Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Muzzleloaders => Topic started by: Mesophilic on May 19, 2021, 07:13:50 pm
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Guy told me at the range not to use gun oil on a muzzle loader. He said that the petro chemical based oils react with black powder to form some nasty gunk.
Is there any truth to this?
What oils would you guys recommend for rust prevention?
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Ox-yoke, uncle Ben's, whale oil, if you can find it, bear grease, I think Ballistol is non petrol based, clean a lot! (lol) >:D Extra hot water and plain old dish detergent to clean, (lol) >:D never use hot water and dish soap, any soap and water will clean it, just make sure you dry up well. I use the uncle ben's stuff to seal. They are up in Colorado, the contact info is where I ain't right now, will post it later. If you are shooting and cleaning everyday I don't think it is a problem! There are almost as many opinions as there are black powder shooter! :-M. Once you get it clean, you should not have too many problems sealing down there in NM,
Hawkdancer
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It depends on what you shoot, black powder or a sub, the subs are more corrosive and may need more cleaning power.
You don't need hot water and soap for black powder, hot water will cause flash rusting in a barrel, no big deal because you are going to get it out with an oily patch but why cause it in the first place. Room temperature water dissolves black powder instantly without soap.
I think what you read was not to use petroleum based patch lubes as they may gunk up.
Nothing wrong with storing a gun with plain old oil swabbed in the bore, we always swab the bore out before we load a gun that has been stored. One of the long term gun storage lubes is called Rig which is plain old axle grease. One friend who had been a top completive B/P shooter for the last 40 years puts his guns up after running a patch soaked with 10W-40 motor oil down the bore.
Everyone has their own cleaning routine, I use water then dry out the bore, I give the bore a squirt of WD-40 to absorb any moisture I might have missed, then swab the bore dry again and run a patch soaked with Barricade down the bore. Barricade dries and leaves a film over the metal to prevent any air or moisture from making contact and causing rust. I run another Barricade patch down the bore a week or so after I clean just to make sure there is no red on the patch, so far since I switched to Barricade I have had "0" rust.
If you shot a sub like Pydrodex by all means use soap and water, this stuff is nasty in a bore.
Here is Pydrodex shooters bore after he failed to clean his rifle properly and put it up. This barrel was toast, I sent it off and had it rebored and rifled to a .54 from a .50.
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Thanks for the tips, guys.
Didn't know the BP subs were worse, but I've been shooting real BP since I hear pyrodex is hard to ignite in flintlocks.
The old Marine in my wants to put CLP on everything.
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I stupidly loaned out my Pedersoli double barrel 10 gauge to someone who used it with a black powder substitute and it came back with pitting.
I used to use hot water and dish soap, which I guarantee will take out EVERY possible bit of black powder residue ever created, but began using cold water when I became convinced that the thin film of rust was caused by the higher temp. After all, almost every chemical reaction is speeded up by higher temps. Now I am content with cold water and a drop of Dawn dish soap.
As for oils, I like to use deer tallow. Inside and out. For the bearing surfaces on my locks, I use beeswax. Also, when I fully disassemble my locks for cleaning, they are wiped dry and left in a warm oven until they are almost too hot to handle. Then they get wiped down and polished with a soft cotton cloth with beeswax melted into it.
There is no need to buy expensive or complicated compounds.
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Lots of uses for beeswax - you learn something new every day!
Hawkdancer
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So Eric, the true black powder you refer to is the charcoal-sulfur-saltpeter-rust stuff, correct?
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Yep, essential if you shoot a flintlock, best overall in all B/P guns but I realize that some people can't get it and have to shoot substitutes like Pydrodex or Triple 7.
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I thought that that stuff would be the easiest to get ahold of because the components aren't regulated as ammo. How corrosive is the real stuff? Flintlocks seem really appealing right now because they consume no regulated materials, but I may have to many hobbies as it is.
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Black Powder is listed as an explosive by the ATF, shipping it requires a hazmat fee, sellers are required to have a special storage area away from everything else. These requirements have changed who sells it drastically, before the regs every gun shop had it, now very few feel it is worth the hassle. It is easily bought online and shipped to you, you do have to pay the hazmat fee.
Prices for black have just about doubled during covid, short supply and big demand have kept most of the online sellers sold out. They expect to restock by the end of this month, hopefully they will. The run on black has been the same as the run on modern ammo.
You can buy 1# or up to 50# on line, the hazmat fee (about $25)is the same for 1# or 50# so it is best to get some friends together and buy a bigger lot, we usually buy 25# at a whack. Yu can mix granule size in an order, it comes in 1F to 4F with the 4F being the flintlock priming powder. It never goes bad so you can store it for 100 years in the dry and it will go off like you bought it yesterday. I keep 15# to 20# on hand, some of mine is from the 70s and shoots just fine.
Black powder is corrosive but easily cleaned up with just plain water, with the barrel dried and oiled properly you will never have a bit of corrosion problems from using it.
Shoot it an leave your barrel uncleaned for a month or so and your barrel will turn into a sewer pipe. That is why there are so many older BP guns out their with sewer pipe barrels, during the first BP craze in the 70s many people just didn't know B/P took special cleaning procedures and treated their guns like they had their modern guns.
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I see, so before I totally hijack this thread, :D what would it take to get set up with a flintlock kit, assuming I mix my own powder and trade for flint here?
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I added more info to my initial post.
You can't mix your own powder, well, you can but your results will be very inconsistent compared to what you buy. Accuracy and consistency go hand in hand. You can make your own flints but buying them is a better option for most folk. If you are a good knapper they are a piece of cake to make. I have found field find broken arrow heads work just fine.
I have made BP before as a kid, we made bombs and blew up everything out in the country. One of our devices blew up and killed my best friend, we were 13 at the time. Leave the manufacture to the professionals.
Kits, that this a complex issue, Kibler are the best and easiest to put together and still have a historically correct rifle, they aren't slap together kits and take some time and a little wood working and metal working skills to complete.
Traditions are slap together kits, screw stuff together and put a finish one the wood and metal and you are good to go. Traditions kits don't represent any style of riffle accurately but are good shooters and are great if you just want something to shoot.
There are tons of kit options from the Traditions type to precarve stocks and a pile of rough parts kits. The traditions may take 4 or 5 hours to complete, the rough parts kit may take 150 to 200 hours to complete depending on your skill level. Kiblers take 15 hours at the most.
Be forewarned this is an expensive hobby, a Kibler kit will set you back $1000 to start with, other wood options will run that up a bit. Traditions kits will be between $350 and $450.
Here is my Kibler southern mountain squirrel rifle in .32 cal, easy for me to put together but too hard for the guy I bought the kit from, second hand still in the box.
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There are a lot of videos on youtube about putting together Traditions kits, Kibler kits and parts kits.
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I see, thanks.
As a potter, I have some experience mixing chemicals precisely, but those aren't explosive.
How do you store that much powder safely, or is that what the back shed is for?
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You ever type up long answer and have it disappear before you post it? I just did, I don't type well so I will come back later to answer your question. Special storage areas are not required for individuals, only dealers.
I keep my BP in my shop, it won't explode if it catches fire, only burn up quickly, it comes in a plastic container like motor oil now. It has to be enclosed in a gun barrel or pipe bomb to go explode.
The stuff we buy comes in very precise granule sizes, the granules are also graphite coated to make them not stick together and clump up and also makes them slower to absorb moisture.
The designation may be 3FG which denotes the size (3F) and the graphite coating (G). Cannon powder is not graphite coated.
Most guns under.50 like 3F, but it can be shot in all guns, normally guns over .50 tend to like 2F, my 12 ga likes 1F. Every gun is different so you "work up a load" that shoots accurately with more or less powder, a looser or tighter ball and patch.
I have two rifles that have straight, not swamped (tapered and flared) barrels with square bottom rifling that will shoot anything I put down the barrel accurately.
If you do your part you can expect this kind of accuracy from a flintlock rifle. This is at 50 yards with my .54 flintlock deer rifle and iron sights, I do have a peep sight on the rifle so my 73 year old eyes can see the sights. The bull is 2 1/2", I snatched the trigger and hit left with the first shot then got dialed in.
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The mind goes first, I don't remember what is second! The stuff I referred to as Uncle Ben's is really Gene's Black Powder Gun Seasoning, they are out of Colorado.
Hawkdancer
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Here is the deal on gun seasoning, on modern steel there is no such a thing, cast iron or wrought iron are open pore and they can hold an oil build up, a cast iron skillet is an example.
The seasoning myth is alive and well and almost all newbies think they need to season their barrel.
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Here is the deal on gun seasoning, on modern steel there is no such a thing, cast iron or wrought iron are open pore and they can hold an oil build up, a cast iron skillet is an example.
The seasoning myth is alive and well and almost all newbies think they need to season their barrel.
BINGO!
The way I make the point is to tell them to go home and try to "season" a stainless steel pot.
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Mild pitting, especially if its even all the way down the bore is actually beneficial for muzzle loaders.
Tests run in the early 19th century and confirmed by testing in the early 20th century found that velocity and often accuracy was better from a lightly pitted bore than from a new well finished bore.
The tiny pits allowed bullet lubes to collect forming a sort of near microscopic semi liquid ball bearing unaffected by pressure, reducing friction. The more evenly pitted the better the results.
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Never use Ballistol unless you mix it with water. Mixed with water its the best cleansing agent for BP that I've found but without water added its worthless as a cleanser or preservative.
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Not so Mr Ghost, the testing you refer to(which I haven't heard of) would be with a wrought iron barrel which has porous steel, filling the pores with some kind of lube would be possible and have benefits like a seasoned skillet in that type of metal.
On modern steel barrels that are non porous pitting would have no beneficial effects where as a mirror bore would have a bunch of positive things going for it. Pitting holds crud that a mirror bore wouldn't. Pitting holds fowling shot to shot making wiping between shots more necessary. With a mirror bore you may never have to wipe between shots because each loading takes the fowling out of the bore.
You don't have to have pitting to have a rough, hard to load barrel, most rifling bits chatter a bit during the process and leave rough lands and grooves. This is why people lap or refresh their bores to get rid of any roughness because it has so many detrimental effects on shooting. You can lap a barrel or put a couple hundred shots through it to "break it in" or smooth out the roughness.
I have a rifle I put up with Rem-Oil in the bore, I came back 6 months later and found a red potato patch growing in the bore. 6" groups at 50 yards became the norm, bummer.
I decided to get as much of the pitting out of the bore as I could, it was ruin or fix the bore which ever came first. I put Soft Scrub kitchen cleanser on a piece of green Scotch bright pad and started scrubbing the bore. After about 100 strokes I could see metal on my cleaning patch and was sure I had ruined the bore, a quick check with my endoscope showed that I had rounded off the sides of the lands and removed almost all of the pitting although their was a small bit left near the breech. I followed up the scrubbing procedure with a patch soaked with JB Bore Paste polishing agent and 100 more strokes with my ramrod.
This is what I ended up with, a mirror bore except for a little freckling near the breech.
(https://i.imgur.com/qVhmE5T.jpg)
Then it was off to the range at 50 yards, I was expecting disaster. I pulled my first shot to the left then got down on it, my rifle never grouped this well brand even with the barrel new from Rice and definitely not with a pitted bore.
(https://i.imgur.com/Pyhk2qw.jpg)
I have since gone back with the JB bore paste and maliciously polished all my rifles bores as I have found a mirror bore is the best for shooting and the follow up cleaning.
I haunt the Muzzleloader Forum and the American longrifle site, everyone on these sites wants a polished bore, no one wants any pitting.
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Eric, where to find the endoscope/borescope for muzzleloaders? ToW, Gunworks? That is one item I don't have! Thanks,
Hawkdancer
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You can get one to fit your smart phone or PC for $8 off eBay. My first lasted at least 5 years and was crystal clear, it gave up the ghost so got another one that is not as clear but gets the job done. Just search eBay for endoscope.
Here is scope #2, it gives things a brown tone, that is not rust in the TC barrel.
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the testing you refer to(which I haven't heard of)
"Bosworth on the Rifle" 1846, and "Arms and the Man" article date uncertain (possibly 1915), found in NRA reprint years ago.
In recent years some makers of long range cartridge rifle barrels have taken to simulating the seasoned surface of their bores, at least in the grooves, to reduce friction and increase velocity.
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I suspect they are producing a better finished barrel instead infusing lube, Rice Barrel company claims no break-in is necessary with their barrels.
This is from the Rice Barrel website, I suspect Kibler's in house CNC barrels are much the same but I haven't seen one first hand. I do have a Kibler SMR in .32 with a Rice barrel with less than 10 shots through it (my 73 year old eyes can't see the sights). I will get out my endoscope and see if it is slick as Rice claims.
The sight thing is a shame, the rear on my Kibler is too far back and just a blur, I have to wait until I have cataract surgery somewhere down the road before I can accurately shoot the gun.
(https://i.imgur.com/zEynHXN.jpg)
I have a Lancaster I built with an older Rice Barrel that has a distinct tight spot in the barrel about halfway down.
From Rice;
BORE DIMENSION QUALITY CONTROL
After the rifling has been CUT, a carbide bore-sizing die is pulled through the barrel to insure bore dimension continuity and to eliminate any tight or loose spots inside the barrel. This critical procedure leaves the top of the lands smooth and polished, equaling the traditional lead lapping procedure.
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BORE DIMENSION QUALITY CONTROL
After the rifling has been CUT, a carbide bore-sizing die is pulled through the barrel to insure bore dimension continuity and to eliminate any tight or loose spots inside the barrel. This critical procedure leaves the top of the lands smooth and polished, equaling the traditional lead lapping procedure.
Sounds like a development of the "Ball Burnishing" method used on some Lithgow made Enfield rifles.
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I had a MK4, my dad bought it for me when I was 12, at they time they were stacked up like cord wood in the local hardware stores and cost $8 each. I didn't know about corrosive ammo at the time and didn't clean it properly, even with a pitted bore it was amazingly accurate.
I sold it for $20 forty years ago to a newbie deer hunter, I should have held on to it seeing what they for for today.
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I suspect that a greasy wax made from Whale Oil was used to lubricate lock works. It was commonly used for clocks.
While Sperm Whale oil is not available these days "Blackfish Oil" made from Pilot Whale blubber is still in use for delicate equipment exposed to deep sub zero cold. In fact it is in use by NASA to lube hinges of various deployable equipment on deep space probes and other space craft.
I once had a small tube of Whale Oil that had been made for use on wind instruments. I was surprised to find it burned with a beautiful clean white flame.
PS
Depending on how processed Whale oil can be thick as grease or thin as oil but in fact its actually a wax rather than an oil.
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Guy told me at the range not to use gun oil on a muzzle loader. He said that the petro chemical based oils react with black powder to form some nasty gunk.
Is there any truth to this?
What oils would you guys recommend for rust prevention?
I use neetsfoot oil.
Here is a link to an article I wrote on my blog on gun oils if you are interested.
https://woodsrunnersdiary.blogspot.com/2013/04/train-oil-sweet-oil-and-foot-oil-small.html (https://woodsrunnersdiary.blogspot.com/2013/04/train-oil-sweet-oil-and-foot-oil-small.html)
Regards, Keith.
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The guy told you wrong, for cleaning and lubing it is fine, I use a patch soaked with 10W30 motor oil in my bore between shooting sessions, I do clean it out of the barrel with several dry patches prior to shooting and use a natural oil for patch lube, like olive oil or my favorite, mink oil. I use RIG gun grease in the bore for long time storage.
If you use petroleum based lubes for your patches it will leave some hard black crud in the barrel over time that takes some elbow grease to get out. I think the early TC maxi lube was petroleum based, later they went to what they called "Natural lube". I have two tubes of the older maxi lube, I never liked it, don't know why I keep it.