Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Bill_in_TR on July 23, 2021, 05:11:49 pm
-
OK. I have not visited this board in a long time. I decided to finally try this bow building thing again after a few aborted attempts years ago. I hope to put in a better effort this time.
Over a year ago when this pandemic was cranking up my son called to tell me about an osage tree that was cut down near him. He asked if I was interested. I told him if he could get a fairly straight log at least six feet long I would like to have it.
Well he finally was able to get down to my house this week. He brought a log that is seven inches in diameter and about six and a half feet long. The log has been in his garage with the bark on for over a year. It was standing on one end leaning in the corner. There is no evidence of rot or insect activity. Just a couple of very very tiny cracks evident in the end. It has a very nice orange color with well defined growth rings. The center ring is maybe one half to three quarters of an inch off center.
So my questions are:
1. Did I stumble into something that I can try to make a couple of bows with?
2. Is a seven inch diameter adequate?
3. Has it been handled adequately so far?
4. How should I proceed from here?
-
Sounds like a good opportunity to me. Osage is very rot resistant so it’s likely still viable even if the ends weren’t sealed. I haven’t split enough wood to know how much you could get out of it but if it’s straight then maybe up to 4 staves? Post some pictures if you can as that will help with splitting recommendations. It’ll dry faster if split so you’ll want to split into staves, chase a ring on the back and seal all the staves to prevent fast moisture loss. Even wood that has been drying for years can develop drying cracks. Once you have it split you could consider starting to work one down to dimensions as the more wood that is removed the faster it’ll dry.
-
Here in Texas, the wood will often begin to split the moment it hits the ground. If so, that is where I split it in halves. Then split those 2 halves in half. I dry mine indoors with the bark on. Take one of the quarters, and do as Ryan mentioned. Remove the bark and sap wood. Find the ring you want, establish a flawless back on it. Draw your design on the back, and reduce it to floor tiller stage, then let it dry. Paint or shellack the ends on all pieces and any exposed back. Congrats and it never happened, without pics🙂
-
It sounds like a good log to me. Start splitting on the small end, and depending on where and how deep the natural checks are might determine on how many staves you can get. I’ve gotten up to 4 if it splits good on 6” to 8” logs. Don’t try to risk getting more at the cost of quality. I would rather get 3 good staves than 4 mediocre ones. I have stored them for 10 years in my basement with bark on, and have also taken bark and sapwood off, sealed the backs with shellac and stored that way with good success. Always seal the ends either way you you do it. Anytime you open up the back, reseal it when you’re done. Even in the basement the humidity in my basement will vary from 27% to almost 60% depend on winter or summer.
And as stated before, get one down close to floor tiller stage, and it will dry faster.
Good luck, and keep us posted on your progress.
-
Thanks for the responses. I will be trying to split the log this weekend. I will get some pictures posted.
The log has been sitting in my son's garage with the bark on for over a year. But the ends were not sealed. There are no significant checks. How much longer would the staves need to continue to dry? I will make sure I seal them.
-
Moisture content can rise and fall with absorption as humidity rises and falls. I would chase a back ring, seal the back and then weigh them. Monitor the weight of them to see if they start losing weight as they dry. When they stabilize, you should be able to start working on them. When you’re done working on one, weigh it again, then before you work on it the next time check the weight and make sure it’s not still losing weight. Slow and steady is your friend.
-
Take the bark off the log so you can see what's under it first. Then you can tell where to split it to avoid knots, etc. You should remove the sapwood and seal the back and ends.You might only split it in half first and let it rest for a couple of weeks then split each half in half. This helps prevent twisting or warping that can happen if you split it down to staves right away.
-
Well here is what I have so far. The log is 73" long and 7" in diameter.
-
Well I cut off about 2 1/2 inches on the dry slightly checked end. It is now 70" long. No evident checks. I also earlier cut off a couple feet off one end that had branch stubs and a bend in it. So I now have two fresh ends with no checks. I sealed.those ends. The bark is still on. Now I have to figure out how to split it. I have an axe but no extra wedges to complete the split. Maybe I can make a small hatchet or two work.
-
Make some wedges from the cut off section
Hawkdancer
-
Not a great log but it does have bows in it, the bark also shows it will have twist in it when you split it.
-
Not a great log but it does have bows in it, the bark also shows it will have twist in it when you split it.
If I can manage to get two useable staves out of it I will be happy. That way when I screw up the first one I can start over. If I luck out and get three or four I will be ecstatic.
There are suggestions for leaving the bark on and for stripping it off. Either way I will sooner or later need a draw knife. I'll have to order one. Anybody have any recommendations for one?
-
Get an old one if you can find one. Bark on bark off is personal preference. Perfect world…chase a ring and seal it. Bark on works fine for me.
-
You can't see what the wood looks like with the bark on and there might be borer damage in the wood.
-
Everyone prefers more narrow early wood and wider rings right under the sapwood, but I've built plenty of good hunting weight bows from trees just like yours. If you don't have bad insect problems, by all means,Go for it! God Bless
-
I am going to a fairly big flea market tomorrow that usually has several booths selling older tools. I hope to pick up a draw knife there. With a little luck I might find an old axe head or other wedge to assist in splitting. I don't want to lay out too much money in case I manage to screw this log up.
-
Like Hawkdancer said, make some wedges out of the cutoff end you had. I’ve found some good vintage draw knives at local antique malls for $25 to $50 that were in excellent condition.
-
The first thing I would do is sealing the ends!!!!!!
-
The first thing I would do is sealing the ends!!!!!!
Yes sir. Did that yesterday when I cut the log down to its current length. I hope to get it split soon. I will take the bark off of half the log and leave it on the other half.
-
If the bark comes off the sapwood has to go as well, sapwood dries quicker than heartwood and will check quickly with the checks running down into the heartwood.
I use shellac for sealing the ends and back after removing the sapwood, if I get lazy and just remove the bark no amount of shellac will keep the back from checking.
One member here mentioned that he used a product called Anchor Seal and was able to strip the bark and apply Anchor Seal to the sapwood back and have no checking. This sounds promising but I haven't tried the product.
I got lazy and just pealed the bark off several of these pieces of osage, here is the result in spite of 4 coats of shellac.
-
Another thing; I always peal off the sapwood while the log is green, it slices off fairly easily at this stage. If you dried a stave bark on you have your work cut out for you removing cured sapwood, especially if the sapwood is thick.
I removed all the sapwood green but didn't chase a ring on almost every stave I cut in the last 25 years. it sure is nice to reach in your stash and have bark and sapwood free staves to work on.
On the left side of the picture you can see I removed almost all the sapwood and have some heart wood peaking through, these billets won't check because the sapwood is very thin.
-
Another thing; I always peal off the sapwood while the log is green, it slices off fairly easily at this stage. If you dried a stave bark on you have your work cut out for you removing cured sapwood.
I removed all the sapwood green but didn't chase a ring on almost every stave I cut in the last 25 years. it sure is nice to reach in your stash and have bark and sapwood free staves to work on.
Ok, Going to remove some sapwood from staves that I put in my shed a few weeks ago. Hope it's not too late yet! :o
I was avoiding it a bit as I was preoccupied with buidling a bow ::)
-
If you are good with a bandsaw you can slice off most of the sapwood. This is what I do now, I take of little 6" slices with the bandsaw just like I would do with a drawknife. I still have to clean up the last little bit of sapwood with a drawknife to make sure I don't get my bandsaw blade into the heartwood.
-
I end up drooling every time he posts that photo. ::) :)
Good luck,
-
Lots of good advice to consider. Some of these considerations are out of my control since my son acquired the log for me and it has been drying in his garage over a year with the bark on and the ends unsealed. Fortunately the log he saved was long enough to cut some off of each end to get to fresh log. I then sealed the ends while deciding how to proceed. Whatever drying has already occurred I can't do any more about. Hopefully when I get it split and debarked I have something useable. We will see.
-
So, going on 30 years with my love affair with Bodark. Most of what has been written is accurate. Peeling the bark without taking the sapwood off CAN cause some wild checking, but not always. I have 2 Bodark staves I am working on now that the bark was taken off and the sap wood left in place. It was shellacked and left to dry. One has little thin rings and the sap wood is 1/4 inch thick. The other has fat rings and the sap wood is an inch thick, also shellacked. Not a single check (on the back) on either one. Thin one I worked down to floor tiller over the last couple of weeks. Tough sap wood, but thin enough, it was not much of a problem. The thick one I tackled last Sunday. I chased a ring half way down the stave last Sunday, and plan on finishing that today. Just murder to get the sap wood off. Horrible! My 60 year old hands hurt all week from it. Getting it off green is so much easier. But no checks in either, save some checks along the split side on one. Nothing on the back. Pat is right in that you dont know what is under the bark if you leave it on. And wood wasps can be a concern, but I dry them indoors, so no concern there. That brings me back to where we came in, lot's of ways to skin that cat (no offense to all the cat lovers), and each way has it's plusses and minuses. Again, it is nice to reach for the next stave and not have to kill yourself establishing your back. That is where I am at on this damn thing I am fighting with now. I have taken a hammer and chisel to it to remove the the evil concrete like sap wood.
-
From the post above. Without pics, it didn't happen.
-
If you cannot find an antique drawknife, do NOT buy a modern one that looks like it was milled from a flat rectangular bar of steel. Especially if the handles are spray-painted orange. Those are cheap junk that cannot keep an edge. If you have to buy a new draw knife, go to a reputable woodworking tool company like Lee Valley Tools and buy a really good one. I recommend Lee Valley's Austrian drawknife ($65) because it comes nearly shaving sharp and is Rc58-60 on the hardness scale so it holds an edge like Scrooge McDuck holds onto money!
Lots of the folks here that I respect will tell you that a dull draw knife works better to chase rings on osage, but in my experience that only applies to well-seasoned wood. A sharp tool parts wood better, especially when hogging off sapwood and bark. Also, a sharp drawknife works better for shaping the profile as it will cut closer to a line as opposed to busting through with brute force.
It's true a poor workman blames the tool, but they didn't build the Space Shuttle with a rock tied to the end of a stick and a bent screwdriver. Never scrimp on quality tools, they work better and last longer, saving money and sweat in the long run.
I think you have at least one good bow in that log and I look forward to seeing your progress!
-
Agree with JW on all of that. For me, razor sharp, in every application, but others may use them differently than I do. See for yourself which you like best.
-
If the sap wood is that tough why not just leave it on?
-
I built ONE, decades ago with a sapwood back. It was an ugly cream/yellow color and tiny little cracks all over it. Hundreds of them. Just not a fan of it.
-
Well my flea market pursuit of a draw knife was a total failure. Not the first sign of one. I guess I can try a local antique mall next.
In the meanwhile I came home and checked out on line sources for new ones. The Lee Valley Austrian gets good reviews but they are out of stock. Looked at Two Cherries, Muller and some others that all seemed too cheap or way too expensive. Then I found some on Garrett Wade for $79. The only question about those is the blade is only 6 inches wide. That seems more than adequate for a stave but not sure for a log.
-
If the sap wood is that tough why not just leave it on?
Just my guess here but I imagine the sap wood is not as strong in tension as heart wood and if it is going to make up a significant layer in the back of a bow that would be a problem.
-
I think location and different osage has something to do with sapwood checking. I live in N/W Alabama, every stave I left the sapwood on checked just like the one I posted a picture of, that is over 25 years of osage cutting and probably 300 staves cut and saved.
As far as drawknives; the little ones aren't up to the task of serious wood removal. This is just me and I am sure someone will chime in about using the 8" Swedish drawknife for all their work and how well it works for them.
What I have found is whatever a person starts out with and uses will become their favorite drawknife. I started out with a huge debarking drawknife, I learned how to use it and can do very intricate work with it.
Here are my drawknives, the one on the top is my debarking drawknife, the one on the bottom is the Swedish one. the ones in the middle are flea market drawknives that work well but I like my debarker because of the extra weight, once I get it going I can take a lot of wood off quickly. I like my drawknives as sharp as I can get them.
The second drawknife down is a Greenlee, a really good quality drawknife that was pretty common back in the day, I gave $20 for it at fleamarket.
The third one down is a Pine Cone and a gift from a dieing friend. A HVAC guy who rehabs parolees came to work on my unit and brought one of his trainees, after they left I noticed things missing from my shop, the Pine Cone drawknife was one of the things that disappeared. As you can see it has a narrow blade, I found it was harder to remove wood with it because of the light blade.
The Swedish drawknife on the bottom is useless for heavy duty stuff, the blade is thin and flexes too much, the steel is good and it holds an edge well but I only use it for working around pin knots.
-
Well my flea market pursuit of a draw knife was a total failure. Not the first sign of one. I guess I can try a local antique mall next.
In the meanwhile I came home and checked out on line sources for new ones. The Lee Valley Austrian gets good reviews but they are out of stock. Looked at Two Cherries, Muller and some others that all seemed too cheap or way too expensive. Then I found some on Garrett Wade for $79. The only question about those is the blade is only 6 inches wide. That seems more than adequate for a stave but not sure for a log.
PM me your address. I can remedy your situation. This one isn't pretty. A former owner decided acid was the go to for rust removal. But it takes and edge and will serve you for as long as you'll ask her to and take care of her life in spite if her appearance. I don't typically sell tools that look like this, but try hard to get them were they'll be used. It's yours if you'll use it. I've sharpened it, but if you want it really sharp, the final honing is on you.
-
if it splits straight there is about 7 to 8 bows in it...definitely get sapwood off.. spray with bug spray and seal back and ends.. gut
-
Well my flea market pursuit of a draw knife was a total failure. Not the first sign of one. I guess I can try a local antique mall next.
In the meanwhile I came home and checked out on line sources for new ones. The Lee Valley Austrian gets good reviews but they are out of stock. Looked at Two Cherries, Muller and some others that all seemed too cheap or way too expensive. Then I found some on Garrett Wade for $79. The only question about those is the blade is only 6 inches wide. That seems more than adequate for a stave but not sure for a log.
PM me your address. I can remedy your situation. This one isn't pretty. A former owner decided acid was the go to for rust removal. But it takes and edge and will serve you for as long as you'll ask her to and take care of her life in spite if her appearance. I don't typically sell tools that look like this, but try hard to get them were they'll be used. It's yours if you'll use it. I've sharpened it, but if you want it really sharp, the final honing is on you.
Don, Thanks very much for the offer. When my flea market mission failed I got impatient and ordered one. It is a Mueller with a 9 1/2 inch blade. It is supposed to be hand forged in Austria. Hopefully I didn't waste my money. I hope to split this log later today.
-
Finally managed to get the log split today. Other things kept popping up and ruining my plans. How come nobody told me that splitting an osage log is a lot of work.
At any rate pictures below show what I have so far. I plan on splitting the left half one more time and stripping the bark. I have a draw knife coming today. I will reseal the right half and save it as is for now and store it in the garage. It looks like I have some twist I will have to deal with.
After this next split hopefully later today or tomorrow I will strip bark and reseal the ends and the back.
-
Good luck with that snake. If you had done your homework you would know about the splitting job ;D
-
Been doing my homework since 1999. Just never finished the class. I expected a fun time and I got it. I just like to grouse about it. Today's over 90 degrees and high humidity just made it oodles of fun.
And even snakes need love.
-
I remember splitting locust fence post when I was a kid. Wish I could find those locust now!
-
If you think that was bad, try splitting some elm!
-
I just split a half log of Black gum, and I split Elm the same way with a sharp bladed chain saw. Larger logs of Osage can be tough to split. Just have to stay with it with wedges, and a 10 pound sledge.
-
Osage is tough to split. Elm is just…ridiculous.
-
Osage is tough to split. Elm is just…ridiculous.
Elm splitter upper
-
Well I split one of the halves today. Then I stripped bark and started working on the sapwood.
Unfortunately I chose the wrong stave to start with. An injury of some sort on the out side could not be eliminated. I worked all morning and into the afternoon and the results are what you see in the picture. The dark area is all dried out with checking in there. More than half the stave is still covered in sapwood. I know that bow building involves work but this morning was not even a little bit of fun.
My log may not be suitable for someone with my lack of experience. The twist and the snakiness got more exagerated with the splits. I am going to insect spray and reseal the remaining splits and contemplate my next step.
I have developed huge respect for those who do this on a regular basis. I don't know how bows get built as quickly as some seem to be able to do it. It would take me at least a couple more days to just finish getting the sapwood off.
Another potential problem for me with this log is that the rings are very close together. Not sure if I am going to be able to chase a ring without violating it. Some of you probably would have no trouble. But I have watched rings get messed up several times already.
Anyhow it is time to sit a bit and rethink this.
-
nothing is harder to split than wet Southern Sweetgum... change my mind... gut
-
It is a lot of work, no doubt, but like most anything, the first time is by far the hardest. It does not get easier, you just get to know the road better, and how long it will take to get to your destination. Straight, blemish free staves with fat rings are easiest. This one appears to be none of those 3 things.