Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Fox on March 16, 2021, 09:50:16 pm
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okay, decide to make a new thread now that I know what I'm planning on doing with this bow thanks to Bownarra, and Timbo, and a few others.
58" long 1 3/4" wide tapers to 1 1/2" 12" out from fades. I'm aiming for 50@26 but will be happy with wherever it starts shooting good, so long as it's hunting weight. I took the advice from the few on my other thread and made it semi bend thru the handle.
braced.
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40# @15" I think the tillers pretty close at the moment? It's a little funky cause the left limb has more reflex the right. as you can see in unbraced pick.
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Unbraced.
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Oh and also there's a small amount of deflex at the fades of both limbs, not sure if you can see that in pics.
So my questions are..... how's the tiller? I can't tell if the handles bending... I think it is a little should it bend more? It's 1/2" thick right now. Also the MC% on the belly wood is under 6% I believe, is this too dry? should I sprits the back with water?? and lastly when should I sinew it?
sorry so many questions!!! im just liking the way this ones looking and dont want to miss anything! thanks! :)
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Fox,, its hard for me to tell in photos,, so I am hesitant to comment, but seems you could get the mids and outers bending a bit more,, that being said,, since you gonna sinew back, you gonna have to re tiller when you see how it reacts on the bow,,
I would sinew back now,, I wouldnt get carried away trying to get alot of reflex,, on your first bow, but if you gently heated on the tiller board backwards so its got a little reflex,, that would be good,, I have strung bows backwards to sinew, and it works but it can crack a bow if too aggressive,, so I suggest a gentle reflex to start,, and with 4 layers of sinew you will hold some reflex,,
ok thats tricky cause every one has a different concept of one layer,, so weigh out your sinew and put about 1000 grains,,,,thats a good happy medium,, like I said there are lots of ways to approach it,, and lots of ways work,, I like the way Laubin describes his method in his book,,but just start and you will find your own way that works that will be a combination of several concepts,,
Marc suggest lightly sanding ,, so do that on the back, I am old school and wash the back and rough it up, but I think either is ok for hickory,, Jim Hamm taught me,, so I still do like he told me,,he would heat to bend using oil,, so washing it was necessary,,
there are lots of ways to do it,, just go with the general consensis,, and youll be ok,, its a forgiving medium,
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you wont be able to tell if handle is bending till you get close to full draw,,
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I like that profile! It should be a sweet bow.
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Thanks Timbo I’m excited with how it’s going!
Thanks so much for the great reply brad :)
I’m hesitant to heat it again because I heat out a lateral twist that I wouldn’t want to come back....I’ve heard of sinewing it and then putting like a 25# weight on the Handle with the tips suspended on chairs or something... would that work for adding some reflex ? Or is heating necessary?
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yes that would work,,make sure you make notes so you can modify your process as needed,,
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Okay thanks brad :)
I’m sure I’ll be back with more questions ;D
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thats ok, I used to drive people crazy asking so many questions,,
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Left side needs to bend more in the mid to outer limb and right side is the same but more outer
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To me it looks like an almost hinge starting midlimb on the right side just above where the next row of siding
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If you put 25 lbs of weight I think you’ll get a lot of reflex. I get 2” with just the bow only between two tall chairs. I’d try more like 5-10 but that’s just gut feeling. Just depends how radical you want the reflex.
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Okay thanks guys.... yeah Russell I definitely see that.... but remember this has a slight r/d profile with that left limb having more reflex..... Allyn I think I might see what your talking about ? Like right where the reflex starts on the right limb ?
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okay, more questions...
tillered it a little more today, just wanted to make sure it's even before I sinew it cause otherwise wouldn't the reflex be uneven?
anyway, I think it's about where I want it for now. it's at 40#@20". I shot it a bit and it's already super-fast!... it has taken maybe 1/4" set.
Okay... and now the string alignment, It's pretty close to center shot because of the string being slightly off to one side. it shoots great and feels good, do I need to make the string right in the middle of the handle? or is it all good that it's off to one side a bit?
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Should I wash the sinew with soap ???
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Yep dawn dish soap until it’s squeaky.
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Yep dawn dish soap until it’s squeaky.
:OK
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Looking forward to seeing what you get. This is your first sinew run?
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Looking forward to seeing what you get. This is your first sinew run?
So am I! Yep this is my first sinew bow attempt
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Okay... Sinew processed, that's about 1,100 grains of sinew with the help of some friends :)... is that small enough? or do the fibers need to be smaller? Hoping that's enough. still need to wash the bow and the sinew.
I'm trying to decide what glue to use... I made some hide glue from a dog chew and dried it. I'm not sure if it's good or not though.. trying to decide whether to use the stuff I have from 3 rivers, Knox, or the stuff I made, hm.... what do you all think?
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i think use the knox,, try a experiemental bow with the stuff you made,, I made some glue from rawhide, and it worked well, I put on a kids bow to see how it was gonna work, it was fine, but for your first bow go with something proven,,,,
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Okay, thanks brad.
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Hey nice to see your sinew job.
Just a tip: If you think, you have enough sinewwraps - prepare some more :-).
It‘s better you have some more, than you run out of it on the last 2 inches and the glue is ready and so on...
Greetz
Cord
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When you say sinewwraps... do you mean processed sinew fibers?
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Okay when I wash the bow with boiling water and dawn dish soap... isn’t it going to check like crazy in the 20% humidity weather?
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no
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Yes I mean sinew ready to put on the bow.
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okay... I sinewed it today... phew... that was difficult (lol)
so I have no clue if I did anything remotely corect.... so I only put on two layers... which was about 900 grains, I still have 200 grains left of sinew... was I just putting it on really thick or something? cause the bowyers bible says to put maybe 3-4 layers... I have no clue how this will turn out or if i need to add another layer?? Is it supposed to look so freaking messy? (lol)
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(first layer)
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I just used the last 200 grains of sinew and ran one line down the center of the bow... Im worried though because I noticed a few spots on the edges pulled up from the bow a little bit, like what happens if you mess up a rawhide backing.... ugh!.. ill see what it looks like in the morning and post pics..
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Hmm, it looks pretty good from the pictures but I am wondering about your saying “it’s pulling up from the edges.” Did you size the back and edges well with thinned glue first? That is, did many layers of thin glue to build a base?
I have found that I can go back and rework areas like that by re-softening with more warm glue and possibly applying small pieces of sinew...sorta tuck things in, if you catch me. One thing I like to do is put down a strip of wax paper on the bench top when I sinew as it catches glue but I can also lay out the strips and start to coat them and let them start gelling up, then apply. I find the more bows I do the more I realize I can work deliberately and not be in such a rush. I imagine that would perhaps be different if I lived in a more arid climate. But it’s not a problem in the East, I’d say.
I always enjoy watching the initial cure. I bet it will turn out well.
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are you going to wrap with bike tubes or something to squeeze and flatten the sinew?
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Thanks Parnell. I put some warm glue and sinew in the spots that seemed to be pulling up, put and put a some weight on the handle for reflex. It looks much better this morning. I don’t see where was pulling up any more. I did size the back but I think I used maybe slightly too thick glue... and maybe too much? Also on the first layer I dipped the dry sinew into the glue but the sinew didn’t seem plump enough. The second coat I soaked before I dipped in glue.
Gills I am not going to wrap this one... do you recommend wrapping them? Maybe I’ll try doing that next time...
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How long does it take to start taking reflex ?
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I think putting a layer of glue on the edges is a good idea,,it wont hurt anything,,
its looking good,,a week or two to start pulling reflex depending on your climate, I think you said it was dry there,,
maybe four weeks ,, be sure and coat the belly with paint or glue, so it does not check to bad,,
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I would hang a 25 weight from handle and put the tips on two chairs.. and let it dry... gut
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yep, it's really dry here in the house 20% or so.... until summer then it gets nasty and humid... right now I have the bow in the shop suspended from tips with maybe 10# on it. I also put a fan blowing on it. So I can tiller in 3-4 weeks?
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I would hang a 25 weight from handle and put the tips on two chairs.. and let it dry... gut
gut ...Ill add some water to the jug then...
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it really depends on how its drying, with a fan, you should be able to start in a few weeks,, usually it will stop pulling reflex when its dry, that might not be totally cured and might pick up a bit of weight, but I have never hurt one tillering after a few weeks,,
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I’m not sure I’d blow the fan on it this early and if so not 24 hrs a day. I think you’ll form a hard shell on the glue locking in moisture and slow the curing overall. Just my thinking other opinions may vary. I’ve not fanned a bow but I was taught not to take them outside for a week. They cure pretty fast outside. That I know for sure even when it’s 55 degrees.
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Okay. it rained and got super humid in the shop... in the house now and I took the fan off it for now. (trying to keep the dogs off it will be a challenge) ;D :fp (lol)
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yes dont let the dogs eat it,, its bad for them,, :)
ok but really,, congrats on getting it started,,a great accomplishment so far,, and fun learning process,,
fan or no fan it gonna be ok,, its hard to explain what they feel like when not dry enough to tiller,, but even in Laubins book which you should get, he says he starts after a couple of weeks, and he puts quite a bit of sinew on,,,,says he can tell no difference in waiting longer,,
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Thanks for all the help brad :)
I’m enjoying watching it dry... quite satisfying....
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Looks great, Fox. So did you end up doing two layers of sinew?
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I love watching the sinew dry, its like watching someone else do all the work,, ;D send some pics now it drying
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Thanks, WB! sorta 2 layers... I did 2 full layers and one strip down the middle so more like 2 1/3d :)
Yeah, brad and I thought I felt that way just watching a stave dry..... but now only a few weeks and it's a better bow than before!
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looking good
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Nice!
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Fox Id let it slow dry .. the beauty of sinew is when it slow cures with hide glue it gets the full effect you seek... I wouldn't IMO try to fast cure it.. gut
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Sinew can be quick dried if you put it on in 1mm thick layers, 2 weeks drying per layer. Unfortuntely the drying time goes up exponentially if you apply it in thicker layers.
1mm - 2 weeks , 2mm - 4 weeks, 3mm - 9 weeks, 4mm - 16 weeks, 5mm 25 weeks.
Forced drying will result in weaker glue bonds. It will however likely still be plenty strong enough though so don't worry.
Your edges liftinf is from drying too quickly.
Ideally once you are finished put the bow upside down in a cool, draft free place. This is to lose the intial moisture slowly. Once the bow has lost some water it can slowly be exposed to higher temps and some air flow.
Don't expect the sinew itself to 'pull in' loads of reflex.
To get the reflex you need to either do as you have done or reverse brace it. After a few days you can add weight or tighten the sting to increase the reflex.
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Yeah gut it’s just inside with some weight on it... 8 pounds right now... I took the fan off after seeing the edges lift.... it’s all good now I think. Bownarra, I think it’s around 1-2 mm thick right now (after drying for 4 days) it’s kinda hard to measure though... so that would mean let it dry for 3 ish weeks ? I’m not worried about time too much I can be patient if needed ;D
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It’s taken around 1.5” reflex so far ..
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The left limb has taken a lot more reflex than the right I guess because it had natural reflex there before ::)
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Okay, another update! and some more questions. so one limb has 2 1/4" reflex and the other 3"... not too worried about that, it will just make the tiller look funky correct? but I am a little worried about these ends of sinew and these places that aren't quite right seeming... should I do anything about this? I'm thinking ill start cleaning the bow up a bit today or tomorrow, it will be 2 weeks on Tuesday, ill probably wait another week before tillering though, what do you think?
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ok you gonna get lots of variation on how to address that, lifts,,
I would sinew wrap there,, tiller throught the wrap and then wrap again when done tillering,,those spots seem like the sinew was too stiff when you put it on,, like didnt soak in water or didnt let it get soft enough in the warm glue,,
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Okay so wrap anywhere that had a little lift like that? and when tillering just scrape over the sinew that will be on the belly side?
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yes and re apply if you need to,, may not need too,,
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just do a fill in coarse. on those spot.. maybe sand it down and do fill in... . looks like just a couple of spots..you shouldnt have to wait a full two weeks on the fill in.. look good.. I like to hang the 25lb weight for a good month or two here... Ga in basement where temp stays around 67 at all times... slow dry... last cedar bow pulled close to 3 to 4 inch of reflex that way.. still holds 1 1/2 after till and shoot in.. snappy bow...
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How’s it lookin Fox? (-P
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I was going to start tillering yesterday but I am heading to the mountains for a few days so I figured I’ll wait another week.... I did clean it up a bit though... it’s pulled about 2.5” of reflex although it’s super uneven one limb has way more.... that’s fine though I think :)
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yes just tiller it so it pulls even at full draw,,it will be fine,, the braced profile might not look even,, thats ok,,
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Yes so this is something I’ve wondered about.. so when tillering a bow with uneven reflex, so at full draw do you want the limbs to “look” like there bending the same distance? Or do you want the limb with more reflex to look like it’s bending less the the other limb?
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I make it look like its bending about the same distance,, I am shooting the bow as I tiller so that has more to do with the final tiller than the "look" of it,, but I find if it looks about even at full draw I can adjust the tiller from there by shooting it,,if you getting great arrow flight, and feel the bow is shooting well,, then your tiller is ok,, on a bow like that sometimes the braced profile may not look conventional,, just orientate the bow with the string laying to the arrow side,,that will dictate your top limb,,I like haveing the reflexed limb on the top,, some do not, but that usually works best for me,,
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Okay started tillering today! I think it's going well, pretty tricky though...It's got a little under 1.5" of reflex right now and is tillered out to 45 @ 20" and started out with somewhere around 1 1/2" to 1 3/4" reflex. :)
Finally some sunny days! flowers are out and leaves are on the black haws! love this time of year!
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so that would be 50 at 22 and 55 at 25 60 at 26,,,
what are you aiming for,,
if you pull it to 26 and even the tiller after it stablizes you will get at least 55@ 26
I think the tiller is looking good,, I forget how long the bow is,, ok went back and looked its 58,,
so I think you ok out to 28 if you want,, 26 wouldl be a good erring on the side of not pushing the limit,, and will still shoot hard,,but up to you, you the boss of your bow,, ;D
looking goo
also the further you pull it, the more likely some of the reflex will pull out,, and that gonna mess with your tiller,, it will kind of a trade off,,in draw length, verses the bow holding the profile,, sometimes I keep drawing it out till i sense the profile is changing, and then I stop there,, but I have been more agressive and drawn it out too far,,, and lost some reflex, but the longer draw compensated a bit and still had good performance,, its a trade off,, today my opinion is to stop before you pull out the reflex,,
I think you could shoot it at 26 now,, but if it blows, I didnt say that,, ;D
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More bend in the inner right? or is there a wiggle?
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Okay great.... I only draw to 26 anyway :) (not sure why I’m 6’) ;D
I’ll Probly tiller out another 5 pounds so I hit somewhere around 55@26 at 60 my form starts to fall apart :)
Tradecraft... not much character in right limb, I see a spot that could maybe use a few scrapes at like mid right, but the inner (next to fades?) Are bending a good bit... thanks for the input :) and
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I meant it might be bending slightly more there.
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I meant it might be bending slightly more there.
Oh got it (lol) (lol)
I would definitely agree with that! I’ll work on that ! :OK
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im 6 ft draw 25 or 26 27 depending on bow,,,, I face forward so my draw is shorter,, I can shoot longer draw or shorter too,but thats my comfort zone,, do what gets you good arrow flight and accuracy,, of course on really short bows I draw less,, and can shoot 30 inch draw but have to stand sideways and dont like it,
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if right limb is upper.. appears slightly longer I think you need to move the bow on tree to left some .. I might be wrong... gut
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Looking good. Always tough to tell from static pictures. At first I wondered if the outer thirds looked stiff but I see that they are moving. Looking forward to see how you will finish it. Looks like a nice place you’ve got there.
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the outer thirds are a bit reflexed, so think they look little stiff I think thats good,, cause if they settle a bit you still ok,, might shift a bit at full draw and couple hundred shots,
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if right limb is upper.. appears slightly longer I think you need to move the bow on tree to left some .. I might be wrong... gut
Gut it is symmetrical design... but right limb is a little bit weaker then left and right limb also will be bottom because the string lays that way on the handle. Im going to go and scrape on the other limb a bit :OK
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Thanks Parnell :) yes outer thirds do look stiff but as brad said they are reflexed so Im thinking there good too :)
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Well starting to shoot good! And I’m liking the way it feels... worked on the handle a bit too... sorry didn’t get pics.... but now headed back to town for a few days and will be back to work on it this weekend :)
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hey congrats on shootin good,, ;D
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Yes so this is something I’ve wondered about.. so when tillering a bow with uneven reflex, so at full draw do you want the limbs to “look” like there bending the same distance? Or do you want the limb with more reflex to look like it’s bending less the the other limb?
No the limbs must be strained an equal amount. If not you won't get equal return speed from each limb resulting in handshock.
The unbraced, braced and full draw profiles should represent the 'imbalances' in limb profile.
This is why a lot of people heat treat and correct side profile at the same time. A bow where the tips sit even is way easier to tiller than an uneven bow.
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Well crap I noticed the majority of the top limb everywhere except right out of fades and towards the tip has tiny chrysalis :-\
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on belly or back,, if its back,, it is just the glue
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It’s belly.... both limbs are lined with little ones for almost the whole limb
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wow thats crazy, I never would have seen that coming,,I would like to blame the wood, I think you did good on the tiller,,
well sorry bout that,, it was looking great,
ive only done that to hickory one time, I made a bow and the backing was too thick, a hickory backing on hickory,,
maybe try osage next time, its pretty durable with a sinew back,, I really dont know,,what to think,,
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I didn’t expect that either... oh well I did learn how to sinew a bow atleast.... all my hickory bows have Chrysalid except one.... I must be doin something wrong with the stuff :-\
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possibly overstraining it in the early stages of getting it to bend even,, I dont know,,
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Yeah possibly.... any estimates on how long it could last ?
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if the tiller is not shifting..keep shooting
a friend of mine had an osage bow that had fretts on belly , he shot it several years,,but it did fail, it pulled up a big splinter and it is retired now,, he thinks he overstrained it in early stages of tiller,,
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Alrighty
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never had a hickory chrysall... you got to get them below 13%.. 12 is top... no lower than 9... very important.. hickory will basically till itself when moisture is above 13... causing you to over strain the bow and not even know it.. my thoughts are your bow soaked up too much moisture during the sinew process and you didn't give it enough time to dry to the above %..your sinew may have appeared dry but the wood wasn't.. sinew and hickory are like oil and water down south.. I killed a sinew hickory bow basically the same way you have except it never made it off the tree .. lesson learned and it was basically because the wood wasn't dry enough.. I'd get that sinew back when it fails.. and it will eventually... if you try that combo again.. bring it inside to dry and give it a minimum of 3 months... sorry to hear that buddy.. I know you put the work in it...as for how long it might last my guess would be around 200 shots .. it will start to take set and you know she is on the way out.. gut
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I think it will be very hard to tell how long the bow will last without actually seeing it. I have had bows with serious frets last a long time, they just didn't shoot as well as my others and they eventually got shelved.
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It's a matter of knowing your wood species making bows.+1 on what gut stated.Short cuts making bows many times lead to failures with some types of woods.The most tolerant of impatience/short cuts/bad tiller etc. is osage.
Other woods can perform and be just as good as osage and even better if given the right design/procedure and patience.
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never had a hickory chrysall... you got to get them below 13%.. 12 is top... no lower than 9... very important.. hickory will basically till itself when moisture is above 13... causing you to over strain the bow and not even know it.. my thoughts are your bow soaked up too much moisture during the sinew process and you didn't give it enough time to dry to the above %..your sinew may have appeared dry but the wood wasn't.. sinew and hickory are like oil and water down south.. I killed a sinew hickory bow basically the same way you have except it never made it off the tree .. lesson learned and it was basically because the wood wasn't dry enough.. I'd get that sinew back when it fails.. and it will eventually... if you try that combo again.. bring it inside to dry and give it a minimum of 3 months... sorry to hear that buddy.. I know you put the work in it...as for how long it might last my guess would be around 200 shots .. it will start to take set and you know she is on the way out.. gut
Thanks for the input gut.... although that would kinda suprise me if it was mc.... its still in the 20% humidity here, and my MC meater was reading that it was below 7% so I was a little worried that id't be too dry! haha well I coulda been wrong then cause I didn't think I overstrained it so maybe my mc is wrong? ??? but yeah most of my hickory has chrysalled, although the ones that did I know it was my fault, and the ones that didn't I knew I did right and they are shooting great... the ones that chrysalled ...not so much ;)
Yeah, bow Ed I was hoping I could get the sinew to keep this one together, apparently not though :-\. I did feel like I was patient as it took me more than a week to tiller cause I wanted to nail it... apparently, I went wrong somewhere though. Yes osage seems to be pretty awesome stuff, although its hard to come by here, and the last to osage bows have been sub-par pieces one even rawhide backed and it still blew, and the other I think I just made a really stupid mistake of bracing too soon :fp. just dug out a fairly nice piece that I have to make a bow for someone else out of... but reailized I might be able to belly split something for me ;D.....
anyway thanks for all the help guys, sorry for the long ramble ;D
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our humidity is 40% today... I highly doubt I could get hickory below 9% even leaving it inside for a year..lol.... I would question your meter ... I find that hard to believe after sinewing and less than 3 weeks it is below 7%.. but I don't know because I basically live in a sauna...gut
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I'll bite here......In olden times native americans hung sinewed bows upside down high at least 10' above the fire in their teepee.I'm sure they had other pieces of wood partially made for a bow there.Bundled arrow shafts too.Very insightful way of curing and bug proofing their sinewed bows.I've never done that in my teepee but should try it sometime.
You did everything properly before sinewing.but thought you were a bit heavy before sinewing.That's ok though.You put on at least 1100 grains of sinew on 58" length of bow.I'm sure it was at least 1/8" to 3/16" thick dried thickness.In less than 3 weeks you were shooting it.
To me that's just not enough time to cure.Thickness of that much will be gaining poundage a year later yet.Not really drying in that sense but curing forming bonds.To me a minimum of 3 months wait of curing before bending.
I find that for hickory because it likes a heat treatment so well the same amount of reflex can be gotten or from an epoxied laminated bow with bamboo without near the wait and it's dry.You put out a good effort all prior to the waiting part.
You are a good proponent of these natural material bows.Things will come around for you.
Many will disagree but I wait 10 days after heat treating a bow before bending.Stiffer sections like the tips heated or corrected not so.