Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Horn Bows => Topic started by: simk on April 28, 2020, 07:23:41 am
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After having destroyed my first hornbow by sophisticated stupidity I need another lucky punch and started a new one. I'm documenting this here for Stuckinthemud and ... maybe someone else interested too...
This one piece hornbow-core off course is not state of the art and only for all those who don't like or can't splice or just like messing around with staves (-S I must say it's really difficult to get good alignement, good fades, even thicknesses and a dead flat belly for glueing the horn. It's doabale but splicing a few rectangular pieces sure would be much easier. That way I managed to get an even thickness in the main bending zone within .5mm, which I consider ok. I only did string it to check alingnement - tiller is off because i'ts still too wide towards the outers. Now it's time for glueing horn and then sinew... whish me luck!
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...
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I'm watching :D
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Cool! I wish you luck!
Is it ash?
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yes bownarra, it's premium ash. the bending part is exactly two rings ;D what i didn't like about it was the ring porous thing - difficult to avoid "stairs" in the fades and the early wood parts are potential weak spots in the glue line. hazel was better regarding this. thank you!
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Wahoo, I'm watching this one!
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yes bownarra, it's premium ash. the bending part is exactly two rings ;D what i didn't like about it was the ring porous thing - difficult to avoid "stairs" in the fades and the early wood parts are potential weak spots in the glue line. hazel was better regarding this. thank you!
Exactly! I've used ash on the quarter but dunno if i'd trust it flat. Then again you haven't gone through the rings in the bending section(?) so you may be good. It certainly has the necessary flexibility.
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Alright....You can refer back to the broken one as far as what thickness got you what for poundage.
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bownarra: It's exactly two rings in the bending zone, no early wood. This ash is so straight and flat as if it was produced in a factory ;D I lately built a selfbow out of it with only 3 rings from tip to grip ;D
BowEd: Yep, the game is on again ;D I will of course orientate on the measurings of the last one - this last shoot so good that in need to get an exact replica. I could go with much wider limbs with this one regarding the horn, but won't ;D
Glued and fire hardened the limbs. Now, before sinewing, I need to clean it up and reduce width and so to final final dimensions.
Off coursye already discovered some minor flaws: a little twist and one horn piece doesn't line up perfect => need to cheat a little with alignement now. But that all doesn't worry me too much now because the proof of the pudding will be the bending ;D I've learnt with the first that with heat and and a little creative tillering even major flaws can be fixed ;D
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Awesome. Best of luck to you.
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Thank you Aaron - I sure need it ;D
She received 40 gramms of sinew last weekend and is almost dry and ready to receive another 40 gramms soon. Reflex so far increased from 12" to 15". Praying.... 8)
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What kind of glue is that you are using?
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2k for the horn this time because the radius was not perfect in the fades. rabbit glue with a bit of liquid fish glue and and 1 big spoon of vinegar for the sinew ::)
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Just a bit of advice - rabbit glues aren't have a fair portion of fat in them and any glue that stays liquid isn't really up to the job. What's the vinegar for?
Have you made your own glue before? It is very easy and results in a far superior product compared to most bought glues.
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bownarra, by no means I'm trying to reinvent the wheel 8) - just repeatin' what has been prooved to work reliable on many bows (not mine). scientific research on glutine glues of a german university have clearly shown that a bit of vinegar makes the glue more flexible, stronger and lowers the gelling temp significantly. little ot: with other additives it's also possible to make a water resistant sinew layer on ottoman bows out of bone glue.
I will soon have collected enough sinew scraps to do my own glue and will probably try that also. thank you ;)
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Interesting about the vinegar. I'll look into it and do some testing.
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I've heard of vinegar being added to hide glue but it wasn't for the purpose of making it more flexible or stronger, in fact I heard it weakened the glue a bit. What I read was that it was added to reduce it's gel point
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Well the vinegar reduced the strength of my test glue-ups enough that I won't use it on a bow.
I find that simply doing the different processes when the weather suits is the best way. Even in cold spring England there are ways around the glues gelling.
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Vinegar seems like a bad idea especially when using already lower grade glues like rabbit(low collagen) and liquid pre-mix
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Hey, it's not my invention. It's just from scientific studys of the Munich techincal University about various ancient glueing recipies. It's tested on all types of many hornbows. If this one will fail its only due to my incapability ;D
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Have you used this in practical application before? 2 pretty well experienced people posted before me. Vinegar dissolves hide glue, I don't see anyway how it would not weaken it. It might give you a slower gel time, but does not seem like a good thing to do imo. If it has worked for you then have at it, but I personally would not risk a weaker glue line for all the work that goes into horn composite builds. Then again I would not use the types of glue you are using to begin with myself, nothing but top quality materials. Don't want to spend all that time to just end up with delamination or breakage. Just my 2 cents
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Corvus, yes my last one had this features too (-S especially the sinew layer worked very well I think. I'm deeply impressed by Marcs bow's and bownarras too and they have my greatest respect. But if I was looking for advice I had asked here before doing so and posting. It's just for entertainement. Very interested and open minded I'm taking the different opinions to come. Luckyly I'm gifted with a counsel I 1000% trust and with some things it's usually better to listen to only one expert 8)
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Why I said if it works for you then have at it. Was not aimed at giving advice, was just joining in on the conversation about the vinegar there. Maybe the extra additives to the liquid glue help keep the glue from being broken down. I would not try it with just regular hide glue myself. If it works for you then it is a neat trick and good luck with the build
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Nothing wrong with learning by making your own mistakes ;)
Not listening to others is also your choice :)
I am in the same camp as Corvus - only the finest materials and techniques are used when it comes to a horn bow. A wooden bow that only takes a few hours to make is different. A good hornbow will have many hours in it and I don't like wasting my time haha.
You may have one person whom you 1000% trust but I preferred to get my knowledge through the consensus of the majority. I would suggest that all these 'tricks' have been tried before and disguarded for whatever reason - there is nothing new under the sun :) When a bow type (composite) has been made and worked on for easily a 1000+ years I am humble enough to realize that the consensus is probably right :)
If you aren't bothered with tradition I would use EA40. Mixed 2:1 and cured at 40 - 50 degs.
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bownarra, you are very eloquent ;D
what do you mean by consensus of the majority? following blindly the book of A.K.? I'm glad some people have gone beyond that and did their on research. I don't like monocultures, I like diversity. There's not only one path leading to Rome and not only one church to attend.
By the way: Using 2k on the horns felt like cheating to me ;D
Let's all do some nice bows (-S
Thank you Corvus - sure need the luck - 6 million ways to fail.....choose one 8)
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Having just made a batch of size, more than I can possibly use on my current job, I suspect that the vinegar would be useful as a fungicide - maybe help to stop un-used glue from going 'off'' ?
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that is correct ;D
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i usually put the glue in the refrigerator to store it
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Melt it again and then pour out on baking trays. Thin enough and it will just dry without going off or as simk says in the fridge or freezer.
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Ditto.
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Sinew has completly dried now and reflexed it to 17" ;D Just for cosmetics I will do some two little sinew patches, mount tips and even thicknesses on the limbs. Then - when in the right mood - I'll string it. Sure gonna be lots of fun ;D
The bow in this stadium is almost 100gramms heavier than the last, despite very similar layout. But its more sinew, thicker horns, thicker handle and heavier core wood. I estimate finished bow to be about 570 gramms instead of 500 of the last. It probably also will pull a few more #
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Good luck! I'll be hiding behind that tree over there ;) ;)
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Yes good luck.
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thanks guys! our team has just safely reached advanced base camp no5. while my nerves are hurting a little, my mate still seems to be very strong and in good shape. forecasts are excellent so we plan to reach summit soon (-S
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Looks good and plenty workable.The nervous stage is over with.
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That looks sweet :D :D
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yes ED, will probably have to loose almost 1mm of horn to get into my 50# range. enough room for corrections and create a good safety margin. will have to sharpen that scraper again ;D thanks DC (-S
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Good luck :)
She looks purdy already :)
Awaiting the full draw shot!
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Thanks bownarra! I'm taking it slowly now and try to learn some aligning tricks with heat and so on...
What would you suggest for everyday stringing a bow like this? I'm thinking about filing in some stringing grooves on this one but not sure if this makes sense...I think reflex finally set @ 11-13" and the bow will be around 50#. Is this possible with stringing grooves or is the risk of damaging too high, using a stringer? Carrying around that peg all the time seems a little annoying ;D
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http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,60768.0.html
This is how I remedied that.
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thanks ED! very cool thread and bow! did not know this one but will read it with pleasure. i'm coming from another school but its interesting to see how similar methods in building finally are. I was told that from 12" reflex the stringer method gets difficult and was interested in what you might say ✌️ need a nice stringer like yours...dont like the look of stringing grooves too much.
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Bow in thread currently gets braced with primitive stringer from over 11" of reflex.It takes a steady hand to get the job done,but a lot faster and more convenient yet then using the peg board,or even the more portable peg board shown in thread.Reading the entire thread will show this.
Going beyond 12" does make things more unsteady yet so to speak,but I've done it enough times I know it's doable consistently.Once a person gets the handle to tips' height while stringing stability is a lot more stable.Getting there is where it takes a steady hand.
The stringing grooves of limb tips are there as an insurance because it is considered an actual recurve in the definition of recurves with the string resting on 2" of the tips belly.It might be that they were not needed.They are on there as an insurance.Tremendous stored energy there.Stringing grooves do not bother me in the looks department.Grooving them in did not compromise the strength any if that is your question.It still is at least 1/2" thickness of tips where the string grooves are located.I use a 3 ply fast flight string.
I will say though that stringing a horn bow this way works fine for under 60#'s.When a person gets to 80,90,or 100#'s it becomes more difficult yet.I would say a peg board or tepeliks are your options then just for safety's sake.
PS...Making a bow press would be a god thing.
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Stringing grooves will work fine. Use some good overlay material and they will be strong enough.
I either use the push/pull method or a stringer. If there is somebody around I bend it over my knees and get them to put the string in place.
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thank you both - these are a few good things to know! should work with a stringer, thats fine! But I bet you could scrap your bow doing it wrong. Maybe go for the peg again when its not shot over longer period of time and in full reflex.
Mine now was on the peg more than 3/4 of time, since last saturday. starts to behave better. after being braced 10 hours its 9 or 10" reflex. 3 hours later its 13" again.
Today started bending it a little and shot a few arrows short drawing. Couriosity made me take some measurments. I'm not far away. Its time for fine tiller and fd ;D
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I have no doubt you will come to your own process which is convenient for you.They are meant to be strung long periods of time.I call them creatures of their own compared to selfbows.Very resilient as you know.It's good it's settling in for you.As long as you don't pull past your intended draw weight it should keep every bit of reflex,or that you don't remove too much horn.It'll be a very nice bow.The light is getting brighter at the end of the tunnel.
I like giving the FG boys fits with their self made kit bows.I always like how the draw weight transition lessons or lightens through mid draw with the beginning being high.
While using the stringer it will want to flip or roll over on a person unless you are pulling straight up in line with limbs.There's really no danger to ones' self or the bow if this happens as I've seen.If it happens it will happen right away as you begin to pull and it will tell you that it is'nt in line.
Be sure of proper placement of pressure on handle and center of string while pulling otherwise bow could string up out of tiller.Easily adjusted though with string pressure to belly on stronger limb.
I just restrung mine from at least a month of not shooting it.The 3D shoots in my state are back on schedule with my friends.Just as stable and in tiller as it always has been.Settles in quickly.It is over 3 years old now.
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Ok, she's finished. Only needs beauty clinics now. I'm really happy and I'm still in love with that design. Love the early draw weight and how it shoots (-S Put a 100 arrows through today. 9" reflex after unbracing. 11" 1h30min later again.
Thanks for sharing all that knowledge ED and everybody else!
(-S
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I like it too.Looks super.Hellacious levers!!!
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Cool that looks sweet. I'm glad it has worked out for you. Now what are the fps numbers!
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Really nice. Love the profile!
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Very, very nice :) I can appreciate that ;) ;)
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thanks guys! Waiting for the sinew to dry then do fps off course ;D
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there was a little sun today and I couldn't wait again ;D the other bow is 100 gramms lighter and of course faster. but im fine with this:
10gpp 184fps
9gpp 190fps
8,3gpp 198fps
its not an overbow. seems like I have to repair the other one ;D
(its warm and humid here - maybe in dryer climate and a little more curing there will be a improvement)
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Not bad numbers :)
Have you been shooting it? How is it holding up?
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yeah, put some 200 arrows through. nicely holds 12" of reflex. now waiting for the pitch sinew protection to dry out...takes longer than the sinew itself 😀 removed another 40 gramms of mass,...20gramms from the levers...curious about difference in speed after that. will post pics of finished bow (-S
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Great, glad it has worked out for you and looking forward to more pictures :)
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I'm jealous ;)
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I'm jealous ;)
why that?...your bows are wayyy faster ;D
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Yeah but they're not hornbows :D :D
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...build one too >:( its easy quick and one even get away doin' everything completly wrong 🤣
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I REALLY like this bow. Alot!
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Very cool. Nice work!