Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => At the Forge => Topic started by: Handforged on April 03, 2020, 01:34:14 pm
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In the other thread I was discussing build along items and this one struck my fancy as I have not made one in a while. The mocataugen or crooked knife is one of the most useful tools in your tool box. It was an essential part of native life and useful in making dozens of items where a straight blade just couldn't cut it. There are varying degrees of these knives and all were made with a specific purpose in mind. Some were general purpose, essentially used as a traditional straight bladed knife with a slight curvature. Others were bent to varying degrees for hollowing wood. Making bowls, Kuksa (noggin) cups and spoons requires some sort of curved blade. They are also used in hollowing dugout canoes, carving facial features on totem poles and at least 100 other jobs that I don't know about.
I have made a few of these over the years and what I plan to do here is sort of a two pronged attack on the idea. I will make one Mocataugen as simply as I can. Using not much more than things any guy would have around the house. A piece of white tail antler, a used up file, a couple nails and some hemp twine. This one will be as basic and primative as I can make while still keeping the spirit of the originals.
The second I will go off the rails a little. Forging this one down from 52100 round bar. I'll forge in a hidden tang with this one and do a burn in style handle from some aged osage scrap. This one will be slightly more elegant. Carving and shaping the osage to a more traditional handle. All while hopefully keeping the design of the Mocataugen intact.
Here is a pic of where we begin. Smaller diameter deer antler, osage block, 52100 round bar and a small bastard file that I had laying around.
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I don't think there is a need to show all the stages of forging out the round bar (I mean I will if you guys want me too) . I'll jump across that to the stage that the file is essentially in already. Trying to keep both projects on the same time line and picture continuity.
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the larger crooked knife I intend to be a general purpose. As such it will be a larger version capable of heavier general carving work. I started by forging down the 52100 round bar into a general drop point shape. Forged in the tapered hidden tang the proceeded to burn in the osage block as I was still working the bevels in the blade with the flatter getting all the edges nice and flat. One thing to remember about crooked knives in particular. You don't want the tang to be straight or inline with the blade. It needs to be swept back slightly, away from the cutting edge.
Burning in a handle: This is done by drilling a starter hole to the depth of the tang. I usually do this to give burned materials a place to go and get the direction started. Once the tang is a yellowish color, all you need to do is push the heated tang into the wood block. It will burn the wood and clearance as it goes. This will take several heats to get it seated fully. If you want a perfect hidden tang fit, this is the easiest way to achieve it. I could have drilled, marked and measured the handle to scratch it out with a handle broach but honestly the burn in method is so much easier and achieves a tighter fit. Once it's done there is no movement in the tang/handle fit.
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Next we go back to the blades. The file blade was worked down to a chisel edge. Being a smaller, thinner blade the chisel edge will be easier to sharpen. For the larger Mocataugen I used a standard knife edge, essentially a flat grind is what it will end up being. After the bevels are worked down to almost sharp I go ahead and put in the curve. Most of these I see are either very shallow, almost a 90 degree bend. I have a hardened steel pen in my hardy on the anvil just for this work. I start shaping at the tip and put in a graceful arch. I think these are a lot more elegant looking than the sharper angles. I do this because I can, it isn't necessary, it just appeals to my eye.
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Can you put a piece of paper or something under them when you take pictures? They kind of disappear into the anvil :D
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Can you put a piece of paper or something under them when you take pictures? They kind of disappear into the anvil :D
HA!, I can try that.
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Large Mocataugen is being fitted for it's osage handle. With the tang burned into to shape, shaping the handle is so much easier. Traditionally crooked knives are meant to be used like a draw knife. With the blade pulled towards your body. Having a reverse grip, most of the traditional styles have a backwards swell in the handle as well as a recessed body and a thumb rest for leverage. I did all of this rough shaping on the belt grinder. I'll then take it down with sandpaper and while the blade is annealed drill the holed for the pins. There is no rhyme or reason to the shape of these. It's more like a feel good comfortable shape. Sand until you get there, then finish sand and oil.
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Nice work!
Hawkdancer
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I'm watching but working on other projects right now. Plan on cutting some tines off of a large, very old pitchfork today.
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i'll play along.
here's a couple rusty files i pulled out, cant get out of the house to do any forge work so i'm just normalizing them so that i can do stock removal.
(https://i.imgur.com/hXBGTul.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/BxEPT9Q.jpg)
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i use a crooked knife every day:) my favorite tool. nice work amigo
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thankyou for the buildalong
If the curved part is closer to the handle wouldn't it be easier to apply pressure and carve?
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thankyou for the buildalong
If the curved part is closer to the handle wouldn't it be easier to apply pressure and carve?
That is where the intended purpose comes into play. Having a good portion of straight blade makes it useful for other tasks. That is how they were originally intended. Now shortening the blade and curving it sooner would be very useful for bowl and spoon carving but not very useful for other chores. In the end the tool is made for the purpose it is intended to be used. I try to walk a line of general purpose instead of single purpose.
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Nice
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That is where the intended purpose comes into play. Having a good portion of straight blade makes it useful for other tasks. That is how they were originally intended. Now shortening the blade and curving it sooner would be very useful for bowl and spoon carving but not very useful for other chores. In the end the tool is made for the purpose it is intended to be used. I try to walk a line of general purpose instead of single purpose
very good :OK
they have elegant lines too
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No one else on board before we go a little farther? I was hoping to have a few giving it a try.
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i would but im missing some stuff. i would love to do it still.
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Like Russell! Only missing a forge! (f) (lol), quenching tank, a real anvil, and time! Watching closely!
Hawkdancer
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I’ll be on board Saturday, gods willing. Been super busy and the weather is still too cold. Supposed to be above freezing by the weekend, though.
Forgive me if you already covered it, but how do you prefer to put the bend in? Over a male form like the anvil horn or a female form like a swage block?
Patrick
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I’ll be on board Saturday, gods willing. Been super busy and the weather is still too cold. Supposed to be above freezing by the weekend, though.
Forgive me if you already covered it, but how do you prefer to put the bend in? Over a male form like the anvil horn or a female form like a swage block?
Patrick
Doesn't really make a difference. Around the horn will give a nice curve. I use a cylinder that mounts in my hardy for turning sharp curves. Just keep in mind, whatever curve you make needs to be able to be sharpened at some point.
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Like Russell! Only missing a forge! (f) (lol), quenching tank, a real anvil, and time! Watching closely!
Hawkdancer
If you've got a torch, a piece of railroad iron and a gallon of mineral oil, you can do it!
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One of my perpetual frustrations with bent blades is the cross-section deformation. Flat doesn’t stay flat in cross section. I remember frustrating my Mechanics of Materials professor when I pointed out that plane sections don’t remain plane when a bar deforms. It is a lot harder to calculate strengths and for class purposes we could pretend, but it always annoys me to have a categorical statement made when I know it isn’t true.
My experiments have bounced between male and female forms just looking for minimizing that effect.
It is still below freezing today, but I hope to get in the shop tomorrow.
Patrick
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One of my perpetual frustrations with bent blades is the cross-section deformation. Flat doesn’t stay flat in cross section. I remember frustrating my Mechanics of Materials professor when I pointed out that plane sections don’t remain plane when a bar deforms. It is a lot harder to calculate strengths and for class purposes we could pretend, but it always annoys me to have a categorical statement made when I know it isn’t true.
My experiments have bounced between male and female forms just looking for minimizing that effect.
It is still below freezing today, but I hope to get in the shop tomorrow.
Patrick
Here is something to take into account. What you mentioned here is true, the cross section of steel does deform after it is bent. However, we do the bending when the steel is still in the annealed state (soft). Form your curvature THEN we thermocycle the steel, treating it like any other knife blade, to reorganize the carbon molecules within the blade. Three thermocycles on any handforging is average and minimum for me to "Normalize" the steel from the forces that have been imparted on it in the process of shaping and that does include bending it. So after normalizing the steel through thermocycles, we should be back to the same structure (internally) as when we started with a blank piece of steel. I know there is some debate there but I am speaking in broad strokes. This all in preparation for the final heat, quench and temper. Which if also done properly should result in the blade exhibiting the consistent hardness without stress points that we created be forging and bending it.
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Like Russell! Only missing a forge! (f) (lol), quenching tank, a real anvil, and time! Watching closely!
Hawkdancer
If you've got a torch, a piece of railroad iron and a gallon of mineral oil, you can do it!
well i got all that, but i lack something very rare, very very rare. permission.
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Like Russell! Only missing a forge! (f) (lol), quenching tank, a real anvil, and time! Watching closely!
Hawkdancer
If you've got a torch, a piece of railroad iron and a gallon of mineral oil, you can do it!
well i got all that, but i lack something very rare, very very rare. permission.
Dominus Ominus…. I hereby bequeath permission. Get after it.
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Like Russell! Only missing a forge! (f) (lol), quenching tank, a real anvil, and time! Watching closely!
Hawkdancer
If you've got a torch, a piece of railroad iron and a gallon of mineral oil, you can do it!
well i got all that, but i lack something very rare, very very rare. permission.
Dominus Ominus…. I hereby bequeath permission. Get after it.
I think he means from his folks... :O ???
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Like Russell! Only missing a forge! (f) (lol), quenching tank, a real anvil, and time! Watching closely!
Hawkdancer
If you've got a torch, a piece of railroad iron and a gallon of mineral oil, you can do it!
well i got all that, but i lack something very rare, very very rare. permission.
Dominus Ominus…. I hereby bequeath permission. Get after it.
I think he means from his folks... :O ???
I know, I just thought I would get the ball rolling.
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Like Russell! Only missing a forge! (f) (lol), quenching tank, a real anvil, and time! Watching closely!
Hawkdancer
If you've got a torch, a piece of railroad iron and a gallon of mineral oil, you can do it!
well i got all that, but i lack something very rare, very very rare. permission.
Dominus Ominus…. I hereby bequeath permission. Get after it.
I think he means from his folks... :O ???
I know, I just thought I would get the ball rolling.
His folks would probably cave if he were learning one on one with an experienced smith. I think they have experience with him "experimenting" on his own on interesting project when he was younger! This kid has a very dangerous personality disorder known as a combination of curiosity and confidence! It's why we like him.
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OK FELLERS! Saturday and snowing like a snow globe outside. Lets get the Crooked knife started back up! For those that are working along, let's see where you are.
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I’m not worried about stresses. I do multiple normalization cycles, too. It is just the geometry that makes me a bit nuts.
My family ended up deciding to do Easter today instead of tomorrow. I might get forge time tonight, and very likely will be out there tomorrow, but it won’t be happening in the morning.
I appreciate the build along, I’m just in a busy time right now. I’ll catch up soon, I hope.
Patrick
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I’ll have pics up when I get back from work, but I got both blades ground and rough sanded up to 180 on my belt sander I’ll hand sand them up to 400 before I heat treat
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Looking back at the "burn in" process, do you drill the pilot hole the same thickness as the blade, or slightly larger? Also, does a standard propane torch get hot enough or perhaps MAPP gas? Btw, the blade is spring steel, likely 5160, but not a hook blade.
Hawkdancer
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Looking back at the "burn in" process, do you drill the pilot hole the same thickness as the blade, or slightly larger? Also, does a standard propane torch get hot enough or perhaps MAPP gas? Btw, the blade is spring steel, likely 5160, but not a hook blade.
Hawkdancer
the pilot hole I drill is the same thickness as the blade. Not only does it give a little direction for the tang to follow as you burn it in but it also gives a place for the ash and smoke to go. A propane torch should do it but what you want to do it keep the tang red hot. Burn for a few seconds and back to heat. The wood will cool the steel rapidly as it burns through.
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here's where i got today
both sanded to 220 tomorrow i'll sand to 400 and heat treat them both
(https://i.imgur.com/0Vt0Nlr.jpg)
i'm also going to rough cut and drill some handles for them.
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here's where i got today
both sanded to 220 tomorrow i'll sand to 400 and heat treat them both
(https://i.imgur.com/0Vt0Nlr.jpg)
i'm also going to rough cut and drill some handles for them.
be sure to drill your pin holes in your blades before heat treating them. Otherwise it really eats a drill bit, especially that 1095 file steel.
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thanks for the reminder but ( and this might upset some people ) these two are going to be my personal tools so i'm not going to put any pins in.
most of the knives i make for myself anymore are hidden tang like these and even on big knives i haven't had a problem without them.
pins are rare on most styles of historical knives (unless it was full tang)
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Thanks for the guidance! I will try to post a "burn along" as soon as I pick the wood, probably will be Osage!
Hawkdancer
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thanks for the reminder but ( and this might upset some people ) these two are going to be my personal tools so i'm not going to put any pins in.
most of the knives i make for myself anymore are hidden tang like these and even on big knives i haven't had a problem without them.
pins are rare on most styles of historical knives (unless it was full tang)
That's true although they did substitute a substantial handle wrap to secure it. Hidden tang tools weren't popular until the advent of forging techniques to produce them. Most if not all of those had some sort of mechanical connection to the handle. Think square cut nails instead of pins. Dozens of early representations of this technique.
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do you have any examples or a time period/culture for the square nails used in knives? you piqued my interest.
also whats the best way to sharpen the mocataugen?
post hardening
(https://i.imgur.com/RqyRb4G.jpg)
and rough handles shaped, with the tools used on them this far.
(https://i.imgur.com/BNg54MI.jpg)
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Good work so far! Shape of the handle is just a feel good thing.
Nails: Cut nails were patented in 1795, forged and square cut nails there is honestly no way to know. They have found horse shoes with nails in them forged by a blacksmith in 900 AD, representations of Iron and bronze nails back to 3400 BC.
Sharpening: The trick to sharpening them is to use sandpaper on a wooden dowel. You can also bevel the blade to outside (what I do) so that you can use a soft sanding brick to sharpen it.
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It took me a week longer than I had expected, but I’ve finally got a blade made for my crooked knife.
It is in the tempering oven as I type this. I hope to find time for working on it tomorrow.
First pic is forging from round. This is just the first heat.
Next, forged to shape, ready to grind.
Ground and ready to harden.
Finally, post-hardening. I wish I could get a picture of the hot steel going into the quench, but I need both hands.
Patrick
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Nice clean lines on that! I forge most all of my knives from round stock as well.
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Did some work on a handle today.
Patrick