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Round over all sharp edges.
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Thanks, i will do, wat you think about the bend at the moment? I can stick my fist between the handle and red line
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Right limb appears to be stiff outboard especially. Left limb is stiff near the fade (right limb as well just less so). Hard to tell much with it only braced, but you wanted an opinion, so that’s mine. The limb should bend evenly from fade to stiffened tip. Easy to check that with a 4 inch straight edge. Run it along the belly while braced. If one area has a gap, and another does not, the the area that does not is not bending enough. The gap needs to be the same all along the limb. Then it’s right.
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Finaly got the limbs evenly bending, reached that point halfway to my drawlenght. But one limb took about 2 inch of set and the other maybe 1. At the moment i am Heat Tresting the limb without most set with a weight on the other end of the bow to try to put it a bit in reflex again. After that il do the other limb and try to give it the same amount.
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The straight edge should be used before brace to get the limbs bending right. Once they are right at 2 inches, go to 3 or 4. Once right at 3 or 4, go to brace and get it right. Heat temper before all this so that you eliminate some of the damage. Once the set occurs, the limb will lose a little umph. Once it is right at brace, go an inch or 2 farther. By now, the limbs will be really close to right without any major weak areas wanting to give up under the strain (taking set). Dont pull past any of these points in time without the tiller being perfect. Do that all the way to full draw an inch or 2 at a time. Your bow will show you the love. Get both limbs equal with one another in my opinion, so far as side profile goes.
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I used a tillering Gizmo till i got it bending evenly, then i did even scrapes and also even amount of scrapes on Both limbs but quite a lot because i was sure alot of Wood needed to remove to reach draw lenght but after that it was bending almost only at one limb. I checked the thickness and with of Both limbs and the one that bends less was already thinner and same width. So i scraped more of and still almost no difference so i even took out my angle grinder and sanded off alot , then removed the marks with a scraped and hand sanded it off and it was finaly matched after a few more scrapes. Then i bendes the limb so the set was also the same ( not sure if that's right but seemed logic to me) now i wait till the first limb Cools down get the other one matched
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That sounds right. Pics would help. The thinner limb should not normally be the stronger limb obviously. Sometimes it just ends up that way for various reasons. Should not be much difference between them if they are the same length and width.
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The limb came out better then i hoped before i starters ( wasnt really a believer in dry Heat bending) but i managed to get 4 or 4 1/2 inch of reflex first one, waiting for the second one to cool down now. I hope it doesn't get spring back when i measure Them again tomorrow.
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Oké i took the bow out of the vice ( left door open while i took a walk with my dog so it cooler down fast) and the second limb has about 1 inch less reflex. Can i zand it down a bit and te Heat it or shall i wait to see what it do on the tiller tree because they maybe end up the same after tillering? By the way, the left limb was the one that took much set but also is reflexed more atm
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4 inches of reflex is a lot. If you ended up with 3” on that limb, I would relax the other to Match (with heat gun). A caul or form of some kind makes matching them up easier. 2x4, 2x6 sanded you get the angle you want. If they are not symmetrical it is harder to get the tiller right.
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I always readed that most working recurves always straighted up after time and the amount of set IT took before reflexing Them was to much for me to be happy with im planning to make a coul but im short of construction Wood. Also searching for A pipe, big enough in diameter and long enough to atleast fit half of a bow in so i can boil a limb to bend in the future
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Working recurve would definitionally be recurved tips that work. I have never had one hold much reflex after a while. Reflex along the limb is a different animal. It will hold up (better). Suggestion would be don’t go for a recurve, working or otherwise on your second bow. Keep it simple. Get one with a fairly straight side profile finished and shooting. That’s a challenge in itself. Heat the limbs to get them symmetrical with one another. Add a bit of reflex if you wish but keep it modest. Once you ride a bike without running through the fence, then you can think about Motocross. Everything on these self bows is measured in small increments. Everything. Start with something fairly straight forward and begin adding things like recurves and reflex in those same small increments a little at a time. Everything you do on these bows has a positive and a negative. The secret is to maximize the positive and minimize the negative. Big moves may work, but they may also result in negative performance...or a broken bow.
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I finished the tiller in my opinion, you guys probably Will see some flaws but for my second one ik happy with it. This one is atleast not under the weight i hoped for. I Just got a scale since yesterday and it pulled on a scale for humans on a tiller stick 30 kilo( wich is about 66 lbs) at 24 inch draw. I did shoot An Arrow and missed the target (not that i evver shot a bow before but i think it is because of too stiff Arrow (lol) ) but i could barely pull the point out of a tree
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Here is a picture of the first flemish string i made, one loop and a bowyers knot still, going to make the second loop after i found the correct lenght
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It looks like you may have cut through the back to make the string nocks- did you? If so, don't do that again- it may cause the bow to break. If you did cut the back, you may want to re-do the tips. (shorten the bow by an inch and retiller a little. Also, the tiller is pretty stiff in the outer limbs- a pyramid is typically tillered to bend evenly through out it's length. Good job getting a shooter, though. Welcome to the Journey!
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Isnt that the way to do It (the string nock)? Or should i have used side nocks? I always was Thinking that tip overlays are only for real Skinny tips. I dont got Anny Horn or what evver, would It make a difference if i put a few thin layers of hide glue on It so the string doesn't cut in the tips farther?
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No, thats not how to do it. Im pretty surprised no one noticed this. Side cuts are ok, but never across the back. You can cut thru a tip overlay but not into the back. I dont think glue will help. Sorrry to break itto you, but in my opinion you have to shorten and retiller. This wont be too hard and it will let you get the outers working more. I hope someone else will chime in on this.
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No, thats not how to do it. Im pretty surprised no one noticed this. Side cuts are ok, but never across the back. You can cut thru a tip overlay but not into the back. I dont think glue will help. Sorrry to break itto you, but in my opinion you have to shorten and retiller. This wont be too hard and it will let you get the outers working more. I hope someone else will chime in on this.
Yeah... maybe add an overlay??? you would need to do some stuff that i know, but i really have a super hard time explaining stuff.
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Would stacked rawhide be a good option? And what glue would be good? Hide glue or Carpenter glue?
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I would use Carpenter glue for no sinew backing. Its easier to use
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Any hard wood will work for an overlay. Chose one with a contrasting colour make the glue joint easier. Depending on how deep you cut you grooves you may not have to shorten the bow. Excuse the poor drawing black is old, red is new overlay.
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No, thats not how to do it. Im pretty surprised no one noticed this. Side cuts are ok, but never across the back.
I disagree. I have made bows with nocks cut like this and they were fine. For a splinter to lift the wood needs to be bending. If you tiller the bow so the last 6+ inches do not bend, the wood right at the tips where the nocks are will not be under strain and there will be no reason for a splinter to lift. I suspect these nocks will be fine left just as they are.
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It doesn't have to bend to separate at the groove. For a fun experiment, try this. Grab a 1 x 1 x 24" piece of pine board with mostly straight grain. Tie a small rope around one end and tie the other end to anything strong. Pull on it like a fishing rod with a fish on the end, give it 15-20# of pressure, it wont break easily. Now, cut a small notch out of the end of that stick and tie the string to that portion and pull. It will separate almost instantly. That's why we use overlays or just cut grooves in the sides only. The way I see it, we strive throughout a build to make the most durable bow we can, why cut corners with string grooves? It would be a shame to have a great bow split because you cut one corner in the build.
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I think DC's picture above is the best approach to this. Note that this involves an angled cut in the bow tip. Eric has had success with bows made this way, and I'm surprised they held- I guess I learned something today. Ultimately, it's up to you. If you so some searches on here you will find many types of nocks, but I bet you'd have trouble finding any cut across the back.
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Thanks for all the answers, im working on tip overlays from black locust. Now testing 3 kinds of glue, contact glue ,carpenters glue and hide glue.
@DC is there Anny advantage of cutting the tips at An angle for the overlays or is It Just for the looks? As i der It its kind of the same as i have now because you also damage the back. Thank you annyways for the illustration. In sure the bow can handle the shorter lenght because i Will tiller It so a bit more limb Will bend. Pics comming in a fiew days , as i Will first test the glues before i try It on my bow. Between this time il going to unbend some sticks ::) (shafts)
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In a lot of cases I think the angle is for looks but in your's its a way of keeping length. I always thought like you did that the angle was the same as cutting a notch but it's not. That flat bottom of the overlay holds down the potential splinter is about the best I can put it.
On a normal selfbow there is a crown and to avoid the possibility of splintering it has to be cut at least a shallow angle so the overlay captures all the "fibre ends". Almost the only time you could have the overlay flat on the back is with a board bow.
Hope that's clear. Didn't sound very clear to me ;D ;D
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This bow is Elm which tends to not want to split very easily.
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Hmmm now. I cant make a decision, i kind of trust the nocks with this bow because of 1: what pat m says, its elm.
And 2: i have quite thick tips with as in my opinion shallow groves so that the string Just fills it, i also burnished the groves . Oh and the growth ring of the back is really thick, i didn't go past the first ring.
But on the other hand, if It Do fail i Will really blame myself for not maling overlays.
The point is... I Just wanna shoot😅
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You can always put a spline in instead of an overlay. But a v or just a wider slot and fit in a piece of horn, bone or hardwood.
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You can also wrap the tips just under the nocks with thread or sinew, then impregnate the wrapping with a waterproof glue like Titebond III. That will give you extra security, though I do not think you would need it with an elm bow of this design.
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Decided to do overlays because of you nevver try anything, you wil nevver learn something. So i sawed Both tips at a light angle Just until the groves and rasped,scraped It Just past It. The flattened surface is maybe a bit long but i dont trust the small tear drop sized overlays yet. I did made some overlays before i cut the tips, but those were a bit too thin in my opinion. I made An other one and liked the rounded recurves like curve that i gave It by accident. So i think il make the other one Just like that if It isnt a bad Idea. Here are a few pictures. By the way sorry for all the mess that is always in the pictures but i have to live and work on bows (mostly work on bows 😂) in this 4x4 meter room
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Perfect.
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Yup
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I glued the first overlay on, now doing second one. While i took the clamp off the first tip i Saw that there is a Tiny edge not glued.
Should i remove this tip and re do It, fill with watery hide glue or sand the limb smaller till past the gap
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OK take this with a grain of salt because my experience with Osage is very limited. I think the wood should have been oriented so the grain/ring lines are vertical. I've always been suspicious of early wood and I'm afraid it might split off. I always try to make the grain vertical no matter what kind of wood I use but I think it matters more with some woods than others.
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Ah, i hope It Will Stay, its black locust by the way, not sure If its the same with the growth ring stuff.but we will find out
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Locust is similar to Osage as far as the early wood/late wood thing is concerned. I'm hoping someone else will comment on the ring orientation.
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Ricardo, mighty fine. Looks like you are enjoying the bow making process. Jawge
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Yes, It is basically all i do in my sparen time.. i did throw my tv away because It took in too much work space ;D
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This morning i cut my hand where my indexfinger connects to my hand and It had to be stitched, so even if i Will finish my bow today i wont be able to shoot It... :'(. I Am planning to taken the overlays off because the grain should be on vertical as above is told so i would like to make some better looking overlays because il have time for that. I have a question about Woods to use. Would hawthorn be good because i find that the Burls of It can have some Nice looking pieces. N other question is if i find a trunk of hardwood, but the trunk is decayed for A big part, would the inside, where its still hard be suitsble for overlays?
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Look for wood that doesn't split easily. I would think that burls would be great but I've never done anything with a burl. As I said before contrasting colour makes glue lines disappear :D. One to avoid is Peruvian Walnut or Brazilian Walnut(they are sold interchangeably in some stores). I've had two failures with it. I use thick CA to glue them on and haven't had a failure. Some swear by epoxy.
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Soo i went on a walk with my dog and had my mind set on hunting Burls, i searched the internet if locust had Burls, they sayd they had and the Wood would be one of the most dense Woods u could find. So i went to a small forest full of black locust and found a death tree withmultiple Burls on It. And hard is was... The Saw i had with me was sawing like im trying to cut bricks with It, and it is, or was a verry Sharp Saw. I Will cut one of the Burls into roughed overlay shape, seal It and Will boil It to speed up drying, the other ones i will seal and let normal dry for future overlays or handles for bows or knives. I also found a death tree with verry thick growth ring ,as far as i have seen yet 1 Will pick It up in a few hours.
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You can use a microwave to dry them. Start with 15 sec. See how hot they get and let them cool. Repeat. Check them regularly to make sure they don't get to hot.
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First micro wave try was bout 8 seconds and the Wood checked already
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Your grain orientation for your overlays is correct. I have put them on about 150 bows that way, the only two I had split was when I had a string slip out of one side of the nock putting all the pressure on the other side.
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I spend the whole freaking day in making matching fit on the new ones wich was for some reason a pain in the ass. I hope these ones wont pop off.. if they do il make this bow a beautifull 60 inch shortbow with some beautifull side nocks ;D
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What part of it is giving you problems? Is it the gluing surface or are you trying to match the shape?
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Yes , the first set was almost in 1 try and these kept having a Tiny gap in the middle, also It took ages to het the top one and the Bottom one the same size and when i had 2 of the same, there appeared to be a crack in one so had to start over. Maybe It was some bad luck.
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I have a belt sander so that helps a lot but I still true up the gluing surfaces with sandpaper glued to a flat stick. I do most of the shaping after it's glued to the bow.
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This is how the first overlay looks so far, i hope i get the second one the same but after that i dont really know how to shape Them further.
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Looks good! Shape is pretty much up to you :D Go look at pictures of bows. Most people post a tip picture when they post their bows.
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Cool
HH~
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Finnished shaping the tips today (maybe going to make the overlays hollow,from the side view to make Them lighter) after all im happy with how they came out. But im still affraid they Will pop off because i dont trust glue yet, because i nevver worked with glue before. I Will see tomorrow. i Am going to make a new string because the first one was Just a try out, ordered An second collor and extra string wax so the bundels stick together better. Here are some pictures.
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I would have put the nock I little closer in, maybe 6 mm or so from where it is but that's just personal taste. I've seen them with the nock cantilevered out past the end of the bow. The little piece of wood on the outer end looks fragile to me. A little bump and that could break off. That wouldn't affect anything but appearance though. Good job.
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Nice look to your tips Richardo.Doing tips with overlays for me is also a time consuming process.Balancing them out to look exactly like each other.
My ancestory goes back to the netherlands also.
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Then you all have been lucky that something happend that you live in America now haha. Going to tiller It a bit more because one limb was bending a bit more, maybe because tips are not that even maybe?
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You got that right.You must be listening to the fake news though.I do feel lucky to live in America.
Tips should'nt have much bearing on your tiller if your tiller was good previously.
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I dont listen to the news, i throw the tv away and dont listen to radio music because i hate the advertising in It. I always liked It how It is in Amerika because when o was younger i was into falconry and Read alot on usa forum and the pictures of real nature you got there and the laws about hunting, also lot more people live off grid
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That's good to hear.The mainstream media news is a bunch of BS.There is a lot more people wanting to live off the grid nowadays.As for myself I try not to depend on technology too much.
We've got a sustainable population of wild game we can hunt with enjoyment if we abide by a few laws and do some proper game management.
You'll have to show us your bow later all dressed up.Looks like your doing a good job so far.
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Not sure what you mean bij dressing up, i assume string It? I made a new string with the second collor and made a double loop flemish string and put serving on, not sure if i should Serve the loop ends? But here is the braced pic