Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Primitive Skills => Topic started by: wstanley on May 20, 2020, 04:30:07 pm

Title: Ishi fishing spear head attachment.
Post by: wstanley on May 20, 2020, 04:30:07 pm
There is a picture of Ishi attaching wooden barbs to a long harpoon with cordage. I have seen photos of similar artifacts in California. Is anyone familiar with exactly how it worked? I'm familiar with detaching harpoon points and I am guessing its similar? I have an interest in making one. Thanks.

Wes
Title: Re: Ishi fishing spear head attachment.
Post by: GlisGlis on May 21, 2020, 02:38:51 am
it seems from the pictures that ichi used a forked arpoon
probably it was fixed

Have a look at "tuktu the magic spear" (search youtube)
very well documented original eskimo fishing with both fixed and detachable arpoon
Title: Re: Ishi fishing spear head attachment.
Post by: wstanley on May 21, 2020, 10:31:04 am
I have seen the Tuktu video. Those harpoons are awesome. The Inuit people (I know that's horribly broad and vague term) made some intricate tools. Their drift bow woods, sinew, and ivory bows are ingenious.

I thought it was fixed too, but then found this photo from the Hearst Museum of Anthropology - Ishi's harpoon from his trip with Saxton Pope back to Deer Creek. Should have posted this first!

(https://i.imgur.com/7jsHRns.png)
Title: Re: Ishi fishing spear head attachment.
Post by: GlisGlis on May 22, 2020, 05:23:05 am
the points attached to the ropes look like detachable foreshafts
I dont think they are barbs
Title: Re: Ishi fishing spear head attachment.
Post by: wstanley on May 22, 2020, 08:37:33 am
That makes sense! I’ve been struggling with how they would stay on but I can see that the fatter end is probably drilled out a bit to fit on to those forks. Thanks
Title: Re: Ishi fishing spear head attachment.
Post by: wstanley on May 22, 2020, 11:39:54 am
I'm guessing the lighter colored attached 11'' forks are intended to stay on though? Is that correct. If so, I wonder why not find a forked stick instead of making them and tying them on. Is this way stronger; or if they break then you just replace it? Sorry I am slow to understand the whole system here going on. Thanks for your feedback. 
Title: Re: Ishi fishing spear head attachment.
Post by: GlisGlis on May 23, 2020, 10:40:50 am
Quote
the fatter end is probably drilled out a bit to fit on to those forks

yes I think that too

Quote
I'm guessing the lighter colored attached 11'' forks are intended to stay on though?
to my understand yes

Quote
I wonder why not find a forked stick instead of making them and tying them on. Is this way stronger; or if they break then you just replace it?
I dont know. maybe it's very difficult to find a stick strong, without knots and with correctly positioned branches. they also seems pretty easy to replace that way

probably once  passed through the body of the fish the foreshaft will slid off and place crosswise (mind it's retained by the string in its middle point) and retain the fish
Title: Re: Ishi fishing spear head attachment.
Post by: wstanley on May 26, 2020, 12:40:40 pm
Thanks for the feedback, much appreciated.

Been doing more research and the long shaft was likely made of bull pine (also know as grey pine, and a derogatory name attributed to natives of California which I wont repeat). The immature trees grow nice and straight, few offshoot branches, and holds massive amounts of sap (which is why its not logged for lumber). That heavy sap would have been useful in providing some degree of waterproofing is my guess. The trees grow all around me, and I can see that finding one with a closely symmetrical fork in it would have been very difficult, if not impossible.

I've got the cordage material collected (dogbane), next step is find a straight 12' long bull pine, cut it, and dry.
Title: Re: Ishi fishing spear head attachment.
Post by: GlisGlis on May 27, 2020, 04:05:04 am
curious to see the result  :OK
Title: Re: Ishi fishing spear head attachment.
Post by: wstanley on May 29, 2020, 11:35:24 am
A few neat pictures. The top two pics are the same harpoon. The last one is a harpoon shaft which Ishi left behind when in hiding and was relocated by them (Kroeber, Ishi, and Saxton Pope) again during their trip back up to Ishi's homeland/hideout of Deer Creek. Interesting its much stouter and shorter than the top one. Both appear to be heat treated. Especially the longer one.

This weekend I'm headed out to find a nice straight bull pine.

(https://i.imgur.com/zhLmtUH.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/4HsOnn4.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/enEMGzl.jpg)
Title: Re: Ishi fishing spear head attachment.
Post by: GlisGlis on June 01, 2020, 07:36:47 am
that's a nice item
When you watch cheap survival series you see the participants grab the first crooked limb they find and pretend to use it as spear or arpoon
Our ancestors clearly put alot of work and thinking and care to make their tools
Title: Re: Ishi fishing spear head attachment.
Post by: DC on June 01, 2020, 10:31:20 am
I keep looking at the first picture. The forks that are attached to the shaft really don't look like they are that securely attached but I can't understand why. They are not tethered to anything so they would just head off downstream if they came loose. But they just don't look like they were meant to stay. They look like they are just poked into the binding.

PS After a second and third look maybe the're in there better than I thought but that area just looks fragile.
Title: Re: Ishi fishing spear head attachment.
Post by: GlisGlis on June 01, 2020, 10:50:23 am
I see your point and here is my theory
the harpoon is real long
A well transfixed fish would probably be too heavy on the end of such shaft with the risk of breaking the forks or torn out of the fisherman hands the harpoon
maybe if the fish wont slid out of the forks the forks also is meant to detach from the main shaft
the bond between the two forks could be there to avoid divergence and to occasionally retain the other
sort of an extreme insurance

As all theories it's all BS until proven they're true   (lol)
Title: Re: Ishi fishing spear head attachment.
Post by: wstanley on June 01, 2020, 01:13:55 pm
I think the cordage has just come loose while in storage and therefore looks weak. There is another picture of Ishi actually attaching those forks with cordage. 

Here is my theory : ) :

As can be shown by the bottom shaft picture the business end has been tapered flat on each side to accommodate the forks, which themselves are tapered flat (assumed I cant actually see this). With proper tying and perhaps a litte pine pitch that would hold fairly strong. Add the small binding halfway between the forks, this helps to further squeeze the forks against the shaft and tighten the hold (this seems essential too keep those forks rigid). Those forks I think do very little other than to hold the tips which (I assume) are meant to come off immediately with the struggling of the fish. Like Glis said, I don't think you want a 5-8lb salmon wiggling at the end of a 10' pole. All a guess of course : )
Title: Re: Ishi fishing spear head attachment.
Post by: wstanley on June 01, 2020, 02:07:01 pm
Here are my thoughts for the detachable points:

-The piercing end of the detachable point appear to be metal. I will use the long bone of a deer instead.
-The wooden portion is likely drilled out on both ends to accommodate the piercing point, and the other is socketed out to fit on to the forks. Not sure what wood would be best, but I'm thinking perhaps mountain mahogany. This grows all around the Deer Creek area. This wood is tough and hard which is why I want to use it.
-I am assuming Ishi used sinew and pine pitch glue to attach the piercing end to the wooden portion (drilled out) as well as the cordage. The pine pitch glue serving to waterproof the sinew of course and add strength to the binding. In first photo it looks like sinew is unraveling (to me) on the point to the right.

Went out yesterday to look for a nice straight bull pine. Didn't have much time and although I saw quite a few decently straight ones, nothing that was good enough to match the straightness of Ishi's. I am being very picky and want one in which I have to take off as little material possible to reach the 1.5'' diameter shaft.
Title: Re: Ishi fishing spear head attachment.
Post by: wstanley on June 03, 2020, 11:28:24 am
Close up of binding. Based on the color and look of that cordage it looks like modern cordage (of that time). I believe I read that Ishi did not like making cordage because he considered it to be the work of a woman. I'm not posting that to be funny, just as a small insight into his culture - albeit not with much context. I'll be using dogbane.

(https://i.imgur.com/CnJ6wfi.jpg)
Title: Re: Ishi fishing spear head attachment.
Post by: GlisGlis on June 04, 2020, 03:54:44 am
the forks look firmly secured to the shaft
Title: Re: Ishi fishing spear head attachment.
Post by: DC on June 04, 2020, 08:39:22 am
I was going to say that :D. Yeah, that looks much more secure. I'm happy now.
Title: Re: Ishi fishing spear head attachment.
Post by: wstanley on June 04, 2020, 10:36:01 am
I started working on the toggles (correct me if I'm wrong if that's not what they're called) portion of the harpoon. As I mentioned looks like Ishi used metal. Took a 5'' fragment of deer leg bone and ground it flat on my cement patio. Then split it starting with a sharp chert flake to get the groove going and then a heftier basalt flake to really take off the material. Next I will sharpen them and prepare them for hafting.

(https://i.imgur.com/0QK9O8t.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/DmygSs6.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/BLZzmO4.jpg)
Title: Re: Ishi fishing spear head attachment.
Post by: wstanley on June 09, 2020, 12:02:36 pm
Been out looking for straight bull pines and I have cut one down (pics to come). However, during my search I began thinking that really any straight stock of tree/bush would work. In fact its very possible the shaft/harpoon was milled wood acquired from Berkley. So I went back and looked at the historic photos of the group on their way to Deer Creek on horseback with some of their gear to see if a 10' pole was attached anywhere - but nothing. So I'm more inclined to think Ishi with an axe prepared one fairly quickly during their trip. The shaft comes up very dark on all the 4-5 photos Saxton Pope took of Ishi with it. This makes me think that Ishi had to quick dry it over fire (as well as some minor straightening - assumption). I cant remember how long those men were up there for, but I want to say it was a month (if anyone knows please chime in). So waiting for it to dry would have taken too long.

I am also going to cut down and Incense Cedar of similar dimensions to make as second shaft - replacement/back up. These grow all around me and I cant remember if they grow as far north as Ishi's homeland (I spent two months out there on a job and I should know!). They grow extremely straight. Does anyone know for sure if Incense Cedars grows up their - perhaps a little higher country? Thanks
Title: Re: Ishi fishing spear head attachment.
Post by: wstanley on May 12, 2021, 02:20:11 pm
Been a while but I got back into making this harpoon. Cut a bull pine down and I let is sit in the shade in about 50 degree weather for two weeks then threw it in that little creek for 2 days. Bark peeled off like a banana peal and I got the shaft down to the dimensions I wanted. For the next week I spent about 20 minutes a day straightening out the shaft between those trees while the sap and moisture content was still pretty high. This got the shaft decently straight. Had I applied heat I would have gotten it straighter. From there I twisted up at least 20 feet of dogbane cordage to attach the forks (oak). These forks are on their firm, and with the added cordage halfway on the forks (like Ishi has it) it will be very secure. From here I just need to make the toggles. I still would like to heat treat that shaft a bit to darken it up.

(https://i.imgur.com/fY1Czrz.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Eg9GaBo.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/GJXVe67.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/8fUmJ3m.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/QFCQiC0.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/GlJTSST.jpg)
Title: Re: Ishi fishing spear head attachment.
Post by: Fox on May 13, 2021, 01:48:35 am
Well dang 20’ of cordage is hard ! That thing is sweet! Well done...

How do you take the outer bark stuff off the fibers of your dogbane? I wiggle it between my fingers which is how I was taught.... but it gets tangled and takes so very long
Title: Re: Ishi fishing spear head attachment.
Post by: willie on May 13, 2021, 02:32:53 am
I'm guessing the lighter colored attached 11'' forks are intended to stay on though? Is that correct. If so, I wonder why not find a forked stick instead of making them and tying them on. Is this way stronger; or if they break then you just replace it? Sorry I am slow to understand the whole system here going on. Thanks for your feedback.

with a rocky shallow bottom like in the pic with ishi, I would suppose it is easier to relash a tine than find a another forked pole.

nice to see the project coming along.. salmon will be here soon!
Title: Re: Ishi fishing spear head attachment.
Post by: GlisGlis on May 13, 2021, 04:27:32 am
it looks like a very good job
following with interest
Title: Re: Ishi fishing spear head attachment.
Post by: wstanley on May 13, 2021, 12:48:59 pm
Thanks all.

Fox, if you wait until the stocks are bone dry that outter skin/bark should just flake off on its own as you process the fibers. I really don't spend time taking it off. If that helps.

I'm processing some more dogbane now to make three-ply cordage for the toggles. The binding for the forks was two ply.
Title: Re: Ishi fishing spear head attachment.
Post by: YosemiteBen on May 14, 2021, 01:50:01 pm
Dogbane is a great cordage material! I have made hundreds of feet of it in my time. A light scraping will take off a fair amount of the skin. scrape in one direction not back and forth just until you see the fibers begin to break loose. I flatten the stem and break it open and usually end up with four pieces which I then break backwards over my fingers to separate the fiber.

I am not great at the photo thing. I will try to find someone to help me with that part. WStanley - come on up we can do a photo shoot....

on a side note. California is down to 5% of our average snow pack. Temps are unseasonably warm. An article I read yesterday indicated the 75% of western states can expect 130% of the 5 year wildfire average of acres burned!
Title: Re: Ishi fishing spear head attachment.
Post by: Yooper Bowyer on May 14, 2021, 02:02:58 pm
Maybe that is where the Tennessee summer has gone to  ::)

I feel that some news outlets like to exaggerate things to get attention, but of course you know what you're doing.
Title: Re: Ishi fishing spear head attachment.
Post by: wstanley on May 18, 2021, 03:03:59 pm
Heck ya Ben. I could make it down at some point. I'll let ya know.

Working on the toggles. I am using elderberry. As you can see I abraded/ground the hafting groove and drilled out the entire stick with a keakook drill. The biface of course is obsidian. I need to make some pine pitch glue, sharpen up some deer bone into points haft them to the toggles, and finish my three ply cordage that will be attached to the toggles via pine pitch glue and sinew. 

(https://i.imgur.com/0C5YqBh.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/sdVmF26.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/3C7fHQs.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/ElWNXVl.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/QyGsmyz.jpg)
Title: Re: Ishi fishing spear head attachment.
Post by: Fox on May 22, 2021, 05:49:17 pm
So awesome :OK
Title: Re: Ishi fishing spear head attachment.
Post by: wstanley on July 06, 2021, 02:43:50 pm
Harpoon is finished. The cordage for the toggles is three ply dogbane and the rest of the binding is two ply. The harpoon tips are the same deer leg bones I posted earlier. Those were sharpened on my cement patio. The cordage attaches to the toggles with sinew and is covered in pine pitch glue for waterproofing. The toggles stay on snuggly even after whipping and carrying the harpoon around, but slide off easily with a bit of a tug (fish). Need to test it now! The shaft I think is key, to find something straight and with a good balance. When scouring the forest I had the idea in my mind that I needed something with the dimensions of a "flag pole" for the shaft. I feel that prehistorically (in CA) folks probably used bull pine because it grows straight and narrow when immature - bull pine grows in all foothill settings of California and is a strong wood. Anyway, once I can test this puppy out I'll post pictures. It was a blast to make, and I plan on making more but just with a single fork.

(https://i.imgur.com/Qdys0KI.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/TXb6T7d.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/PkRzbb2.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/Hg7EcYt.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/V1SjtLI.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/EXUzCSH.jpg)

Title: Re: Ishi fishing spear head attachment.
Post by: GlisGlis on July 07, 2021, 12:58:22 pm
very well done. Waiting for picture of it in use.
just a tough that came to my mind
have you checked for fishing restrictions as far as harpooning?
Title: Re: Ishi fishing spear head attachment.
Post by: wstanley on July 07, 2021, 01:54:54 pm
Thanks Glis. I think the closest thing CA fish and wildlife (formerly game) allows is spear gun fishing... I imagine my harpoon is not considered a spear gun. My idea was to try my buddies private pond. If he lets me : )
Title: Re: Ishi fishing spear head attachment.
Post by: GlisGlis on July 08, 2021, 05:35:40 am
You should be allowed a special scientific permit.  ;D
That's only half a joke. Your replica could really be of some historical interest. Maybe you could contact a university professor to partner in your tests  :OK

... and yeah, i guess private ponds are a good solution too
Title: Re: Ishi fishing spear head attachment.
Post by: wstanley on July 08, 2021, 01:06:34 pm
That's what I say!

That would be cool for sure. Really I would be willing to mail the forks, toggles, and cordage to someone in a state with relaxed harpooning laws - hahaha if that exists! All you gotta do is make the shaft! No kidding. I think the test would be best on a large river with salmon!
Title: Re: Ishi fishing spear head attachment.
Post by: YosemiteBen on July 08, 2021, 01:52:56 pm
My cousins got special permission from F&G to spear fish at Oroville Dam sometime ago. So, it is not unheard of.... Also, DADT, Don't ask, Don't tell....