Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: bradsmith2010 on November 21, 2020, 11:52:13 am

Title: starting a hickory bow,,
Post by: bradsmith2010 on November 21, 2020, 11:52:13 am
  Got a really nice piece of hickory from Allyn,, going to see what I can do,, I was agressive and split into 4 pieces,,for some sinew bows,, I hope,, the last peace is a bit small but I think will make a shorter bow,,
the other ones are 60 inches,, and gonna work on that today and rough out to floor tiller and then heat bend the whole bow into reflex,,
and go from there, I probably not gonna use a caul on this,, just tiller it backwards and heat it, and see what it does,,gonna put 3 layers bout of sinew, and then fast cure it,,just for fun,, and see how it does through the chrono,,at 60 inches I will just tiller out till it starts to shoot good,, guessing it will be ok at 28 or maybe a little more but will just test it as I go,,and see when it starts shooting hard,,well thats my plan ,, but will see how it goes,,,
   Im not going for a specific draw weight,, or draw length,,as I tiller it out, when it starts shooting hard and is bending even I will stop,, and take whatever the poundage is,at that draw,, , unless its too heavy for me to draw, and I will tame it down a bit,, :)
Title: Re: starting a hickory bow,,
Post by: Hawkdancer on November 21, 2020, 12:04:58 pm
Have fun! Make shaving, and pat pic! :BB (SH)
Hawkdancer
Title: Re: starting a hickory bow,,
Post by: bradsmith2010 on November 21, 2020, 12:57:56 pm
ok I gonna post pics later,,  :)
ok got it going a bit,, will finish taking off bark and shape the bow rough, hopefully today or first thing morning,,
Title: Re: starting a hickory bow,,
Post by: simson on November 22, 2020, 02:10:11 am
Nice looking staves there, Brad.
I'm curious what you will doing with them.
Title: Re: starting a hickory bow,,
Post by: PaSteve on November 22, 2020, 07:09:12 am
Sounds like a neat experiment Brad. Looking forward to seeing the results. When you say fast cure the sinew... What time frame are you expecting? Also, how much more weight do you think it will gain when the sinew is "fully" cured? Good luck.
Title: Re: starting a hickory bow,,
Post by: bradsmith2010 on November 22, 2020, 11:25:05 am
   its so dry here in Sant fe,, that the sinew drys pretty quick and then doesnt gain much weight after curing for a more conventional time frame,,if I start tillering the bow in one or two weeks  with two layers of sinew,, on thicker layer I try to wait a bit longer,, ,  I tried to string one too soon and cant describe it but it felt mushy, so I just let it cure more,,when I go back and weigh the bow weeks or months later,, its the same, now that being said,, when I made some bows in Texas 20 years ago with high humidity,, the bows would pic up weight as the sinew cured,, here they seem to stabalize and pretty much stay the same,, they stop pulling reflex and gaining weight after tillered and shot in,,
   Sometimes I think if I was more patient,, the bow might perform better if I let it cure longer,, and it might,, but shooting through the chrono,, I get a positive result,, and I realize I may have compromised the performance a little, but it does not seem to have much negative effect,,,
   if I string the bow, and it seems to tiller well, I feel the sinew is ok,, and even if it did pick up some weight I would be ok with that,, even Laubin in his book says a couple of weeks is ok,, to start one,,,,usually takes me a week or two to tiller, so its drying then too,,
    I have just been experienting to see what I can do, I made a kids bow from Juniper and just waited 1 or 2 days and started shooting it,, just to see,, it only had one layer,, I saw no negative effect,, I didnt weigh it, just tillered it and shot it,,
    most the time Im working with osage,, so when I put the sinew on the hickory, the short cure time may not work,,but it will be fun to see what it does, and if it picks up weight or if it will shoot hard with a fast cure time,,
     I am just working on a bow now, that has two layers, I did wait over two weeks,,not much,, it will shoot a 468 grain arrow 175 fps  it is 56##26 inches,, the arrow is lighter that 10 gpp,, but I consisder it a hunting weight arrow,, the bow is 62 inches long,, and the 26 inch draw would he condidered short for that length sinew bow,, at 28 or 29 would probably be more effecient,,that was tested with b55 ,, I think with fast flight it would be to 180 with the 8.36 gpp,,,and at the longer draw maybe a little better,, so if the fast cure is hurting the performance Im not sure,, the sinew can cure in the state it is in now I think, I dont think I damaged it,,
     since I always think of the bow as a hunting bow,, once they get to a point of being able to take a deer I am pretty happy,, I have  just enjoyed pushing the time frame a bit to see what happens with no expectaion,, I am just not patient,, these are just simple bows, I am sure with more complicated designs cure time would be an important factor,,
      I plan on letting the hickory dry for a week and then string it and see how it feels, if it feels mushy or not stable, well I learn something and wait longer on that one or,,, the next one ,,,if I ruin it somehow,, bending a hing or something,,
   I wanted to add the stave is at 8% moisture the best I can tell, I am sure it will pick up some moisture when I put the sinew on,, I will paint the belly to hopefully keep it from checking when I put the sinew on,,
   I have had good success with that,, some put tape and I think that works well too,,
Title: Re: starting a hickory bow,,
Post by: PaSteve on November 22, 2020, 11:41:39 am
Thanks for sharing that info Brad. Interesting.
Title: Re: starting a hickory bow,,
Post by: Bob Barnes on November 22, 2020, 11:50:03 am
thanks for doing this ... I'm watching and enjoying the information...  :OK
Title: Re: starting a hickory bow,,
Post by: bradsmith2010 on November 22, 2020, 12:21:52 pm
ok sorry for the long post,,
Simson, just a straight D bow with 2 or three layers of sinew,,
with a gentle reflex in the whole bow,
no built up handle just slightly bend in handle,,
very rough roughed out pics,,
will go to draw knife and rasp and get it to bend,,

you can see it has a bit of character,, it just split out that way, I didnt try to make it straight,, by cutting it,,
just let it flow with the grain like it wants,,  :)
Title: Re: starting a hickory bow,,
Post by: willie on November 22, 2020, 01:16:22 pm
Quote
I plan on letting the hickory dry for a week and then string it and see how it feels, if it feels mushy or not stable, well I learn something

Have you thought to use a grain scale to monitor the moisture loss after applying the sinew? Perhaps you can accelerate the drying process with heat/sunshine/breeze once the initial bulk of the moisture is gone?
Title: Re: starting a hickory bow,,
Post by: bradsmith2010 on November 22, 2020, 01:56:10 pm
good point I need to try that,, I do put a small fan on it,, but I need a scale for sure
Title: Re: starting a hickory bow,,
Post by: Allyn T on November 22, 2020, 05:47:09 pm
I'd bet dollars to donuts you get 3 bows done before mine lol. I hope it makes some good shooting bows
Title: Re: starting a hickory bow,,
Post by: bradsmith2010 on November 22, 2020, 06:19:32 pm
im gonna slow down so you can catch up,,  (W
Title: Re: starting a hickory bow,,
Post by: Allyn T on November 22, 2020, 06:25:15 pm
I didnt know slow was in your vocabulary  8)
Title: Re: starting a hickory bow,,
Post by: bradsmith2010 on November 22, 2020, 06:57:59 pm
well yes, just put it on a long string and post here,, it will motivate you to make some progress..finish at your convenience,,  :) however long it takes just enjoy the process,,,
Title: Re: starting a hickory bow,,
Post by: Selfbowman on November 22, 2020, 07:14:13 pm
Watching and Learning. Arvin
Title: Re: starting a hickory bow,,
Post by: Allyn T on November 22, 2020, 07:21:55 pm
I'm half tempted to just start a new one and finish this one later. If I kill a couple deer here soon I might make some progress
Title: Re: starting a hickory bow,,
Post by: bradsmith2010 on November 22, 2020, 08:21:25 pm
yes deer hunting can slow you down, I did not draw a tag,, and cant get to Texas so Im making bows so I dont go crazy,,, (W
Title: Re: starting a hickory bow,,
Post by: Hawkdancer on November 23, 2020, 12:07:44 am
Living in the high, dry will do that to you!  Fries the brain or something  On the other hand, staves cure quickly (lol) :BB (SH). 
Hawkdancer
Title: Re: starting a hickory bow,,
Post by: Allyn T on November 23, 2020, 09:03:29 am
I am lucky enough I can always get three deer tags no matter what
Title: Re: starting a hickory bow,,
Post by: simson on November 24, 2020, 07:11:39 am
ok sorry for the long post,,
Simson, just a straight D bow with 2 or three layers of sinew,,
with a gentle reflex in the whole bow,
no built up handle just slightly bend in handle,,
very rough roughed out pics,,
will go to draw knife and rasp and get it to bend,,

you can see it has a bit of character,, it just split out that way, I didnt try to make it straight,, by cutting it,,
just let it flow with the grain like it wants,,  :)

well, you said it is 60" long. Why will you back that thing? For a bendy handle it is long enough.
Title: Re: starting a hickory bow,,
Post by: bradsmith2010 on November 24, 2020, 09:49:52 am
   Simson, I am just experiementing to see what it will do through the chrono,,yes good point you are right,, I have been experimenting lately with the sinew, I just really enjoy it,, I guess really I have gone bout as short as I can go 0n some bows, and experimenting with longer draws with sinew to see the point of diminishing return,, as far as applying to longer bow with longer draw,, a 60 inch sinew bow ,, drawn to 30 inches ,, should be releative to drawing a 50 inch bow to 25 with sinew was my thinking,,
thank you so much for your input,, greatly apprecitated,,
   as I shoot the bow through the chrono, I can see when the bow strarts to perform well or at what draw,, I may have to take it out to 30 inches to take advantage of the sinew, but I will start testing at shorter draws to see how the performance does ,, hoping the sinew backed bow will hold more reflex at  the longer draw,,,hoping to see how the performance would compare to an unbacked bow same length same draw,,,,
Title: Re: starting a hickory bow,,
Post by: Morgan on November 24, 2020, 11:00:34 am
Brad, have you sinewed hickory before? I am curious of the benefits of a sinewed hickory over a non sinew in your bone dry climate? Meaning would you gain speed even with the added weight?
Title: Re: starting a hickory bow,,
Post by: bradsmith2010 on November 24, 2020, 02:27:07 pm
  Morgan, Im really not sure, but should be able to tell something as I do this one,,
it may be a wash,, I am hoping the added reflex, will help with the added weight of the sinew, and that being able to draw it to 30 if needed with out taking any set,, might be postive,, but I am just learning about the hickory out here,, I made a pecan bow with sinew but it was short and shot nice,, so I am in uncharted waters for now,, on the hickory..
  Ok Im just thinking out loud, but for example take a 50# self bow would have a mass of so much,, ok now sinew back it,, its gonna gain 20#,,roughly,, ok to tiller it back to 50 you would have to take off wood that would reduce the mass somewhat,, maybe even get close to the same mass weight that was for the self bow,,, so that would compensate for the weight of the sinew a bit,,( i have weighed piles of saw dust before to check this,,but dont think I gonna get that crazy on this one,,)
   now say the bow is holding 3 inches of reflex,,compared to a bow that is even no string follow,,
for me a 60 inch self bow draw to 30 inches would be pushing it,,,and probably gonna follow the string a bit,,   but the sinew backed bow could hold reflex at the 30 inch draw,, so I am thinking not only would the bow be less likly to break at the long draw, but might improve performance a bit,, but just speculating now, but after shooting through the chronograph, will now better,, and if there is no advantage,, then I will try a 58 inch bow next time and so on,, to see where is does become an advange,,for me,, Now I know PatM gonna chime in and say ,,, Brad they figured that out about 1000 years ago,, OK ,, im sure,, but I am just having fun seeing the results first hand,,,and hope I gonna learn something,,

   
Title: Re: starting a hickory bow,,
Post by: Allyn T on November 24, 2020, 06:54:54 pm
I think you should def weigh sawdust  :OK
Title: Re: starting a hickory bow,,
Post by: bradsmith2010 on November 24, 2020, 07:02:20 pm
you probably right,, how anybody gonna take me serious if I dont,, :NN
Title: Re: starting a hickory bow,,
Post by: Allyn T on November 24, 2020, 07:29:47 pm
Real bowyer's weigh everything, better weigh your glue too just to keep it legit
Title: Re: starting a hickory bow,,
Post by: Morgan on November 24, 2020, 10:24:30 pm
Brad, I had no idea the sinew would make it gain so much draw weight. I know that the sinew makes it hold reflex through extreme draw length for a given bow length. Have you ever removed the sinew on such a bow after shooting for a while? I wonder if the bow would still be reflexed right after the sinew is removed or if the wood still took set that the sinew is overcoming. I’m excited to see your projects. I probably will not ever sinew a bow, not for a long time anyway, so I appreciate you doing this build along for us to see the ins and outs of it.
Title: Re: starting a hickory bow,,
Post by: bradsmith2010 on November 25, 2020, 11:48:12 am
   Allyn, gonna weigh the glue   ;D
Morgan, I did have the sinew come off a bow,, not on purpose,, but the sinew had kept the bow from taking set,, I thought was interesting,,
there are so many variables,,even in the sinew itself, it makes it challenging I think,,but I have had some really nice shooting bows,, and enjoy the results I get,,lately I have just tried some different things,,this hickory bow will be one of them,,
   I dont have my notes in front of me,, but the bow that the sinew came off, was about 54 inches long, and it would shoot about 180 fps with a 10 gpp arrow,, at 27 inces of draw,, it was osage,, I am going to put the sinew back on, I recurved the tips and gonna see how it shoots as a recurve,,
Title: Re: starting a hickory bow,,
Post by: bradsmith2010 on November 26, 2020, 01:57:20 pm
u can kinda see the side profile starting to shape here, workin with my 1968 workmate outside today,, thought you might like to see my new rasp,, its call the Beast,,
Title: Re: starting a hickory bow,,
Post by: bradsmith2010 on November 26, 2020, 08:21:11 pm
I put the bow on long string backwards and lightly heated reflex into the whole bow,,
its holding bout 2 inches reflex now,, going to take a bit more wood off and heat again tomorrow and go for 3 inches reflex and then sinew it,,
I heated it over the coals made from sacred mammoth tusk, ok just kidding, I used a butane torch,, (-S  no caul just pulled backwards,,it has nice even reflex,,
Title: Re: starting a hickory bow,,
Post by: Allyn T on November 27, 2020, 05:18:28 am
That's a good call, regular mammoth tusk just don't get hot enough  (=)
Title: Re: starting a hickory bow,,
Post by: simson on November 27, 2020, 09:49:12 am
looking good so far
Nice truck btw., would like to have something like that.
Title: Re: starting a hickory bow,,
Post by: bradsmith2010 on December 14, 2020, 10:11:19 pm
two nice hickory bows strung backwards with the sinew drying,, one has been on since Dece 6th, as promised I will push the dry time a little shorter than some ,, just to see what happens,, will keep you posted,, they are both holding reflex without the string,, so hope they will hold some when tillered out to shoot,,dont have a specific draw weight or length, will just shoot through the chrono as I go and stop when bending even and shooting good, I have a goal as far as cast goes,, so will see how they go,,I left the tip of my shoes for scale,, :)  I may give one away if they turn out,, but will keep the best one for myself and tell the other person Im giving him the best one,, right,, :) :BB and exaggerate just a bit, on fps with he bow I give away,, just round it up a bit,,like if its shooting 162 Ill just say getting close to 170,,, :)
Title: Re: starting a hickory bow,,
Post by: Allyn T on December 15, 2020, 10:07:04 am
Looking good   :)
Title: Re: starting a hickory bow,,
Post by: bradsmith2010 on December 16, 2020, 11:21:58 pm
got a scale for Christmas,, the wider bows weighs 22.9 oz and the more narrow bow weighs 19.8,, I looked in Volumne 4,, and both are above suggested mass weight for a 50# bow,, but since they are a bit heavy to string, I think when I start to tiller I will get closer to what would be average mass weight on both, may have to side tiller a bit on the wide one, but not gonna do that till I get to 20 inches and see how they bending but, will be intersting to shoot them through the chrono, and see if the mass weight difference translates in to the cast, or taking set or all that,,bow making stuff that drives us crazy,, (-S
Title: Re: starting a hickory bow,,
Post by: Allyn T on December 17, 2020, 05:25:09 am
It'll be very interesting to see. I wonder how the weight of sinew will factor in? Oh man new scale, gonna be weighing everything : )
Title: Re: starting a hickory bow,,
Post by: bradsmith2010 on December 18, 2020, 12:36:58 am
   well I got this bad boy strung tonight,, I thought it felt a little heavy, the string made a really high ping, so I weighed it on my new digital christmas present scale, and it was 50#@14  ,, well if I did the math right that would put it right about 85# at 28, and 90#@30inches, about,,
well thats too much, I unstrung it ,, had a couple places looked a little hingy,,  not too bad , but figured I take the weight down quite a bit,, tomorrow,, u can see its got a bit of curves and character too it,, making the tiller a bit hard to see, but with a fresh eye I hope to even it out,
I put the sinew on it December 6,,,probably gonna take a few days to tiller it, but I really misjudged the amount of wood I needed or didnt expect it to be that heavy,, the bow weighs about 22 oz now,,  looking at Badgers chart would be ok for 80# but if I go down to 50 it says about 12 to 18 0z depending on how much bend in handle,, Im just trying to get in the ball park of that,,cause not sure if the chart is for sinew backed bows,,
   when I get it bending little better,, so it dont look awful, I post some pics of the bow strung and pulled to 50# unbraced and all that,,
   I had painted the belly, didnt get any belly cracks,, yet,, well and it didnt blow up when I strung it ,, so far so good,,
Title: Re: starting a hickory bow,,
Post by: Allyn T on December 18, 2020, 06:35:38 am
That's a heavy dang bow, glad the wood surprised you or maybe the sinew was super strong!