Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Tradslinger on January 25, 2021, 06:11:33 pm
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My first bows were board bows, figured that it was the cheapest way to learn on. Also better to mess up a bow that I had under $10 in versus a stave that I had bought. As a newbee, there are so many things to consider, most of which are not even thought of. Even though I had watched several videos on each step of the build, I still failed to grasp the importance of several things. I didn't really understand what or how the floor tiller show be or really look like. The big deal to me was tillering, it was the most important part. So, as I went to use the long string for it's portion of the tillering, I did several things wrong. 1st, had too long of a string and 2nd, got in too big of a hurry then 3rd, used the long string too much. So, I ended up with a false tiller as it didn't look or act anything like the real tillering should have. The video of Swiftbows explained the reason why I had failed so terribly. I was drawing the limbs in a manner that the bow would never be drawn. From what I could tell, this affected several things, including bow draw weight. So now I use a much shorter long string, that is even tight but not full braced or even halfway braced. So now I will get a truer reading of the limbs. Also I am taking my time and really inspecting everything more closely before I remove more wood. Speed is not my friend, at least not yet, maybe later down the road. I am about making a bow worthy of hunting with and one to be proud of.
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When you get a few bows under yer belt a good floor tiller will eliminate most long string needs. Just pulls tips. Het it floor tilled heavy and get a full brace string on it and let it sweat feeling that string on for a good while. Watch for changes to limbs under that stress. It will tell a bunch about each limb.
Shawn
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The important aspect of this is that you're realizing why things aren't turning out as planned. That means you're learning. In my eyes tillering is the hardest part of bow building. I've only made about 25 bows myself so I'm not speaking from much experience. The one thing that really helped me was what I call my approach to tiller. If I can keep both limbs in unison as I remove wood from the belly as the limbs begin to bend my tillering goes so much smoother. Much less corrections to make as my bend begins to take shape. Then I discovered Eric's tillering gizmo and that told me what my inexperienced eye wasn't seeing.
It takes time and alot of patience. Try and always think a few steps ahead and you'll solve some issues before they even arise. Keep at it and you may surprise yourself just how much you have learned.
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That's the long string lesson. Now that you got that out of the way, you'll be fine. You can still use the long string, just keep those things in mind. The limbs bend a little more in the outer portion with a short string. No need to put a scale on it until after its braced. Only use the long string until the limbs bend far enough to get a low brace.
Once the limbs move a couple inches on the floor, I prefer the long string over floor tillering. With the long string on the tree, I pull it from where my string hand will be and watch both limbs work together, and watch the hook on the string. It will drift toward the stronger acting limb. This gives me a good early start on dynamic limb balance. By the time I get it braced, it's largely balanced to my holds. Like PaSteve said, getting the limbs working in unison early, and keeping them in unison as tillering proceeds means less backtracking, or playing catch up, or fear of missing target weight.
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Getting a good floor tiller feel also usually tells you, limbs are working and if they are not in alignment "i can now get this bow on form or caul and get it straight without burning it up with a heat gun or steaming a bow that's not ready". Then you can use the long string for a quick check if you must.
Since I make bows to hunt with mainly I will decide which will be upper and lower before I start. That being said " I will keep bottom limb stiff (heavy throughout tiller)". If your not doing this maybe coming in even is a good idea?
HH~
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I decide top and bottom limb early too, it's one of the first things I do, during initial layout of the front profile. But I don't want the bottom limb stiffer or heavier than the top. I want their strengths balanced, relative to my shooting fulcrums. I can do it early on the tree but not with floor tillering. I don't concern myself with positive, even, or negative tiller profiles during construction, just balance.
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I see long string as the next step from floor tillering, making sure both limbs are bending evenly but in the case of long string, evenly and together. When the tips have traveled 6" or so on the long string and the weight isn't too high it is time to brace. At brace the tips are 6" or less from the back of the bow and at brace you can see where if any adjustments are needed, either for string alignment or actually having the limbs bending evenly. If the limbs are lined up and bending evenly then basically it's getting the weight down to the desired weight with just slight adjustment as you head for full draw.
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If doing a bow for split finger only I would think that too. I shelf my hunt bows so with shelf being 1"-1.5" above center best arrow flight occurs with a positive tiller. So. . . . if you end up even tiller then I'm going back and scraping top or catching backwards. Big no no for me when I'm close to weight. I also on occasion will shot 3 under when animal is at point blank range. Positive tiller is a must if you do that. Grabbing all that bottom limb on a selfbow is hard on it. Balance is done when I get bow in my hand and start short drawing it. Have bow in a tiller tree can never tell you how in balances in hand i have found. Timing limb movement yes. Balance not so much.
Once in a while you'll have a bow that looks even tiller at brace but at full draw it is heavy one way or other. This is where I find Tiller Tree can really tell you what wood is doing under stress. But thats not on long string.
Just my experiences.
Shawn~
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For years, I've used the long string. Like PatB I use it as the natural progression from floor tillering.
My long string is about 1.5 inches longer than the stave I am tillering. Length of string is not all that crucial for me but weight reduction and good bending is.
I long string tiller out to 10 inches of string travel (not limb movement) ...string travel.
I look for good limb bending. I also look for bow weight plus 5 pounds.
This puts the stave at 10-15 pounds over final daw weight. Perfect for stringing with the short string.
I used to break a lot of bows at the first stringing because they were too heavy. This method solved that problem for me.
Whenever, I post this I usually have to be in the mood for a war. LOL. :)
Just keep in mind I've built hundreds of bows while using this method.
Those of you that can go from floor to first stringing...more power to you. But I build a lot of whitewood bows too...not just osage ...and this help me gauge a whitewood stave's readiness to be strung.
Jawge
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George, I've always used tip movement to judge when I can go to brace from long string because with 6" of long string tip movement tells me that I've bent the limbs enough to know I can go to low brace which is usually at about 3" to 4".
There is more than one way to skin a cat. There is a lot of experience amongst our community, not just in the amount of bows built but the years doing it and from seeing all the successful bows built over the years there are many roads to get to proper tiller. I like to keep that road as short as I can without skipping any of the steps along the way.
With a selfbow the only place to see proper tiller is at full draw. With the possible irregularities in a selfbow anywhere else along the path to full draw is merely an educated guess. IMO
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I don't want to argue about this, I really don't. I just want folks to understand that a tillering tree can be set up so that every bow will come off of it dynamically balanced in our hands at full draw, the first time we draw it. Mine is. And every bow does. I NEVER have to make a limb strength adjustment when I begin drawing a bow by hand, even when the limbs are quite different looking to begin with. I would view it that I have failed at my tillering job if that ever happened. I work towards balance in my hands at full draw from the moment I begin flexing the limbs. I'm 100% positive it's going to balance just right the first time I draw it. Dynamic balance is created by timing limb movement from our fulcrum positions on the tree.
"Once in a while you'll have a bow that looks even tiller at brace but at full draw it is heavy one way or other."
Not me. The way I do it, I never have a bow at full draw that is heavy one way or the other... not on the tillering tree, and not in my hand. The handle area never tips in the hand because one limb is too strong, because I make sure they're equal strength relative to my holds before it ever gets to full draw. To me, that balance of strength relative to my holds is every bit as important a part of the tillering process as any other part. But that's just how I do it. I understand folks have their own preferred methods, and that's cool too. What am I doin? I gotta stay out of these threads from now on ::)
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Nah stay in dances, it's good getting multipul viewpoints and styles. As a beginner I want to try different methods people use and see what I like best and what works for me. I can't just assume one person is right with out trying them all
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Your method works, PatB. You've used it for years. That's great.
I try to always say that I do what works for me.
Jawge
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That's it, George. What works best for each.
Squirrel, how do you justify or rectify the difference between the static hold of the tiller tree and the flexible hold of the hand?
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Hey, I learned a lot from this already. Getting people to post their methods and their reasonings only help people like me who are trying to get a deeper understanding of how to do things. options are always a great thing to know and to be able to use. I will be hunting with this bow if all turns out well, I shoot split finger and am hoping for a bow around 42lbs. it already had the tips "reflexed" some and is 66" T to T. I have more confidence in my floot tillering on this bow and am ready to cut notches to do a short brace. I have decided to do a short brace because of the tips being reflexed already. I know that I also plan to take another 1/16th" off each side of the limbs to the tips to help some with the physical weight. The last ten inches or so of the limbs are still rather thick but can be thinned as well after I check to see what the bow weight is at low brace. I am trying to be flexable in a good way as I tackle this next step. I have made a gizmo but have used it incorrectly until reading the how to use a gizmo post here. For me, all imput is welcome as things are often seen differently from what I see. People that are successful at something tend to gravitate towards what works for them. Thanks, Jerry
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I am also wanting my tips to be working tips, I guess. don't know the pros and cons
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Most of my bows have rigid tips for the last 6" or so. Trying to get them to work all the way to the tip can lead to whip tiller. If you leave the last 6" about 1/2" thick you can reduce the width to 3/8" or less, reducing the physical weight without losing the strength. You may even be able to reduce that thickness some too.
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Great info, Folks, we newbies need all the input we can get on what works so we can decide what works for each of us without reinventing the bow(wheel). Also, the input helps us decide what and how to ask questions. Everybody stay in loop, please! We would miss you!
Hawkdancer
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thanks for the infor on the tips. I managed a very tight long string and am mostly happy with how it looks. am still a little stiff on the right side. At this point, I am just trying to get good balance in the limbs and then begin working down on the weight. My draw is about 26 1/2" or so. I am taking pics but it may be a while before we are able to put them in. I am now making myself sit down and let it sit for a while so that I don't get in a hurry again. But, seeing it bend with a string on it is crazy awesome. Makes me feel a little like Dr Frankenstein. Still a long ways to go but it no longer is just a stave. I will use a shorter string next time to get a better view of the tiller.
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Tradslinger, us guys that have been doing this a while like to sense the excitement of new guys like yourself. At least I know I do. I dreamed many nights of various bows flexing on the tillering tree and I'd wake up all excited with new ideas or inspiration, head to the shop at 3 am to bend one before work. Some of that has waned, but I still stand there in awe of a fully drawn quivering selfbow on the tree. Love it! This is a cool thing we're doin'.
Pat, I think I know what you're getting at, and I doubt there's a way for us to replicate the exact physical structure and intricacies of the human hand. It's complex. But I also don't feel we should use that as an excuse to not try to improve our methods to get nearer that, or to hold too tight to conventional wisdom. I'm always, always open to suggestions on how to make a better bow in a more straightforward fashion. My means and methods are in a constant state of scrutiny and flux, and will continue to be.
Currently I have the cradle of my tree made so it can either be used to hold the bow 'static' if you will, so it can't move unless the balance is terrible, by supporting it near the top and bottom of the handle. Good balance/timing can be achieved this way(or with the bow clamped solidly) if the string is pulled from where our hand will pull it and the strength of the limbs is adjusted so the hook comes perfectly straight down perpendicular to the handle, we just won't know exactly where the dynamic balance point is... which led me to alter my tree so that....
A bow can also be supported at a single point anywhere in the handle area, allowing it to tilt with the slightest imbalance. Pulled from the string hand fulcrum point, this method will reveal where the balance point is in the drawn bow, and allow it to be moved where we want it to suit us, within reason, by adjusting the strength of one limb or the other. I think folks should try this, it can be an eye opener.
I have other odd shaped inserts I can use for pivoting or varying support higher or lower, but I rarely use them. Hey, how about a sandbag, or foam or gel pad? I could put something like that on there too, and I may just for the heck of it, but I don't think it would tell me anything different than that single movable pivot point.
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For me, the cool factor is very high in all of this. I do have Cherokee and Chickasaw blood in me but my grandparents and great grandparents didn't say a lot about it. had to do with owning land and working. Anyways, to see what was once a piece of a tree or cane turned into a bow and an arrow is amazing. So many things were lost and some recovered but these people didn't just survive, they thrived on what what available to them. I have gone the guantlet of compounds, etc like many have done but keep coming back to the simple stick and string. Just wish I had done this 50 years ago. got a lot to learn and a short time to do it LOL. And I can't wait to let loose the first arrow out of this bow!
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Dances, is there anyway you could post a photo of your tillering tree and insert? I think that could be part of my problem, along with some other issues on my last bow that blew up. My 4” flat handle sits flat across a 3 1/2” 2x4 with the hook centered under the center of the handle, not centered the same as when the bow is in the hand. Usually when I get to tillered to about 26” I have my wife take photos of it drawn in my hand, and finish out tillering to 28” from the photos. I did not do that on the bow that blew up. Looking back at photos, at 25” on the tree it had a more circular tiller than it showed at 28” drawn in my hand. It definitely shifted to more of an elliptical tiller in my hand. Maybe I can incorporate your method to improve mine.
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Long string to short... I’ve been mostly making longbows and never user floor bending more than quick testing. I’m relying on long string, just long enough from tip to tip, to monitor proper limb bending. When the tips bend enough to reach reasonable brace height, close to my fistmele, I svitch to short string. After this the tillering proceeds pretty quickly to desired result. Naturally, in the early beginning, this cost some staves because of I went too far with long string resulting too light bow.
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I have a similar set up to Dances. It works :)
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I think the one Dances with squirrels uses is similar to the one Del the Cat has. You can see it in his videos on YouTube, I've round them very usefull.
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I saw once how Del's are able to pivot. Mine is made different but acts like that. I don't know how his is set up down below. Mine has pulleys on a shaft that can be set or moved to wherever the string hand will be. I'll try to get some pictures posted.
Bentstick, I doubt that's the reason your bow broke. Imbalance, or shooting a bow differently by hand than it was tillered on the tree is more likely to cause set in a limb than break it. I'm guessing something else was probably the cause.
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Dances, I agree that was not the reason for my failure. That’s just the 1st bow I documented with a few photos along the way to where I could go back to look at after completing. I’m trying to fine tune my tillering tree and I knew I already wanted to adjust the point my hook lined up on the string, just not sure how I wanted to do it.