Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Rākau on June 11, 2020, 06:03:46 pm
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In lieu of the email/message that has just been sent regarding the question "what is primitive" I would love to hear everyone's thoughts on the subject. I expect that the responses will be many and somewhat varied. I am not asking this to create controversy , but rather to explore the hive mind and to perhaps have my own opinions modified.
Here are my thoughts to get us started.
My view of primitive is pretty much anything made before the advent of iron/steel with some exceptions. As such I think that the majority of the "primitive" bows made now, excepting those made with stone/bone tools and natural materials, including adhesives, and string materials, are not really primitive, but rather made to replicate or emulate primitive artifacts. They maybe be primitive in form and function, but not in construction and realistically sit in what I would call the category of "modern primitive". In the category of "modern primitive" I would place all archery equipment made from natural materials, but made with modern tools (Steel tools, power tools, hand tools etc) and/or modern adhesives and finishes (epoxies, modern varnishes etc). In terms of string material, there is nothing primitive about any modern string. However, in terms of functionality it seems that good linen performs as well as modern materials and so for the sake of safety and because there is no little functional difference apart from durability I would include modern strings in the "modern primitive" category also. Of course this leaves some gaps, such as with the english long bows and the asiatic composites. I do not view these as primitive, as the societies that made them would not be classed this way, I view them as historical or pre-modern.
I am looking forward to hearing everyone's thoughts.
Cheers,
Zach
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Good question. If a scholarly answer is expected, we need to hear from archeologists or sociologists. Anyhow, here is my "primitive" answer.
I like to distinguish between primitive "materials" and primitive "skills". Any combination of the two will be reasonable enough to be used for a certain purpose. That means all depends on the purpose of asking the question.
I am more inclined to think in terms of skills and therefore my "primitive" is rather like "homemade by a hobbyist without using any special tools, materials, or technology". Or at least theoretically possible to be made that way.
It would be nice to have the purpose clearly stated.
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(-P
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In the category of "modern primitive" I would place all archery equipment made from natural materials, but made with modern tools (Steel tools, power tools, hand tools etc) and/or modern adhesives and finishes (epoxies, modern varnishes etc).
Modern primitive is close enough for me, but I'm just a heathen who wants to make wood bows in 2020. I am not concerned at all about recreating history or doing things the way they were done in the 1800's.
Mark
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Modern primitive is close enough for me, but I'm just a heathen who wants to make wood bows in 2020. I am not concerned at all about recreating history or doing things the way they were done in the 1800's.
Mark
Yeah I fall into this category too.
I should be clear that this isn't about people having to justify how or why they do things. I don't particularly care what category my bows or anyone else's bows fall under, I just love working with my hands and making stuff and am interested in this question for the sake of a discussion.
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Making what you need with what you have available.
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It would be nice to have the purpose clearly stated.
The question was first posed by the sponsors of the site, and they have also recently broadened the scope of their definition of primitive in the magazine.
Are we discussing a redefinition of what is allowed to be posted at the site, or adding a trad bow subforum?
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Perspective is important as is intent.
The questionnaire that brought this up is coming from a modern perspective with all the modern materials and tools available today, so from that perspective anything made with natural Materials by hand could be called primitive.
And the intent for the questionnaire was to come up with a guideline for class devisions for shoots so all of the questions were geared towards that.
like you I just enjoy making stuff with my hands and most of the things asked in the questionnaire were things I had never really considered or even cared about, still don’t for the most part.
Perspective I feel is the most important thing to keep in mind any time someone asks “what is primitive”
There is now to make a hard definition for this question because it’s all relative, what is cutting edge equipment and technology to one person is a relic of some begone era to someone else.
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I can't really add much to what you said, Rākau. It seems we agree on pretty much everything with the exception of the English longbow and I only make that distinction due to the fact that the long, narrow and deep bow style is present pretty much around the world.
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In lieu of the email/message that has just been sent regarding the question "what is primitive" I would love to hear everyone's thoughts on the subject. I expect that the responses will be many and somewhat varied. I am not asking this to create controversy , but rather to explore the hive mind and to perhaps have my own opinions modified.
Here are my thoughts to get us started.
My view of primitive is pretty much anything made before the advent of iron/steel with some exceptions. As such I think that the majority of the "primitive" bows made now, excepting those made with stone/bone tools and natural materials, including adhesives, and string materials, are not really primitive, but rather made to replicate or emulate primitive artifacts. They maybe be primitive in form and function, but not in construction and realistically sit in what I would call the category of "modern primitive". In the category of "modern primitive" I would place all archery equipment made from natural materials, but made with modern tools (Steel tools, power tools, hand tools etc) and/or modern adhesives and finishes (epoxies, modern varnishes etc). In terms of string material, there is nothing primitive about any modern string. However, in terms of functionality it seems that good linen performs as well as modern materials and so for the sake of safety and because there is no little functional difference apart from durability I would include modern strings in the "modern primitive" category also. Of course this leaves some gaps, such as with the english long bows and the asiatic composites. I do not view these as primitive, as the societies that made them would not be classed this way, I view them as historical or pre-modern.
I am looking forward to hearing everyone's thoughts.
Cheers,
Zach
I was going to write something, but then I realized that I agree a 100 % with everything you said.
Modern primitive is close enough for me, but I'm just a heathen who wants to make wood bows in 2020. I am not concerned at all about recreating history or doing things the way they were done in the 1800's.
Mark
Yeah I fall into this category too.
I should be clear that this isn't about people having to justify how or why they do things. I don't particularly care what category my bows or anyone else's bows fall under, I just love working with my hands and making stuff and am interested in this question for the sake of a discussion.
Also this, a 100 %
For me this forum is for people who like to construct wood-based bows. The reason I think F****glass and C**pound bows should'nt be included, is not about some prejudice against people who like those types of bow, but because they are so different from a construction and materials view that it is in essense, entirely another conversation.
my 2 cents.
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But if the survey is meant to be about competition categories and rules, and not about a more philosophical distinction between "primitive" and other bows, then I think I'll abstain from answering the survey, as I don't have any strong feelings about that.
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Intent and perspective is important... as is honesty and full disclosure.
I don't go to shoots or gatherings that use terms like primitive, traditional, or modern for purposes of segregation, so don't have an actual need for those terms.
I don't consider my selfbows primitive because I use modern tools, methods, finish, strings, and conveniences like electricity. Nor do I attempt to adhere to anyone's definition of 'primitive', including my own.
I once made a bow with stone age tools. Started with two rocks and a shed antler, but I did some of the scraping of the limbs with a piece of flint while held in my bench vise under a light, so it wasn't a primitive bow imho. Aside from that, I'm a modern man who learned with books, videos, and the internet, all while well fed, happy, and warm in my modern home. No, to me a primitive bow came by way of primitive means.
But I generally don't need or care to define such things, never have and never will refer to my bows as primitive or modern-primitive. To me it's just a bow. Just archery. Just bow hunting. But if I HAD to define it, then I agree well enough with your first post, Zack. Sounds reasonable.
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Well said D W S, That is why I don't tell folks I make primitive bows, I make wood bows. Lots of people have different ideas what a primitive bow is, I have my own opinion and I don't know many that make what I would call a primitive bow. ;) yep get out the popcorn. ;) :) :) :)
Pappy
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Just bows and Primitive is just a word.
If I had to guess, when you have a survey and at the end they call it a quiz get ready! It is because someone either wants a change or in this "Cancel Culture" of today Someone wants to take something away from someone else.
Different Orgs have specific time periods and standards for shooting vintage, selfbows or bow types made before 1800 but they never ask "how was it made".
Who gives a chit? Shoot em if you got em!
Hedge~
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As said before by Arvin. I’m old but not Primitive. I respect everyone’s differences otherwise this world would have never got past Primitive. I love and respect the old and the new so much that I tend to bring them together in my bows. But I’m weird. Arvin
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Among those who stick to primitive ways, there are some who use stone and bone only tools. I'm not in that camp, but that's what I call primitive archery.
My interest is the late 1920s to early 1930s archery that I read about in old home craftsman books and magazines when I was a kid--just wood for bows and arrows and just leather for tabs, quivers and arm guards. (And no ATVs, rangefinders, sights, shelves etc. ) I like carriage bows too, and they don't fit in the primitive camp either.
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I dont know,, :)
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Primitive is pre contact tools, techniques and materials is the way I look at it.
This has nothing to do with what group you will shoot in at a shoot.
Jawge
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When we go back 40,000 years with the use of the Atlatl which put mankind on the top of the food chain, and man first converting to the bow, and arrow, and what tools, and techniques they used to make their bows, and if you want to use Primitive as a bow description to me that would be the most authentic , and purist form of a Primitive bow. Even in Otzi's century the metal ax was a tool that was available to make his Yew long bow, so I really don't know what is considered Primitive by the masses today.
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If a guy with a Compound Bow looks at your bow and says “Man - that thing looks Primitive”... it’s good enough for me!
But the reality is that “Primitive” means something different to everyone so in terms of a category at a shoot, then the parameters are picked so that everyone is competing on a level playing field. So long as the parameters are clearly defined and enforced for everyone then the details aren’t that important.
For me a primitive bow is something you could conceivably make using natural materials and uncomplicated hand tools. So a knife and ax yes ... CNC router ... no! I don’t have a problem with modern tools that help the bowyer - but you have to be able to look at the bow and imagine a man sitting round a fire in the woods could conceivably have made it.
So for example ... a sinew backed Osage recurve would be fine in a primitive class for me... but a bamboo backed trilam board bow would not!
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I fit in there with Jim Davis and Tommy D. Ol' Glassy One ain't primitive, any wood wood bow from the same era may well be! A mass produced compound ain't by any means primitive, nor is a synthetic stock on any firearm, especially muzzleloaders! What hand and power tools you use that cause you to be in control are your choice, using cnc stuff is not primitive, yet! I assure you that many items we consider primitive were made using the latest techniques available that made the job easier. North American Native and First Nations people were exposed to new ways and materials when the white man landed on their territories, they adopted many of the new things rather quickly.
Hawkdancer
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Ah this makes a little more sense now. I dd not realise that the survey potentially had a hidden (or not hidden, I just didn't pick up on it) motive regarding bow classes for competitions. I thought it was just to capture people's opinions about the subject for the sake of discussion.
Loving the discussion so far and the various points that people have brought up.
Intent and perspective is important... as is honesty and full disclosure.
I don't go to shoots or gatherings that use terms like primitive, traditional, or modern for purposes of segregation, so don't have an actual need for those terms.
I don't consider my selfbows primitive because I use modern tools, methods, finish, strings, and conveniences like electricity. Nor do I attempt to adhere to anyone's definition of 'primitive', including my own.
I once made a bow with stone age tools. Started with two rocks and a shed antler, but I did some of the scraping of the limbs with a piece of flint while held in my bench vise under a light, so it wasn't a primitive bow imho. Aside from that, I'm a modern man who learned with books, videos, and the internet, all while well fed, happy, and warm in my modern home. No, to me a primitive bow came by way of primitive means.
But I generally don't need or care to define such things, never have and never will refer to my bows as primitive or modern-primitive. To me it's just a bow. Just archery. Just bow hunting. But if I HAD to define it, then I agree well enough with your first post, Zack. Sounds reasonable.
Well said D W S, That is why I don't tell folks I make primitive bows, I make wood bows. Lots of people have different ideas what a primitive bow is, I have my own opinion and I don't know many that make what I would call a primitive bow. ;) yep get out the popcorn. ;) :) :) :)
Pappy
I think you captured my sentiments here D W S and Pappy. Scrap all that hoo haa about "modern primitive". I just like making wood based bows supplemented with various natural materials (rawhide, sinew, skin, bone, antler, horn etc) and a few synthetics too (strings, glues and finishes) using whatever tools I have on hand to get the job done.
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Make a bow that fits your personality, shoot it and enjoy it, don't worry about what someone else might choose to make.
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Rakau
Yer sniffin it out now! I can usually sniff out the terd in the punch bowl several football fields away! Kept me and a bunch raving mad Rangers alive in a bunch chitholes around the world. its no secret when yer in the valley of 1000 insurgents and they fly you in Lobster and Ribeye steaks form 15,000 air miles its almost ironclad that some of ya are not coming out alive. Cant send Joe home without some Maine in his gut.
Yep these are things you can learn at Fordem or Columbia U
I can almost lay odds that anything called a survey then revealed as a quiz is without question of this new culture to modify, take something away or classify a segment or group as outside their norm.
Hedge~
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I see it as any pre industrial revolution culture and using/making the tools they would be using from that time. What separates the archer/Bowyer from today is we make/shoot bows because we like it. The historical bowyer archer did it for their survival. You can replicate the material - not the mind-frame of the historical bowyer/archer. But i find in fascinating to TRY and see how/ what a Comanche (inset any culture here) kid went through to become a skilled archer and bowyer.
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I’m not sure why people get so offended by asking about primitive bows. It’s fine you don’t care about using primitive tools or classifying this as that or that as this. This website/magazine is called PRIMITIVE ARCHER, where else can those who do find it interesting discuss this??? Am I on the wrong website??? Golly if you don’t find the topic enjoyable the don’t the join the discussion.
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I think you are in the right place wstanley. I think we have a lot to learn from our ancestors. Re-discovering different modes of thinking that may have been lost along the way to our present state of affairs might be a worthwhile endeavor. The "modern" sometimes seem too quick to dismiss the widsom of the past.
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I’m not sure why people get so offended by asking about primitive bows. . .
I'm not sure who is offended by the discussion, perhaps i came across wrong. I am fascinated by pre industrial cultures and pretty much any discussion related to them, in particular the use and manufacture of ranged weapons. When I said I don't care how other people made them I did not mean that I don't care about how ancient peoples came upon their designs etc. I was more refering to how people today choose to make their gear. perhaps I should have said that I find all methods of manufacture interesting and worth while.
I think we have much to learn from those who came before us, at the very least because it is fascinating.
Anyway, the tone of this thread has gone a bit south. lets cut it of here shall we.
Cheers,
Zach
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Offended is not the correct term to use. Your right. The responses which imply who cares I ffind funny is all. I was not referring to you or your chosen topic. Sometimes I just need to :-X
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When I took the survey, it was the materials that made the difference between modern and primitive.
For me, "primitive" means using all-natural materials for the bow, glue, backing, finish, and string. The tools don't matter and the shape of the bow doesn't matter.
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Hey All,
I am the one that set up the survey. There was no intent behind it other than I was curious... I was looking through one of our very early issues and in it was this survey- It was from pretty exactly 25 years ago. Two issues later were the results. Back then they had people either copy the survey with a xerox or just tear out the page and mail it in. I copied the exact survey and thought I would do the same along with the results from 25 years ago. All out of curiosity - I didn't have an intent behind it other than to start conversation and interaction. There are many on this site now or subscribers that weren't even born or were just toddling around when it was originally published.
I have loved reading all the responses. I guess a big difference is I didn't publish the survey this time, I emailed it and posted it here. Currently, we have had great responses and many have been kind enough to elaborate at the end.
I look forward to putting together all the results and comments. Hearing the different thoughts on it all can make one ponder. I guess that was the true intent- seeing other perspectives and pondering new or old schools of thought.
Thank you to all who have filled out the survey. It took me a lot of YouTubing and article reading to learn how to set up a survey on our website. So I appreciate your efforts in responding as it has made mine very worthwhile.
Thanks guys!
Calendargirl
-marie-
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my thoughts are made from all natural materials. is considered primitive.. if using synthetics or modern materials.. modern primitive.. tools are not even considered.. now if the category was "primitively made " then tools would be a factor.. gut
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For me, its the use of synthetic material, synthetics are modern, anything else will have a historical precedent somewhere
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I think everybody is making a mountain out of a molehill. I was a member of TBOF when Jack was the president or one of the officers. I'm pretty sure when Jack started this survey 25 years ago he
was fishing for ideas to establish a set of rules for a "primitive" only division for our club shoots. For people that were making or shooting a homemade, all wooden bow. And whether to allow
aluminum arrows, plastic nocks, vanes, or just all natural arrows only. I shoot in another club now with Jack, The Florida Frontiersmen, pre 1840's and he pretty much came up with the rules for that
organization also. There was never a conversation I know of on how the bow was built. But just all natural material was used.
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Why self nocks in that shoot Eddie?
HH~
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I remember that survey from 25 years ago. That's how long I've been a subscriber.
I participated in this year's survey and thought it was fine and enjoyable.
You don't have to answer if you don't like surveys. I do and did.
I don't think Primitive Archer is able to influence shoot organizers across the country in setting up classifications.
You don't have to go to traditional only shoots. Actually, those are the only ones I go to these day because those are what I enjoy. I don't foresee going to any in the near future but I do enjoy them. Most have been cancelled anyway.
This is a free country, at least for the time being. Enjoy it while it lasts.
Jawge
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I think, 25 years ago when the survey was offered we had few choices. You either shot compounds, traditional glass lam bows or all wood bows. In that scenario all wood bows were the "primitive" bows. We've come a long way with wood bows in that 25 years so what folks referred to as primitive then is just a wood bow now.
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Shawn, all of the shoots I go to only allow selfnocks or natural material nocks, like bone or wood plugs in cane. Twin Oaks was the first shoot I attended that allowed plastic nocks in Primitive division. You can shoot any arrow but not for score.
And the shoots down here let wood laminated bows in the same category as selfbow.
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For me, "primitive" means using all-natural materials for the bow, glue, backing, finish, and string.
That was my answer, too. But then I got to thinking: Processed sinew, retted and combed linen fibers, and hide glue do not occur in nature.
To my mind, primitive archery just means shooting bows and arrows that are or could have been made in pre-industrial conditions. I have to hunt with steel points, and I use modern strings because linen is hard to find around here, and I stick my hand-stripped turkey feather fletches to my sitka spruce shafts with modern adhesives.
I classify myself as a sorta-almost-primitive archer.
I don't do many shoots or competitions, but I would think that self-bow, laminated wood/horn, laminated modern, compound, and crossbow would be reasonable categories. But around here, it's just fun to shoot with other people. I can shoot my self bow fine against other trad bows. If I compete against the wheely boys, I'm going to get whooped. That's a choice I make and I'm OK with it. :D
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i certainly didn't mean to come across as offended and i apologize if i did.
i thought the survey was interesting from the historical perspective and harmless, anyone who thought it was attempting to take something away is just paranoid ::)
i think the difficulty of answering "what is primitive?" is that without a narrow context it is a philosophical question and everyone will have a different point of view :)
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I guess i could get Jim Davis to make Selfnock reparrows. When you shoot one off, taper the rear of arrow and glue a new nock reparrow on the back.
Does TBOF even require arrows to be matching in weight length ?
The girl who shot high SB score there this year shot one of my bows. Did not have a selfnock so moved her to longbow after the shoot?
HH~
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You don't have to shoot matching arrows.
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Yeah, i thought not.
Gotta have self nocks but can have 275grn arra and a 600grn one. Somehow there’s a disconnect there abouts? But Hey, thats their chicken down there.
HH~
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To be labeled truly "Primitive",,the means of manufacture are as important as the materials used..Can we enjoy Natural materials archery without being truly "Primitive"??..Of course we can..Unless we are trying to make authentic recreations or museum quality artifacts,,then it really shouldn't matter all that much.. Ishi himself capitalized on more modern materials and methods once he was exposed to them...
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.. Ishi himself capitalized on more modern materials and methods once he was exposed to them...
There are guys on the Yukon river that use spears and spear throwers (atlatls) to hunt seals. Not because some else did years ago, but because it is still the best way to do it. The skills have been passed down in their families for more than 10,000 years. Some folks might say that's primitive, but don't tell them that. Or tell them they can't use an outboard on the skiff.
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.. Ishi himself capitalized on more modern materials and methods once he was exposed to them...
There are guys on the Yukon river that use spears and spear throwers (atlatls) to hunt seals. Not because some else did years ago, but because it is still the best way to do it. The skills have been passed down in their families for more than 10,000 years. Some folks might say that's primitive, but don't tell them that. Or tell them they can't use an outboard on the skiff.
"Everybody says they go camping because they want to be closer to their ancestors, closer to the pioneers. I think the pioneers just did what they needed to do. If Lewis and Clark had found a Hilton, they wouldn't have camped!"
--A great comedian whose name escapes me at the moment