Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: jamesh76 on March 31, 2020, 07:10:25 pm
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I will start with a couple pics then introduce myself on the computer since pics are on my phone
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Hello all and thank you for allowing me to join this site. My name is James and I am from 45 minutes South of Kansas City. I have been a long time lurker and reading a lot. I finally decided to attempt one of my own. I have read Jawge's Site, Eric K and the gizmo, multiple build alongs etc.
This will be my first attempt at a Oak Board Bow. I have several Osage and Hickory Staves drying. But it will be a while before they are ready. In the mean time, I figure this would be good practice. I did chase a ring and get one of the osage staves close to size. But it has some checks and I decided to let it dry more and then take another look at it.
Home Depot Boards..... Oh my, What a chore it is to find a decent one. This one was the best of the batch. It was only 64" long but the grain looked pretty decent to a rookies eye. I plan on backing it with brown paper.
please bear with me for a few questions:
I assume you glue the board, apply brown paper then put glue over the paper and sand evenly after dry?
As for this bow, It is 64" long, I assume after I cut in nocks it will be a 63NTN bow? Still learning terminology.
It is full width at handle, I glued on another piece of Hardwood which is centered on the center of the bow and 10" long.
I intend to make a shelf on this bow.
I don't have a lot of expectations, but I do have patience. If it breaks, I will make another one.
I decided on 3/8 wide tips. I came in 15" from the end and tapered 1 1/2" to the 3/8 Tips.
I flipped the board over and tapered the belly straight from the current fade width of 3/4" to 1/2" at the tips
once handle area is dry, I plan to round the edges and see how floor tiller is if I need to?
then to start on the long string once my tiller tree is made.
hopefully I am somewhat on the right path :)
James
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I assume you glue the board, apply brown paper then put glue over the paper and sand evenly after dry?
Welcome, from a fellow rookie. I backed my first bow with old bed sheet material, using Titebond III. I put a layer of glue on the bow and let it sit a few minutes to soak in a bit, then laid the fabric down and put another layer of glue on top of the fabric. I used a brayer to spread the glue and it worked great for that. I don't think I will ever use a finger to spread glue again after using the brayer. It should work the same for your paper backing but the glue won't soak through as well so be sure it is wet between the paper and bow when you are putting it on.
As for this bow, It is 64" long, I assume after I cut in nocks it will be a 63NTN bow?
Depends on how much tip you leave outside the nocks. Lots of people leave closer to an inch, so that would be a 62" NTN bow.
I don't have a lot of expectations, but I do have patience. If it breaks, I will make another one.
That's a good attitude to have. It is more of a journey than a destination, if you look on it all as an education then none of the time is wasted.
I flipped the board over and tapered the belly straight from the current fade width of 3/4" to 1/2" at the tips
What draw weight and length are you shooting for? The board started at 1.5" wide?
Mark
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I flipped the board over and tapered the belly straight from the current fade width of 3/4" to 1/2" at the tips
What draw weight and length are you shooting for? The board started at 1.5" wide?
Mark
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I may not have worded that very well. The bow is 1 1/2" wide, 3/4" thick. The belly side thickness was tapered from 3/4(just past the fades from the handle) to 1/2" at the end of board I wanted to leave it 3/4" just past the fades knowing I could thin the thickness of the belly later as I tiller and lighten the draw weight. Just getting it to a rough dimension.
I draw 27", 40-45#, if not I know some kids! :)
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Tip
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there is also a little bit of reflex in this board. Hopefully, it will assist with any set I may get in the long run.
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Tillering board and gizmo
I made the gizmo too tall at 1 3/4". May shorten it. Also drill hole a tad off center but I'm not sure it matters.
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Your gizmo will work better if it is 6" long and 1" tall, the one you have will be bumping on the string before you get close to the tips.
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Your gizmo will work better if it is 6" long and 1" tall, the one you have will be bumping on the string before you get close to the tips.
ok, it is exactly 6" long, but 1 3/4" wide. I will cut a bit of the height off. Probably leave the angles as is.
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Flemish string jih done, Gizmo shortened to 1" tall. Any feedback of comments so far? Plan to. Brown paper back tonight before I start tillering.
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you tested out the numbers on the jig right?? i did my jig and the numbers it gave me and the numbers i have are all wonked up
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Instead of numbers on the jig I put a strip of masking tape. As I made strings I measured the finished stretched out length and wrote that on the jig. After you finish a few strings strings you will be able to calibrate the jig. Also I think that everybody twists a bit different and makes their loops a bit different etc. After you've made a few you will fall into a pattern and your strings will become more consistent. I think I replaced the masking tape a couple of times because the numbers were all screwy. It's very nice to measure what you need, pick your pin and make the string and actually have it come out the length you planned but it won't happen right away.
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Ok, I'll try that. They are written in pencil. Not sure if that jig will be AMO or ASL.
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Wife took a while to get home with my paper.... started on the faces. My handle area is 5" and I have 2.5" fades. Not sure on angle. It's pretty much a straight line. I got a glue line at the end so I need to fade it in better. Do the edges get rounded more? And the end coming out like a rounded finger or are the ends straight where it meets belly? Gonna see if I can research it at work tonight as I work midnights.
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make it more of a "C" shape or like a wave. make it flow into the bow.
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Ok, so dip the center of the fade more?
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yeah
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Ok, so dip the center of the fade more?
Yes, that's correct. More like this:
(https://i.imgur.com/lPPbfNJ.jpg)
Mark
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I may be there. I assume the glue line will eventually get sanded away? Its smooth transition to belly now. Need to smooth them utterly later.
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Noticed a bit of run out I didnt notice before near last 1/3 of limb. I was gonna paper back it anyways. Laid down glue, started getting bubbles out and ripped a piece. Removed paper and glue. I will try again tomorrow if I can get a larger paper bag. I was using a thin roll of painter's paper ya tape up to prevent over spray. A little water took the TBIII off easily.
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lets see a pic of the runoff
those fades look great
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Edge and back view
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Well heck..... rookie mistake..... center from tip to tip dont quite line up with handle at centerline. Is the fix narrowing the bow a little? 1 1/2 at handle. Looks like off 1/8". Tips are just a little wide of 1/2. I started my limb taper 15" from end of board.
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dosn't need to like up perfect. better than the bow i shoot now.
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Hmm, interesting. I assumed string needed t be inline with center handle. I guess I could put the shelf on the wider side? Or narrower? Which would be better? If I put it on narrow side it leaves more wood in handle.
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Other option would to be narrow the bow to 1 1/4" as after measuring again. String is just under 1/4" from center.
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Hi James,
Well heck..... rookie mistake..... center from tip to tip dont quite line up with handle at centerline. Is the fix narrowing the bow a little? 1 1/2 at handle. Looks like off 1/8". Tips are just a little wide of 1/2. I started my limb taper 15" from end of board.
sometimes, when you remove materiel as you tiller, alignment changes. I would get the bow bending and see where the alignment goes. leave the tips width where it is for now, as you can maybe go narrower with the tips later, one way or the other if the alignment needs dictate. ditto with cutting the shelf (if it is part of your plan) if you have not decided upper from lower limb. I have a bow that actually shoots better if I flip it over and shoot around the wide side of the handle.
Do you plan to floor tiller some or do it all on the tree?
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I need to research floor tiller a little more. I did put the tips down and got a slight bend towards the outer 1/4 of the limb. But it wasn't much.
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when i floor tiller i dont look at the bend, i keep the limb constantly moving and i look at it BENDING (in the process of it being bent) not just when its bent
took me a year to figure that one out 8) 8)
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yeah, mine are pretty stiff now. Once I get the backing on I will thin the belly some to get it bending. Might be a slow couple days waiting for the glue to dry.
I do have some cloth camo material I though about using as a backing instead of the paper...... Not sure if its cotton, poly or what. I dont imagine the camo pattern would show through, but that wouldn't be the purpose.
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James
In reply 22, the top pic of the end of the limb over the yellow broom. Still not sure what to say about the grain. can you take pics of that end again, side, back and end view?
some times It is a better to see if a piece of wood is going to make a bow and start tillering before one spends too much time on cosmetics. the light backing you propose will not change anything if you cannot get the bow halfway tilleerd without it.
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James
In reply 22, the top pic of the end of the limb over the yellow broom. Still not sure what to say about the grain. can you take pics of that end again, side, back and end view?
some times It is a better to see if a piece of wood is going to make a bow and start tillering before one spends too much time on cosmetics. the light backing you propose will not change anything if you cannot get the bow halfway tilleerd without it.
Sure, I will get one of all 4 sides and end grain when I get home from work in the morning.
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Maybe part of it is just because of the tapers.
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One thing I dont understand. Rounding edges. I slightly rounded back edges and a little more on the belly side and I know when bow is finished you should have more less a crown on the belly. However. When tillering, do you keep the crown on the back as you tiller? Is it set I initially then kept through the tillering process?
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you just dont want any sharp sides. crowning is different then rounding the edges. just take a piece of sandpaper and just make the 4 edges smooth.
uhh, i also don't want to be the one that says this but that grain is not good. im sorry but maybe keep going, but if you do, back it and keep it in the back of your head that your on thin ice. (im a guy that really doesn't like bad grain on a board bow. I had a friend draw that bow so i could look at the tiller. He gave it back and i drew it and it blew up giving me a scar on my chest)
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im gonna draw you up a picture of rounded edges and a crowned back and belly.
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One thing I dont understand. Rounding edges. I slightly rounded back edges and a little more on the belly side and I know when bow is finished you should have more less a crown on the belly. However. When tillering, do you keep the crown on the back as you tiller? Is it set I initially then kept through the tillering process?
You radius the edges on the back to help keep a splinter from lifting on the corner between the back and the side of the limb. You don't 'need' a crown on the belly at all, having it flat is actually more efficient from a structural standpoint. But having it crowned a bit makes it easier to scrape wood off as you are tillering.
Mark
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Welcome to PA! You seem to be on the right path! The radius of the corners is about the size of a pea, or so. Don't rush, and keep a close eye on your tillers get.
Hawkdancer
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here ya go
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Maybe part of it is just because of the tapers.
I think so.
You radius the edges on the back to help keep a splinter from lifting on the corner between the back and the side of the limb. You don't 'need' a crown on the belly at all, having it flat is actually more efficient from a structural standpoint. But having it crowned a bit makes it easier to scrape wood off as you are tillering.
:OK
Welcome to PA! You seem to be on the right path! The radius of the corners is about the size of a pea, or so. Don't rush, and keep a close eye on your tillers get.
Yes, I have learned (with broken boards and hinged staves) to develop an eye for judging the slightest discrepancy in curvature. the earlier on the better.
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You are pretty deep into this build so I hesitate to say anything but that board has many run outs. It might work with a backing....
But I look at backings as insurance not a prerequisite to keep it together.
I know what it is like to want to build a bow and to not have a stave so you go to the box store and settle for one with terrible if not dangerous grain.
But you can't do that. Walk away.
Ideally you want straight grain tip to tip with no more than 2 run outs per limb.
Anyway, more on my site. Be careful.
http://traditionalarchery101.com
Jawge
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Thanks for the feedback. Like I said, I didn't expect much on my first one. I will continue with it until it breaks on me. Its all about learning. I wish I could read the grain better, and I have looked st George's site and many broken build alongs. We have a few more pieces of oak laying in the garage I'll check. Not sure. I know they don't have the large distinct thicker rings from the growth rings.
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While we are discussing poor grain. I have these 3 also. I'm pretty sure 2 on left would be bad. Right one maybe?
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but that board has many run outs
I thought so too, but from here, the worst of it looks like where James tapered the ends, just more on one side than you would normally have with any width tapering on account of the rings wandering.
James, the center of the three might be ok if the edge looks as good and straight. Cant really see the one on the right well. Pics taken straight on would help.
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I took put that back in our storage pile already. May go back and look again. Right one looks straight grained but tight
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The one on the left is running off the sides as is the center one. Incan't see what the one on the right is doing.
Evaluate it. Is the grain running straight tip to tip?
Jawge
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We are in the same neck of the woods. I am 50 min SE of KCMO.
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We are in the same neck of the woods. I am 50 min SE of KCMO.
very nice. I'm in Spring Hill.
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Long stringer her today, one side really stiff coming out of fade. Thickness from.one side to the other 6" out from end of fade 7.51v 7.84. That's not much pull, probably 2" if that on the tips. 44# will scrape tomorrow.
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Low brace
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8" from top of tiller board. I will pause here. It's around 35# at the 8" I assume I can still hit 45. Got 20" to go. Looks a little stiff first 6" out from fades and tips stiff. Thin tips now or wait?
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If you want 45# pull it to 45# unless there's a big hinge. That will allow you to see the bend better. Make sure to exercise the limb 40 or so times before looking at the tiller.
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I have been exercising as I scrape. Hopefully I can get a good bend as info and not remove too much. When you say bend till 44#, do you mean do that now and tiller from that point? I imagine I will hit 45 around 20" not sure. I need to.change scales. This one is hard to read from.6-7'
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I scraped some on long string to get it looking better.. I'm just using a cabinet scraper
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Here's the steps,
Exercise limbs,
Pull to desired weight (unless it doesn't feel right)
Look at tiller,
Look harder,
Figure out what spots you think are stiff and weak and mark those accordingly,
Use your gizmo
Cross chewhat you thought you saw with the gizmo
Pull it back to desired weight
Re adjust your eye to what the gizmo says
Take off wood
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Awesome. Then once you get tiller looking good, ya just keep scraping every inch on tree until ya hit draw length. Or 1" past at a few # more?
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What i mean is your pulling it 8" at 35#. Thats really hard to see what's stiff and what's not at 8". So instead pull the bow back untill it's at 45#. The limbs will be more bent allowing you to see the tiller better. With a gizmo though you don't need to pull it back super far for it to work efficiently. But it's still better if you pull it to what ever draw weight you want
But you NEVER PULL IT PAST YOUR DESIRED DRAW WEIGHT. It's capitalized because it's important ;D
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Ok how to explain this well. Give me a sec.
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45@ 17" exercised the snot outtake it inch by inch till I hit 45#
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3 things you never do is
1. Pull it past tour draw weight you want
2. Pull it past you draw length
3. Pull a bow farther than what the tiller will let you
So instead you pull it right to your desired draw weight unless it's past your desired draw length or the tiller is off before you get to the draw weight.
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Now to exercise the limb pull the bow to 17" about 40 times.
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Not sure what spot to start with gizmo. I started at center limb. She has some set already....pics are left and right. Gizmo show the same you see? Stipp tips and outer 1/3
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You want to first use the gizmo without the pencil and find the lowest (weakest) spot and then put the pencil to where itsbarely touching it
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That's what I did, mid limb was about only spot incould.poke pencil out and get ends of gizmo against board. .
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18# about 46#.
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The braces it at just over 6. Exercised and I better stop till I get a response. Looks like a hinge when braved about 6-8" out from fade on left side? I'll put the gizmo on and see. Not sure where to remove wood or fix hinge. Tips still stiff? Pulled ton19@ 45
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Ok. As a newbie, I believe I need to thin between the left side where it looks like it is stiff? Between fade and about 8" out towards that bend?
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work only on the right limb. the left does not look bad, but you are too straight on the right
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Will do, I will thin it down.
Thanks.
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If you can find a way to put it on a tiller stick to hold the bow drawn long enough to trace the back. and then flip it side for side, you will see the difference easily.
try not to keep it on the tiller stick any longer than needed to do a quick trace and don't draw it more than what you did in the bottom pic. you have quite a bit to adjust on the right but you left may need to do no more for a while on the left at all.
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Here again..... still working on right side.
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I'll stop here. Not sure where to.remove on right limb. I think fades and tips.
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work on right outer, leave fade area alone
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I'm puzzled. The gizmo should be telling you exactly where to take wood off. Your bow is an ideal subject for the gizmo. All I can think is you can't be using it right. Have you read Eric's Gizmo how to?
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I'm puzzled. The gizmo should be telling you exactly where to take wood off. Your bow is an ideal subject for the gizmo. All I can think is you can't be using it right. Have you read Eric's Gizmo how to?
you are right, i was doing it wrong. I read it again and was adjusting the pencil.
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All right! you should be on the way now :D
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Gonna stop here for today. I think I have the gizmo figured out. Green tape on limb edges shows removal Mark's. Left limb looks a tad weaker. Taking in some set.
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Now at 24" a tad stiff out of fade on left end fade to string measurement L 5", R 5 1/4"
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Now at 24" a tad stiff out of fade on left end fade to string measurement L 5", R 5 1/4"
If that is 24" draw with the bow braced at 5", then it wont take much wood removal to make adjustments, work slow and careful
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Yeah, I'm gonna go slow from now till I hit 28 or until it breaks.
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I dont trust my eye with all that stuff behind the bow. too much optical illusion. your doing good.
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I look at it on computer. I wish I had a better backdrop. May try to find some.cardboard or something. I meant to post this earlier but it dont look like it went through. Here is where I'm. currently at. I have learned alot during this process. May or may not succeed. However, learn from errors and make it better next time. I came into this bow with no expectations yet I have surpassed where I thought I would get.
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i understand, it is hard to really look at. however, does it appear a but stiff coming out of both fades? Its difficult to measure this area with the gizmo as i hit the taper.
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27" gonna take a break..... looks like I am off somewhere on the right side. Gonna hit it with the gizmo more. Not sure where on right side, gonna be patient and think about it after hitting with gizmo again. I may have allowed too much gap between pencil and board but it appeared equil gap along limb. I have learned alot and gotten farther than I thought I would. I had no expectations, if it breaks r misses weight, I will learn and do better next time.
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1 more
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are both limbs the same length because the tiller looks awesome!!! just look at this.
this is your bow just flipped on itself
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and another
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are both limbs the same length because the tiller looks awesome!!! just look at this.
this is your bow just flipped on itself
from center of bow, yes.
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Cut in shelf and grip. Feels good at least. I went 1 1/8 above center.
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and another
that top limb looks just a bit stiff last 8"
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1/8 difference from nock groves to center bow. Lower limb just about 1/8 longer.
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First draw and shot
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what weight did it end up at and at what draw weight! ;D
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I shot it about 20x, photohophrer was in a hurry to leave. I have it chanted in this picture. It should end up at target weight 45# @28". I sanded it down some. I'll weigh again after I get shot in some. I assume 200 ish arrows? Like the glasses! 3" set
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oh yeah, the tiller may change a little after youve shot it a little. but not a lot. yeah put some arrows through it and weigh it. then if you're sure that itll survive and you want put some tip overlays on you can do that. oh and apply a finish once you feel like your completely done with the bow.
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Yeah, I'll probably use tru oil on it when im.done. I figured 200 shot before I check it again. Just twisted up a string. Need to serve still but I gotta go to work before too long.
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You've done well on your first! Better than mine, for sure. That tiller looks good to me.
The handle on my first bows were very blocky. Took me awhile to figure out that the cross section can be almost elliptical and blended through the fades. also that the tips can really be thinned down on bows.
Hey, way to go - congratulations, and looking forward to seeing it finished up and your progression.
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You've done well on your first! Better than mine, for sure. That tiller looks good to me.
The handle on my first bows were very blocky. Took me awhile to figure out that the cross section can be almost elliptical and blended through the fades. also that the tips can really be thinned down on bows.
Hey, way to go - congratulations, and looking forward to seeing it finished up and your progression.
Thank you! I do need to round the belly side of the handle just a little more. May also bend and fade above the rest area a also. I am suprised on how this went. There were and still are some concerns with some grain runout. It may eventually break. However, I didnt have any expectations. I learned alot from.this project and appreciate the feedback I received along the way.
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Just made a string. Does the serving go opposoye or same twist direction of bowstring?
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can't see the smile thru your shooting glove in that pic, but I know it's there.
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Worked on handle some more. Time for a nap as I work midnights.
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well, it wont let me send a picture through PM but i think you asked for something like this.
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Thanks, Hopefully I will have time to shoot this in tomorrow and check tiller. I did rasp some more on the handle and shelf today. 12 on 12 off most days don't don't provide alot of time some days.
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Shot some more today. Put 1 coat of tung oil just tonsee what it looked like
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Here ya go.