Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Horn Bows => Topic started by: simk on March 26, 2020, 07:05:50 am
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Hi Folks
Back in December I was about to tiller a Hazel bow in my standard design. Alone it came a little light - measured 9# @ 26". I then tought about backing it with sinew and strengthen the belly a little with horn. Now that was quite a journey...first you have to do the right things and then you need to do the things right - sounds easy, but this crooked hazel stave had a few traps and hints ready for my on this path. finally it was all successfully defeated - glad to have a shooting bow. nut sure if you're interested in the full story.
Cheers
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;D
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;D
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8)
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Hang on, hazel?! As in Corylus? I am VERY interested in the whole story, as I understood things, corylus is compression poor and prone to crysals if over-bent. I have a perfect hazel stave 60" long and a pair of horn strips waiting for a core that I have so far failed to find. Need details pleeease!!!!!!
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Very nice Simk!
Unhh, you left a loose thread on the handle. Don't know if you noticed it ;D ;D
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wait so it was just as easy as sinewing the back (evenly) and then just strengthening the belly with horn???
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Yes, Stuckinthemud, Hazel. It's not my invention tough; a friend of mine did many like this and they are working fine for years now. He also did scyths with Hazel. Nut sure if also used on more stressed designs like turkish, etc... Just make a weak bow with main bending zone of about 8" and bring it to an even thickness of about 6-7mm. Then glue horn and sinew...
Thanks DC, just remarked this too now?!?! What the heck... :o
Exactly Deerhunter21, just as easy ;D
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I have some questions, if its ok. How long are the levers? How did you get the sinew that colour? Did you steam in the reflex or pull it in as the sinew cured?
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stuckinthemud: levers are around 30cm (12") - after tillering i reflexed on a caul. on that same caul I glued the horn. this gave her about 10" reflex. thats also what remains after shooting. sinew put the reflex initially to 16". Now it returs still to14" within 3 days. ;D
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Very impressive, nicely done 👍🏻
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Nicely done simk.Depending on how thick of sinew you put on there in all probability it'll gain a little draw weight yet in the next year.Good performance out of your bow too.I'd be interested in what the mass weight of your bow is also.
I've got a honeysuckle stick at 1 and 5/8" diameter that's sawn in half length wise leaving it full round at handle.It had a pith also.It is very long though.Was saving it for a try at a hollow limb bow but now you got me thinking....Ha Ha.It has a specific gravity of close to .90.
How big circumference was your hazel?I've heard and would bet it does that hazel takes a heat treatment very well making it a bit harder.
I did a specific density test on hazel some time ago but have forgotten what it was.I'm pretty sure it was at least .60.
So if I got this right your saying it shows 10" reflex after shooting from 14" starting reflex?How long was brace time?
PS....Good success story!!! Looks good and sound.
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Sweet :)
How did you glue the horn to such a thin limb?
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Thank you SS (-S looking forward to some new stuff from you soon!
ED: Thank you and guess who was first to inspire me to do such a bow? The pics of your badly reflexed elm composite were just burnt into my mind since ;D the bow is incl. heavy grip and soaked wrappings and 8 Strands of BCY452X 535gramms. Naked around 500.
That honeysuckle idea sounds nice. Since its very dense and tough you can go slimmer on the levers. The hazel wood seems quite light to me and likes heat treating - I gave her a medium one... bow is quite slim 35mm => 26mm in the bending zone and it has a crowned back. Correct about the reflex. It was maybe strung 4-5 hours and shot few arrows. In total it has maybe 200 arrows now. I think the bow still has to settle in a bit.
Thank you bownarra. I have my caul... :BB
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So yea you reduced the mass weight considerably.So tell me what do you think of your bow and how it shoots?For glueing I'm assuming you used a type of epoxy to glue?Maybe titebond3?
I think bow your referring to is a hickory core bow and 58" long.16.50 ounces or 466 grams bare bones that now pulls around 50#'s @ 28".
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What you mean by "reduced the mass weight considerably"? I'm not an experienced shooter but to me it seems to be drawing very smooth for the given draweight. accurracy is good and the arrows seem considerably faster than what I'm used to with wooden bows. I havent done fd flight shots now but im sure it will top my wooden bows easily. top limb is glued with casting resin lower with ready to use canadian fish glue. Really hope it will last long and not blow up!
I havent got that pictures anymore nor the link. Its on the forum here somewhere, could be 2018. You also showed the reflexed core before glueing horn. I thought it was elm. Had a very long horn strip (gemsbk?) but shorter levers.
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Ha Ha...yea I mean just that.The overall mass weight of your bow is very low for it's poundage and draw length and weight according to Steve Gardners mass weight theory.What kind of horn did you use on yours?Sweet looking full draw profile.
OK that one was 60" long and hickory again.With 8" levers.That one ended up around the same mass weight but @48#'s.Least that's the last time I checked it.Those two bows show around 2" of soft set after 8 hours of bracing and shooting.Returning to original reflex in a neutrally warm area in a couple of days.I believe your bow is working in a shorter working area on each limb than mine @ 8" per limb.Mine are working around a 12" length on each limb.They clock pretty good through the chrono and decent on the flight range but I think they should do better.
Were you the fella who asked how I glued the horn up onto the fades?I showed a curved chunk of leather padded wood.I remember now.
You can bet your last dollar it'll shoot better than your self bows.
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before i took down again the first two (waterbuffalo)horns and thinned the core it pulled 42# @ 18" and felt like its just gonna blow up anytime. i tillered the horn down, took sinew down, hinged it, broke the core a little where i removed too much sinew - pure stupidity. fixed the core, put new horns on. put a fresh layer of sinew on the back. then: bracing it, one horn strip comes off...seems to be somehow too cold in the shop for proper glueing. i was annoyed then and took the resin and some suspect horn strip for a last try.... >:( (-S
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Yikes....You earned this one.Congratulations!!!!You did your steps properly.Enjoy....and in time you'll trust it more and more.I used smooth on epoxy,but believe hide glue would work good too but needs more pressure wrapping than epoxy I think.Anyway I think I'll use smooth on again anyway.The thickness taper has to be spot on.
I found out to make more it's all about the thickness and width of limbs estimating draw weight during construction of more bows like that.Bownarra helped out with that too.Referring to those I had made that are finished and constructing them very close to that.Chances are your next will go a lot smoother.
The thicker the horn and the more the reflex the more instability it may have in the beginning,but it'll take less set then too.A person has to be a lot more patient tillering these than anything else.Dividing the core as around 40 or even 50 percent of total thickness with the rest of percentage divided evenly helps it be more stable.Does'nt seem to hurt performance any either.
I doubt very much these kind of bows will explode on you if glueing is done properly.Although I'm sure someone will have a case that's different of a bad experience but then something else I'm sure was drastically wrong along the way of constructon.Rather they sort of crumble and give in showing out of tiller before breaking.
Personally the only wood I'm afraid of just plain blowing up on me after torturing it on the tillerng tree is my local red cedar.It's dangerous....Ha Ha.Unless it's backed good.I've had some memorable explosions on the tillering tree with that stuff.
I broke a beaut of a horn bow a few months ago that was a dandy and already a bow.I waited over a year to tiller that one.It was 60" long and pulling 48#'s @ 28" and I barely removed 80 grains of horn to get it that way.I was shooting it in.I had my taper really close to spot on with that one.Mass weight was spot on too.Had around 300 arrows through it.It was settling in fantastic.With 14" of resting reflex and shooting at 12" of reflex after 6 hours.I broke it stringing it up on the peg board.Totally my fault.
More than likely I'll get around to making another.Got some more hickory and ironwood and plenty of horn and sinew.
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Yup, blood sweat and tears. Still I enjoyed the build until the glue failure...
Yup, basically all you need is a good caliper and a few grains of black magic ;D it really helps to do a good documentation about thicknesses during the build. Its all about thicknesses, right.
I'd die for a nice piece of that juniper.
Sorry for your loss. How can you brake one on the peg? Did it a flip?
I parallel started a backup one - its ash - lets see if I get lucky again :BB
Cheers
By the way - I wouldn't use that heavy honeysuckle for hornbow - better show us one hld type bow. it only ads mass to the bending zone. And also for stability of the levers it might be better to have a more voluminous wood.
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simk...Lets see.how can I explain this in the least amount of words.....Hard to remember exactly but here goes.....On my peg board I C clamp the handle down onto the saddle while pulling 1 limb down to a peg alternating limbs every 2 inches to brace height.This time I used 2 C clamps.I pulled 1 limb down to first peg.Now mind you a lot of pressure is there as you know.I usually recheck my C clamps to see if they are tight.I did'nt.I pulled the other limb down to it's first peg.One of the C clamps was'nt tight enough and fell off leaving only 1 C clamp on only 1 side of the handle.Before I knew it there was an extreme bend in the outer part of limb that I just pulled to it's first peg.Kind of hard to explain,but it won't ever happen again!!!It snapped just like that.No big fan fare just snap......So that's that and we move on.It did me good to just grab a stave and make another bow within a few days.
Cool on your plans for your next project.You were determined and that's a good thing.Ash should be fine.I should rough out and tiller another core for another horn bow myself.Might try ironwood this time.Hickory and ironwood are about the same density.I'm always amazed by the energy storage on those horn bows and the thrill of success taming one down to shoot an arrow.
I keep documentation of all my horn bows to refer back to for a future build.
I've seen other versions of peg boards too for turkish bows that have pegs just to get them opened up.No C clamps would be needed then on that type of bow.
I kinda doubt I'll do a full blown hlb version on that honey suckle.Just enough to keep at least 1/4" wide sides on the limbs.Should be a cool bow though.