Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Flight Bows => Topic started by: DC on October 10, 2020, 06:31:39 pm
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I've decided to start this thread to track my making of flight arrows. This has been a sticky point for me and maybe if I write down what I'm doing people that know better can stop me before I waste a lot of time. I made two old growth Western Hemlock arrows a while back and they flew OK but I never got a chance to test them for distance. They were 28" long and spined at 50#. They were heavy compared to the weights I hear about at about 350 grains. I took them out to the backyard this morning and shot them at 10yds. They are fletched. They hit the target straight but I could see that they were nock right mid flight so I sanded one of them down. Tested it again and it looked better so I sanded more and this time it flew straight all the way to the target. I moved back to 15 yds and it was fine there. I measured the spine and it was 35#. There is no tip weight. Now it weighs 290 grains, much better. I thought I would try an Ocean Spray arrow in hopes of getting the same weight with a smaller diameter. I got it down to 43# spine and it was getting so skinny that the pith was starting to show at the ends(barrelled) and it still weighed 429 grains. I decided to assemble an arrow with 11" of OS in the middle and 7" and 10" of Hemlock front and back. I "V" jointed it together. This afternoon I sanded it down to 38#spine and barrelled it. It weighed 300 grains. The diameter was the same as the 290 gr Hemlock so I don't think it was worth the effort. It flew very well though so maybe it was recovering better. I decided to see how fast it was. I got 220fps but the arrow broke when it hit the target. So, don't test flight arrows on the shooting machine. I'll just assume that anything below 300gr is faster than anything above 300. Might not go as far but I haven't really got to that point yet.
And that's where I'm at. I think I learned some things but I'm a bit confused as to why the OS arrow didn't do better. How thin do you think I could make front and back if I drilled and filled the pith? Even if I did get it down to 35# spine I think it would still be way heavier than the Hemlock. OS is rather extreme so maybe I should try something more in the .7-.8 SG range?
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They were 28" long and spined at 50#.
Excuse a dumb question. I understand how modern composite arrows are spined, but exactly how does one define a 50# spine? What weight of bow the arrow will work for also involves the arrow length and tip weight, so it seems inaccurate to me to define a spine rating by bow weight?
It flew very well though so maybe it was recovering better.
The Easton X10 arrow is used by a lot of high level Olympic competitors because it is barrel shaped and the rear part of the shaft is spined more softly than the rest of the arrow shaft. This makes it more forgiving of bad shots by the archer, leading to higher scores. If your composite arrow shaft was also less stiff in the back portion that would explain it recovering better off the string.
I got 220fps but the arrow broke when it hit the target. So, don't test flight arrows on the shooting machine.
How do competitors test their arrows without breaking them? Only flight shoot them in an open field or use a backstop of loose straw or what?
Mark
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Mark
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php?topic=57378.0 (http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php?topic=57378.0)
so I sanded one of them down. Tested it again and it looked better so I sanded more and this time it flew straight all the way to the target. I moved back to 15 yds and it was fine there. I measured the spine and it was 35#. There is no tip weight. Now it weighs 290 grains,
Don, did you reduce the spine by sanding at the center third? before or after any barrelling?
in a nutshell, if you want to reduce spine, remove materiel in the center third, if you want to remove mass, reduce the outer thirds.
that said, if you barrel a parallel shaft with a known spine, it will static test less when you get done barreling, but the dynamic spine may not be reduced as much as the static test would indicate. Typically, the static testing charts assumes a parallel shaft.
you can certainly use static testing on barreled shafts for your own estimation purposes.
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You should be going a lot thinner on the front end. :)
Read this - http://www.turkishculture.org/lifestyles/turkish-culture-portal/turkish-flight-arrows-554.htm
Try making some shafts that copy the dimensions.
In Saracen Archery there is a short section about a flight arrows made with 3? different materials. Strong dense center section and lighter ends.
I think that stuff about the X10's softer rear section is marketing :) Have you seen the price of those suckers! I'd rather make my own haha.
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http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php?topic=57378.0 (http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php?topic=57378.0)
Thanks for that. So it appears the ATA # reading is arbitrary and you still need to figure out what spine you need once you have arrow length and tip weight factored in, which makes sense to me.
I think that stuff about the X10's softer rear section is marketing :) Have you seen the price of those suckers! I'd rather make my own haha.
It is very possible it is marketing hype, but that is what I have heard non-sponsored archers say about them. They are crushingly expensive. If I shot so well that I needed that level of arrow I would probably be sponsored and not concerned about the cost, but fortunately I suck so I can get by with cheap arrows and not know the difference.
Mark
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How do competitors test their arrows without breaking them? Only flight shoot them in an open field or use a backstop of loose straw or what?
Mark
I'm assuming so. Once you find the approximate spine so the arrow(and you) will survive the launch the rest seems to be aerodynamic so you need the long flight anyway. And the arrow that broke did survive being shot into a conventional target at 8-10 yards a half dozen times. The target bag in my shop is just too close at 7'. It's a burlap bag filled with plastic bags and old blankets that is free to swing from the ceiling. At Willie's suggestion I'm going to change the blankets for more plastic bags(the recycle bin is full of them) and that will make it lighter.
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Mark
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php?topic=57378.0 (http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php?topic=57378.0)
so I sanded one of them down. Tested it again and it looked better so I sanded more and this time it flew straight all the way to the target. I moved back to 15 yds and it was fine there. I measured the spine and it was 35#. There is no tip weight. Now it weighs 290 grains,
Don, did you reduce the spine by sanding at the center third? before or after any barrelling?
in a nutshell, if you want to reduce spine, remove materiel in the center third, if you want to remove mass, reduce the outer thirds.
that said, if you barrel a parallel shaft with a known spine, it will static test less when you get done barreling, but the dynamic spine may not be reduced as much as the static test would indicate. Typically, the static testing charts assumes a parallel shaft.
you can certainly use static testing on barreled shafts for your own estimation purposes.
Yes :D
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You should be going a lot thinner on the front end. :)
Read this - http://www.turkishculture.org/lifestyles/turkish-culture-portal/turkish-flight-arrows-554.htm
Try making some shafts that copy the dimensions.
In Saracen Archery there is a short section about a flight arrows made with 3? different materials. Strong dense center section and lighter ends.
I think that stuff about the X10's softer rear section is marketing :) Have you seen the price of those suckers! I'd rather make my own haha.
I just found and bookmarked that site yesterday. I have a piece of aircraft Spruce ready to go. The measurements given are for a 25" arrow. If I want a 28" arrow should I just multiply each dimension by 1.12(28 divided by 25). I'm concerned that will make the spine and arrow too heavy. I could reduce it from there though but that may mess up the aerodynamics.
For no particular reason I was pleased with the performance of the three piece arrow. I will try it again. Maybe with something a little lighter in the middle. Do you have a link to the info about them? One of the neat things about this sport is thinking you've come up with something new and finding out it was tried hundreds of years ago. I really think that other than new materials, everything has been tried.
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I really think that other than new materials, everything has been tried.
but old ways of doing things escape us.
I am curious about different ways to test flight arrows for their needed qualities. Is a three point deflection test as is commonly used for most arrows, the best way to evaluate flight arrows? Does anyone use a cantilever bend test on half the arrow? or a column buckling (compression) or other kind of test ?
https://pgmagirlscouts.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/saracen_archery.pdf (https://pgmagirlscouts.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/saracen_archery.pdf)
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The column buckling seems to me to be the test that would most duplicate the situation but for a couple of things. If the arrow is even slightly bend it's going to buckle that way. Also the ends of the arrow would have to be precisely square for the test. If pointed, the point would have to be dead center. We used to very slightly angle the bottom of the masts on our model sailboats to induce a forward bend when we tightened the stays. The masts were 5' long and 1/2" dia and just knocking one side off a bit with a file would cause the mast to bend forward. If you wanted the mast to stay straight it had to be turned on a lathe. It was a very sensitive part of setting up a boat.
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Saracen Arrows on a girl guide site????
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It finally downloaded, boy that was slow, but it looks like a very cool pdf. Thank you.
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The column buckling seems to me to be the test that would most duplicate the situation but for a couple of things. If the arrow is even slightly bend it's going to buckle that way.
its going to bend out of the bow any way, so maybe knowing which way would be informative. I have been making replicas of NA atlatl darts. A compression test is commonly used by dartmakers to determine "spine". I have one unusual dart example that can only be placed in the atlatl/spear-thrower one way, and it is elliptical in cross section, so it is well understood which way it is going to flex first.
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Yes it would be informative but can you trust a piece of wood to keep the same bend, especially after you've straightened it. But I guess that's going to happen anyway. I've been thinking a pipe clamp would work. One of those long ones with the screw thing on the end. I think they're called a pipe clamp ::) ::)
PS yes the pipe clamp worked. One arrow popped through the same every time and the other seemed to kinda prefer one area but not consistently. Bothe the arrows had the nock already cut--- wrong :D
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so what I find with the darts is when you compress the dart on a scale, the force builds until the shaft springs sideways. at that point, more force causes more deflection, but the scale sort of stabilizes. hard to describe.
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DC, Your systematic approach should serve you well. A well tuned arrow makes a big difference.
I have an article in my files somewhere written by one or the leading flight archers of the 1970’s. I recall that he used a test where he measured the buckling force on his arrows. But it may have been different thing because the arrows were shot with a release through a keyhole type riser.
I used to sort my flight arrows by their natural vibration frequency. It requires good organization and good note taking in order to get something out of it.
Alan
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How would you measure the frequency?
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How would you measure the frequency?
Usually, I balance the arrow near my ear and tap it. This will emphasize a higher pitch 4th mode harmonic, but I can clearly hear it. The frequency it rings at is a function of its distribution of stiffness and mass.
Alan
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Oh good one thing I can forget. I've got hearing aids.
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Alan, I think it was in the build a long you mentioned pinching feathers to decide if they were good for flight arrows. Have you arrived at a legal species to use? Can a feather be too floppy/soft?
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Does the cock fletch have to be 90°to the string? I want to try some vellum fletching but the arrow has a horn insert in the nock end that is 90° to the string(right where i want the cock fletch to be) and it will be very difficult to cut a groove for the fletch in that thin piece of horn.
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Alan, I think it was in the build a long you mentioned pinching feathers to decide if they were good for flight arrows. Have you arrived at a legal species to use? Can a feather be too floppy/soft?
I have had success with various pheasant tail feathers and smaller waterfowl feathers. I used to have some Guinea fowl feathers that worked pretty well too. I used to sort through a lot of feathers to find a few precious ones that were exceptionally stiff and thin. The shape and size of the feather is pretty important to combat flutter. My best mimic the shape of the typical Turkish flight arrow. I make the height about the same as the diameter of the arrow shaft.
It has been too long since I have been able to devote time to the natural material flight categories. It seems like vanes from thin vellum parchment should work better. Ivar Malde used vanes made from some kind of durable hand made paper for his 600+yard record. Adam Karpowicz also uses this kind of vane for his horn bow flight arrows and they work great. The only thing I found which could be better is vanes made from very high quality water buffalo horn. They seemed very promising if you can avoid contact with the bow.
Alan
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I've been making shafts out of various woods. I have a 25" Hemlock with a .700 deflection, 2 lbs @ 22" That flies well so I'm trying to duplicate that in different wood to see if I can get a smaller diameter. So far I've tried Hemlock, Doug Fir, Ocean Spray, Sitka Spruce, Beauty Bush and Cotoneaster. (PS and Black Walnut) All of them except the OS ended up with close to the same diameter. The OS was getting to close to the pith to continue reducing and it still weighs 470 some grains. The weights were similar too with the Hemlock being the lightest at 213 grains. Should I be seeing a bigger difference? Did I happen to pick woods with a similar weight/stiffness ratio? I finally get to go shoot them this weekend so that may tell me something. I do have one OS arrow that I cut out of a stave so it has no pith. I can reduce it more but it weighs almost as much as the bow ;) ;) ;) so I don't think OS is the answer. It just seems that it doesn't really matter what wood I use. Can you see something I'm doing wrong?
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Should I be seeing a bigger difference? Did I happen to pick woods with a similar weight/stiffness ratio?
arrow stiffness changes fast as diameter increases. on a bigger order of magnitude than if you optimize material stiffness.
on the other hand, diameter imposes its own aerodynamic penalties that cannot be avoided.
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I thought that the idea was that you can use a denser, stiffer wood and so reduce the diameter and end up with the same weight and spine in a skinnier package but it's looking like dimensions trump density. At least as far as stiffness is concerned.
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I thought that the idea was that you can use a denser, stiffer wood and so reduce the diameter and end up with the same weight and spine in a skinnier package but it's looking like dimensions trump density. At least as far as stiffness is concerned.
Stiffness is proportional to the 4th power of the diameter, so it is vastly more influential than material. If you double the stiffness of your material (which is hard to do with wood) then the diameter only drops to 84% of the original diameter.
Mark
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the 4th power of the diameter
that seems decisive enough to just work with whatever Dfir, hemlock. spruce, larch or pine has a reasonably high stiffness:density ratio. one criteria might be how well your choice survives impacts. oven dried wood might be too brash in spite of stiffness gains. I think I read where different woods were tested for brashness/impact in the aircraft spruce alternative paper. Also some interesting comparisons at the end of the paper.
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/19930091423/downloads/19930091423.pdf (https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/19930091423/downloads/19930091423.pdf)
Do the records in the class you wish to enter show any arrow specs? knowing more about the typical arrow may help you choose whether the lightest possible arrow is actually better than a heavier one that might carry further in spite of a lesser initial velocity.
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I took a half dozen arrows to the field today. All my new low spine were too low spine. They came out of the bow sideways so 35# 28" no tips is too light. It's looking like 50# spine is what I need even with no tip weight. I had made 6 arrows all little different were and there and they all shot within a few yds of each other. No joy there.
What does a tail wind do to arrow flight? Mostly I'm wondering about the difference between heavy and light arrows. Like will a heavy arrow benefit more from a tail wind or vice versa.
I did shoot a PB at about 260 yds with a Hemlock 37# spine 312 grain arrow. The wind had changed to cross wind by then. I think it was just a 50# bow instead of a 40# bow.
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DC, at 260 yards you are still not getting good distance so I wouldn't use those arrows as a model. Anything under 300 yards you are not getting good flight. Your bow is fast enough to hit 400+yards with decent arrow flight.
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Yeah, I was shooting against hunting bows and was only 20 yds past them. I was getting very poor launch I think. How much can the launch affect the distance? Somehow I just can't see anything that will get me out to 400 yds. Even if I changed a half dozen things that got me 10 yds each I'm still short.
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Yeah, I was shooting against hunting bows and was only 20 yds past them. I was getting very poor launch I think. How much can the launch affect the distance? Somehow I just can't see anything that will get me out to 400 yds. Even if I changed a half dozen things that got me 10 yds each I'm still short.
The elusive clean loose can add 30 yards... you can shoot half a dozen arrows and 5 of 'em are within a few paces of each other... you eventually find the other 30 yards on :)
I remember with one disappointing try out session, I was a bout to go home and thought I'd have one more shot... never saw it go and it was way further than my others. :) (I'd probably stopped worrying and just went for it)
Del
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Can you bare shaft effectively with no tip weight?
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This is very discouraging. I spend the morning making an arrow only to have it break on the first test shot. Fine grained Doug Fir, 55# spine, barrelled, about 8 yds from the target, no tip weight, 50# bow. It seemed to hit the target reasonably straight but it didn't stick in, just split into two pieces. There was some grain run out but the split is 10" long. I would trust a scarf joint 30 times as long as the thickness. How the heck do you guys make flight arrows?
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can you describe your target? you might need to slow the arrow easier.
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You are not looking for several little things that will get you 10 yards each, this is nothing like bow building, you are looking for one little thing that will get you a 100 yards. If you can see you arrow fly it is most likely a bad shot. I think you need to have your arrows closer to 200 grains and then figure the spine you need. I believe 50# is too much spine regardless of how you say they flew. You can loose a lot of velocity in the first 10 ft which takes about 1/25 of a second. If your bow is close to center shot it would need more spine than 1" deflection at 22 inch centers and 2# weight.
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can you describe your target? you might need to slow the arrow easier.
It's a Bulldog.
You are not looking for several little things that will get you 10 yards each, this is nothing like bow building, you are looking for one little thing that will get you a 100 yards. If you can see you arrow fly it is most likely a bad shot. I think you need to have your arrows closer to 200 grains and then figure the spine you need. I believe 50# is too much spine regardless of how you say they flew. You can loose a lot of velocity in the first 10 ft which takes about 1/25 of a second. If your bow is close to center shot it would need more spine than 1" deflection at 22 inch centers and 2# weight.
This is what's killing me. To get down to 200 grains on a 28" arrow the spine is 30-35#and the arrow flies sideways. I can't get by that. I need a clue and I haven't got one ;)
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When you say it leaves sideways? Can you see it leave or are you looking at an elongated width on your paper hole?
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How long are you making your tapered point?? I didn't realize you were using 28" arrows, I was thinking over 24" arrows
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When you say it leaves sideways? Can you see it leave or are you looking at an elongated width on your paper hole?
I can see them flying off sideways. I've abandoned paper testing until I can get somewhere close to good flight. I'll try it again for fine tuning.
How long are you making your tapered point?? I didn't realize you were using 28" arrows, I was thinking over 24" arrows
I'm using that museum picture of a Turkish arrow only deviding it into 7" sections. Sorry about the confusion, my fault, I've been jumping from pillar to post and expecting you guys to follow me. Yeah I'm trying to get my 50#@28" bow to shoot far ;D When you suggested that I make a 50# bow were you meaning 50#@25"?
Anyway that may explain why I've been so confused.
So, as to making flight arrows for a 50#@28" bow. I know the bow shoots well with 400 grain arrows, 50-55#spine and about 75-100 grain points. If I'm going pointless(there's a joke in there somewhere) using the 5# of spine for every 25 grains of point weight removed rule I should have a spine of 35-40#. That doesn't work. 35# arrows fly like crap. Does the rule get kid of iffy at low tip weights?
So should I make a 50# spine arrow with no tip or fletching and just keep planing it down until it flies well to arrive at a suitable spine and then start thinking about aerodynamics?
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using the 5# of spine for every 25 grains of point weight removed rule I should have ....
this is a rule of thumb for approximating dynamic spine from static spine with hunting weight arrows.
So should I make a 50# spine arrow with no tip or fletching and just keep planing it down until it flies well
this method seems more reasonable with the extreme weight reduction and tapering going on with these flight arrows
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using the 5# of spine for every 25 grains of point weight removed rule I should have ....
this is a rule of thumb for approximating dynamic spine from static spine with hunting weight arrows.
So you don't think it applies because---
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I don't think it is a case of whether it applies or doesn't, I think the rule works better for parallel shafts with a normal range of tip weight, and may be less useful when shafts are tapered and have very minimal tips, minimal fletchings, and you are trying to see how little stiffness (diameter) you can get by with.
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I have never used any kind of real approach to flight arrows as I was always primarily interested in the broadhead events. In the week before the shoot I would usually make up about 25 arrows or so according to whatever theory I was trying out and then take them out and shoot them, if they didn't work come back next year with something different. My biggest problem was keeping them round because I taper them on a belt sander turning the m by hand. Best I came up with over the years was a slight taper from front to back with the front 3" tapered and a point more rounded and not needle like. Spine on the better ones was usually a good inch of deflection with 2# weight sometimes even more. The arrow I hit 386 with was about 220 grains if I remember right and purple heart. I never had another good shot with that same arrow but it did consistently hit over 300 yards.
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How long was the Purpleheart arrow and what was the point weight? That's fixed for broadhead isn't it?
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How long was the Purpleheart arrow and what was the point weight? That's fixed for broadhead isn't it?
No I was talking flight arrows with no point weight. I usually spine my broadheads at 55# 28" long about 100 grains point weight. I am having some major issues with the broadhead division right now about fletching and arrows.
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How about centershot? You mentioned Ivar's very light arrows and in a later post Alan said something about his centershot bow and his release aid. If you have an arrow that is low spine centershot isn't going to help the flight is it? I can kinda see a release helping. Maybe if this finger flipping the string is a bigger thing than I thought. Is it the butterfly flap that starts a hurricane ;D?
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Don,
Do give a release a try. I do prefer using a simple non-mechanical release, especially when shooting very light spine arrows.
I did have an interesting experience shooting Broadhead flight this last year. We are allowed to use a non-mechanical release with the modern recurve Broadhead event, so I shot three arrows with a finger release, and three arrows with a simple hook&loop release. I took my time drawing back with the back side of the Broadhead touching off on the back of the bow to set the draw length. I noticed the finger release arrows were kicking off to the side and I thought these shots were going to give terrible results. The arrows shot with a release appeared to leave the bow much cleaner without any side-to-side wag. To my surprise, the longest shots were the arrows shot with the finger release! How this happened is a mystery to me.
I usually have opposite results where the arrows shot with the release do better, although this was usually with light flight arrows.
Alan
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What is a hook and loop release? I googled it and what I got sure looks mechanical to me.
PS I found the pictures that Willie posted of what I think is hook and loop. With this and the number 9 releases do you have to rotate your hand 90°?
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I see some you rotate your hand and some you twist your hand and some you hold pressure with your thumb and then relax.
http://presleysoutdoors6.blogspot.com/2014/02/larry-wise-core-archery-academy.html (http://presleysoutdoors6.blogspot.com/2014/02/larry-wise-core-archery-academy.html)
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That was a pretty cool article on releases. The hook and loop release I referred to earlier is similar to the rope-spike releases shown near the beginning of the article. It takes a little practice at first, but quickly becomes so natural that it releases cleanly at full draw without little deliberate thought. I remember handing one to a fellow flight archer the first time and it didn’t release when he thought it should, so he completely let go of the release and the bow sent the release and arrow together down range!
I like the simple hook ones that let go with a slight rotation also. The smaller you can make the hook, the cleaner it releases the arrow.
Alan
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Well I may be stupid but looking at those pictures doesn't help me know how they work or how to use them. ;D Any videos? Not the ones in the article. I can see that they are holding something and that eventually the arrow disappears but that's all.
I did figure out how the figure 9 ones work. I made one once that was just a strap of leather that went around the string and you pinched the end of it. It worked well but when the leather flipped around the string it smacked my knuckle real hard. I only used it a few times and then screamed the safe word :D
The one with the string loop and the barely bent wire has me puzzled.
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I hope you get it figured out DC. I’m wanting to play in this sand box to. I haven’t watched any of the videos or links yet but I hope we can both figure this out.
I’m curious about thing like % of foc. Spine, tip weight, fletching. Length Rules. Different categories.
Badger mentions a 25” arrow. That would fit my draw nicely, but I was thinking I would have to somehow stretch out my draw to 28” (I have to stretch it out to 25” as it is) and go with a 50@28 bow.
For now I’m just having fun shooting my 600 grain river cane pole barn spike point arrows and watching them fly. I only have to walk about half as far to get them as what you guys are talking.
Bjrogg
PS hope to give you some encouragement DC
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Badger mentions a 25” arrow. That would fit my draw nicely, but I was thinking I would have to somehow stretch out my draw to 28” (I have to stretch it out to 25” as it is) and go with a 50@28 bow.
What i've learned is basically that the starting point is minimizing ratio of grains to poundage. If i'm shooting for a distance record, i never go over 200 grains with the arrow. In the 50-90# shortbows or composite bows it means something like 4gpp to 1,6gpp. But physics tell us one should go much lower if at all possible to get the maximum distance.
Harry Drake shot in 1945 a 69 pound yew bow with 23" arrow weighing 135 grains some 541 yards. So that goes along nicely with the theory!
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Yes, but lighter arrows are more susceptible to drag.
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Yes, but lighter arrows are more susceptible to drag.
theoretically yes, assuming two stabilized arrows of otherwise similar dimensions. I wonder if early stabilization and reduction of consequent velocity losses seem more important, even to the point of having a heavier (stiffer) arrow than than the one Harry managed to shoot.
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I think the trick is to shoot them cleanly to begin with so very little stabilization is needed.
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if that could be done, why would we need fletchings? seems to me there is always some settling down the arrow has to accomplish..... a matter of degree etc.
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DC, Your systematic approach should serve you well. A well tuned arrow makes a big difference.
I have an article in my files somewhere written by one or the leading flight archers of the 1970’s. I recall that he used a test where he measured the buckling force on his arrows. But it may have been different thing because the arrows were shot with a release through a keyhole type riser.
I used to sort my flight arrows by their natural vibration frequency. It requires good organization and good note taking in order to get something out of it.
Alan
Say what!!!! Call the country boy and explain!!! Arvin
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Arvin, which part of that post are you curious about?
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Badger mentions a 25” arrow. That would fit my draw nicely, but I was thinking I would have to somehow stretch out my draw to 28” (I have to stretch it out to 25” as it is) and go with a 50@28 bow.
What i've learned is basically that the starting point is minimizing ratio of grains to poundage. If i'm shooting for a distance record, i never go over 200 grains with the arrow. In the 50-90# shortbows or composite bows it means something like 4gpp to 1,6gpp. But physics tell us one should go much lower if at all possible to get the maximum distance.
Harry Drake shot in 1945 a 69 pound yew bow with 23" arrow weighing 135 grains some 541 yards. So that goes along nicely with the theory!
I think the arrows were a bit heavier(145?) and according to Dan Perry the bow was actually quite a bit heavier initially. Harry used shelf type overdraws so I wouldn't doubt if this bow shot the shorter arrow at an actual longer draw.
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Here is a letter from Drake.