Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: sleek on September 17, 2020, 09:00:25 pm
-
I want to find which elm is the best elm for bows. I know thats subjective in many ways, but im going to base it on which elm required the least width to make a bow of a set length and less than one inch of set, im thinking 62 inches long with 28 inch draw, 55 pounds.
So I want to sample each species of elm there is in the United States. This, being purely experimental, I have no desire to keep any of the bows I make. Also, as I live in NC, I am limited in the species around here thats available. If yall are interested in helping, and getting the bow i make from your stave, assuming its survival ( anything can happen ) feel free to comment what elm species you have access to with pics of the leaves, bark, and branches. Saplings are great 4-5" are great, id not recommend anyone trying to split a stave. Fresh cut is fine, I will let them set a year, this will not be fast, but it should be interestingto learn from.
Admin, I would have put this into the trade area, but I figured since I'm just going to make and send off all the bows with no trade actually being made, and the purpose Im going for here to broaden knowledge of elm, I'd like to keep it here if it pleases yall.
-
Elm varies wildly within each species. You'd need many samples of each kind. By the numbers Rock Elm should theoretically hold the most potential.
I have cut American elm with wood which resembled anything from Yew to Ironwood.
-
There is no best. Varies from tree to tree in same species. Small dia rules just like Old Guys.
HH~
-
Wych elm was a popular choice in Europe for both the elb and Holmegaard bows, but I don't think it grows in the USA. You might want to research which elms are easier to split - this could save a lot of work. I would tend to stay away from American elm.
-
I would tend to stay away from American elm.
Huh? Quite a few people consider American Elm among the top woods you can get.
-
For no other reason other than its hard to split, I guess red elm would be worse to split, plus the smell. Yeah, pretty much any elm is a candidate. From limited experience it seems heat treatment can turn any average elm bow into a very decent shooter.
-
Elms over here vary from excellent to average, to poor......Good luck!
Wych elm is no different to any of the others we have here from a bow making point of view.
-
I would tend to stay away from American elm.
Huh? Quite a few people consider American Elm among the top woods you can get.
Agree American elm has been great for me. Red elm not so much although it’s beautiful when one gets hold of a good stave.
-
I would never discount any wood based on how it splits or works. The end result is all that matters.
-
Elm can be kerf cut and split.most times I quarter a log with a chain saw.following the grain is not so important like it is with something like Osage orange.
-
Here's my lame answer for u; I think whichever is most plentifully available near you is the best Elm, or the best bowwood. And I agree with HH, there's so much variation from tree to tree, even in same species. Also I think we should never let split-ability stop us from unlocking a beautiful bow hidden in a tree
- Michael
-
Here's my lame answer for u; I think whichever is most plentifully available near you is the best Elm,
that’s not lame at all. it allows sleek to look thru lots of elm and figure out what makes one better than the other. growing conditions? age? density?
-
I've cut Elm growing a few feet apart and seen vastly different wood
I think Marc mentioned cutting two trunks that were forked off the same root and both halves were different.
-
I have read there can be more genetic difference between different parts of the same tree than between individual trees found at different locations.
Density difference is often cited as a primary factor in studies of the mechanical properties of wood.
Dean Torges used to take samples with a foresters increment borer before dropping a tree, although I think he may have been looking at early/late ratios in order to estimate density.
-
To a large degree trying to select a tree based on criteria without actually cutting the tree and trying to make a bow from is pointless.
You won't know until you know.
-
I have quite a bit of experience with English Elm (Ulmus Pocera) and Wych Elm (Ulmus Glabra), approx 50 bows, and I can endorse the comments about its variation, even from the same tree or location.
Your choice of length and width probably don't suit Elm best, but it is generally a great bow wood for most types, especially with heat treatment.
IMO, the best design for Elm would be a longbow that bends through the handle (full compass), is 68 - 74 inches long and 1 1/2 - 1 1/4 inches wide in the center, with a flat belly.
-
For our Elm I would say any design you want. It's that good. Heat treating certainly vastly increases its potential but the first bow I made that bounced back to untreated reflex was Elm.
-
I've made just about every concievable bow type from small leaved, wych and English elms over the years. It is one of my go-to woods but I agree with Pat you cut the tree,season it, start bending the sucker and see if it starts talking set early.....if it does its firewood :) But I would say the poor stuff is probably only around 5% of what i've cut. I remember one tree I cut that was about half the density it should've been and it almost didn't get carried out of the woods haha but I decided to give it a go for fun and it turned out to be exceptionally elastic but very low density. I missed decent draw weight with it but it is now a 30# bow that has done many hours of shooting and still hasn't taken any further set. So even the 'rubbish' can be good:)
-
I was thinking when you find a great piece of elm, maybe cut it a little bit higher than normal. After that it starts to sucker and you can cultivate those suckers. = You clone the tree with good qualities :OK I should try this when I find good quality tree of wych.
-
I've cut Elm growing a few feet apart and seen vastly different wood
I think Marc mentioned cutting two trunks that were forked off the same root and both halves were different.
I came across 2 trees that were growing from the same stump many years ago. One of them was big enough to harvest so I cut it, the other was a 2" sapling so I left it to grow. It was hard, dense and turned out to be some of the best Elm I have ever cut, it made excellent bows. I went back a few years ago and found the sapling still growing and was now a 6" tree so I cut it. It was not the same quality of wood. Still good but nowhere near as good as it's big brother.
-
I remember one tree I cut that was about half the density it should've been and it almost didn't get carried out of the woods haha but I decided to give it a go for fun and it turned out to be exceptionally elastic but very low density. I missed decent draw weight with it but it is now a 30# bow that has done many hours of shooting and still hasn't taken any further set. So even the 'rubbish' can be good:)
I had exactly the same experience. The wood was feather light and almost ERC soft but the elasticity was immediately apparent when bending. I managed a heavy weight out of it and drew it 33 inches many times. It is a 65 inch static.
-
Here's my lame answer for u; I think whichever is most plentifully available near you is the best Elm,
that’s not lame at all. it allows sleek to look thru lots of elm and figure out what makes one better than the other. growing conditions? age? density?
This is what TBB, other books, helpful bowyers online and the Bowyer from my village who taught me, made me think good bowwood is. In no particular order, for this weird Dutch fella here any good/suitable bowwood has these qualities;
- There is latewood enough,that we may chase the back ring easily. (for whitewoods, we can use what's under bark directly to save effort in finding suitable ring)
- There is enough heartwood if it's a species where u discard sapwood and use only heartwood (like Black Locust tree)
- For species that u want to utilize both sapwood and heartwood, it has good balance of sapwood and heartwood
- The piece has specific gravity that's ok. I'm no expert, I suck at maths like really bad so take with some salt
- U want as much as possible straight grained, knotless, straight shaped (like no doglegs, snaking or rollercoaster) piece of wood. Unless you're one of the bowyers who love character bow ofc (:
- It has enough amount of width and depth for design, base design ofc on properties of ur piece.
- it has enough size in length, to allow for mistakes always.
- Has preferably with some natural reflex, or recurve even.
To my simple brain, whichever type of tree species is plentiful (cheap or free also) and gives you bow staves with the above qualities, that is the best subspecies or species for u. I'm sure this is all super simple way of seeing this all still, hopefully it can aid a bit.
Ps;
As a last handy tidbit with elm trees also; Which might be good news to some Bowyers who've seen this disease take it's toll on local elm population:
Bowyers in NL found out that wood from trees, that have Dutch Elm Disease, is still able to be made into bows * So u can take Elm wood others maybe don't want that has D.E.D. and you'll be able to make bows out of it.
*Jan van der Veen, in the book "Houtkoorts" ("Woodfever" in English)
These are the factors I'd select for.. keep in mind ofc do things like it easiest for you. What makes one piece of bowwood, or a "species of bowwood "better than others, is having things from that list above of the top of my head, so be sure take it all with some salt. A piece of bowwood which has these things, it is easiest to make into bow for me I guess.
- Michael
-
The best white/American elm I've cut was very near the red river close by the lake Winnipeg estuary..high canopy forest on a flood plain.the wood had hues of bright yellow and pink.i cut no larger than 8" at the butt .younger trees seem more elastic.
-
bushboy
your criteria pulls together factors I found works well for birch also.
rich dirt
slow growth
juvenile growth
interesting about the hues of color. lots of minerals in the soil also?
-
I'm not sure about the mineral contents,but I would imagine high concentrations due to flood events.
-
A lot of our Elm grows right in swampy areas, often practically in water.
-
I cut an Elm one time that was growing at high elevation, it was mixed in with some HHB and Sugar Maple. This Elm was ... strange, and yes I was quite sure it was Elm. Density was absurdly low, low as in the density of Poplar, and the heartwood was very dark with hardly any sapwood. I brought the tree home but never made a bow out of it. I have never seen another tree like it
-
Sounds like a Red Elm. I know it grows quite widely through Ontario but I have only seen a couple of random trees through the years. Rock Elm is equally rare.
I think these two trees took a beating from being aggressively harvested for other uses even before the blight hit.
Red Elm also hybridizes with Siberian elm in the wild.
-
I have had good luck with winged Elm, most I have cut was good quality wood. You had to be careful to keep it dry, sucks up moisture worse than Hickory. ;)
Pappy