Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Muzzleloaders => Topic started by: sleek on July 23, 2021, 07:16:31 pm
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Been wanting to build one since I learned about muzzle loaders in school. I'd spend hours daydreaming of designs, building, and killing deer from impossible distances. Well, im scheduled for a hunt mid December and it's a muzzle loader. Time to fire out what im gonna do and get to it.
Now my last name is Hawkins so that's an obvious influence on what will be my choice. I want a long gun, hex barrel and powerful enough to really reach out but not to the point of being painful to shoot.
I need suggestions on kits. Budget is around 1500. I obviously am under a time crunch but I do have 4 hours a day every day to work on it. Another consideration I have is, are primers and power available? I've heard they are not. What's the best way to guarantee availability of ammo?
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I have never built one but all the experts say a Hawken is the hardest gun to build, they are not particularly long and have a large straight barrel that is heavy. Google images of Samuel Hawken guns for reference
Remember there are kits and there are kits, Lyman and Traditions are pretty much bolt together. A Lyman planes rifle kit would be a good choice but it is said the quality has gone down lately.
Kibler are only made in flint but give you a historically correct kit that is perfect for the beginner with no experience, you still have to fit stuff into the stock but the stock shaping is done.
All the others are parts kits, the stock is rough shaped, none of the parts fit, none of the holes are drilled or tapped for screws. These kits are pretty complex and require some gunsmithing skills.
Here is one parts kit for a plains rifle;
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/615/1/KIT-CARSON-HAWKEN-RIFLE-PARTS-LIST
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I appreciate the info. The link you listed, I like how it looks, but I don't understand any of the particulars. Now im ignorant of how difficult a Hawken will be to build in comparison to any other model, and I want to use that to my advantage. Many things I have done I would never have done if I had known how hard they would be in advance.
So, if you think that model is a good one, and a guy with reasonable to advanced fabrication skills could make it inside 5 months with steady 4 hours a day effort, then I'll get it. What caliber should I get for big white tail and long distance open sight, and while I'm at it, how many yards is one of these good for?
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My deer rifles are .54s, I shoot 80 gr of 2F and a 226gr patched round ball, at 100 yards my bullet energy is the same as if you put a 45 auto against the side of a deer and pulled the trigger, lots of stopping power, my load is good to about 200yards. You can load up to 120 gr of powder and reach way out there, I chose the most accurate combination for my gun.
There are two different kinds of barrels you can put on these guns, one with slow (1 turn in 66") twist rifling made for shooting patched round balls or one with a fast twist rifling (1 in 28" or 32") made to shoot a large conical bullet. I don't like the big conicals because of the severe recoil, these things can be brutal.
As far as completing one of these guns from a parts kit it depends on your patience, reference material and tools available to you and knowing how to use them. The problem with precarved stocks is the precarver makes mistakes, some really bad ones that you have to be able to correct.
I have made two guns from precarves and two from a stock blank, it was actually easier to make a gun from a blank than to make one from a precarve because the precarves were off center and poorly inletted and it took me more time to fix the flaws than it would have taken to shape the stock myself.
Here is a common flaw, a precarve lock inlet that is not in the right place, the pan should center my X mark on the barrel, in this case it is below the side flat of the barrel and just won't work. I had to glue in a shim in the inlet and drop the barrel deeper in the barrel channel to get the lock up where it is supposed to be, this took me at least a week.
Other flaws on this precarve were a ramrod hole that was improperly drilled that went to low in the forestock and had a bow in the channel and gouged out place in the forestock that I had to patch. This is on a kit that had $1100 worth of parts in it, unacceptable.
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On a plank build I recommend having the barrel channel and ramrod hole drilled by a professional, the layout and shaping is fairly easy, the first thing you do is install the buttplate which gives you buttstock dimensions then move forward inletting parts as you go. The buttplate gives you length of trigger pull and any cast off if you want it.
I use full sized plans, make a pattern and transfer it to the stock blank. The plans will give you cross section cut outs to show you how to round and shape the stock at different points from one end to the other. you can see these cutouts above the buttstock of the pattern I am transferring to a piece of cardboard for a pattern to lay on the stock blank and copy.
Another biggie, the parts shown on the plans like the lock probably won't be the same size as the ones in your kit, trace around your parts on the stock, don't rely on the pictured part for an inlet because they may throw off the location your part actually needs to be in. I learned on my first build that the lock sear and the trigger geometry were way off if I followed the plans to a "T" in regards to lock location.
The other picture is the finished gun that I made this way, a 12 ga English fowler turkey/ deer smooth bore. This build took me about a year.
(https://i.imgur.com/1mi1qvO.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/G0RSS61.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/18bddhp.jpg)
This is the way I got the blank back after I sent it off to have the barrel channel cut and ramrod hole drilled.
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Watch this series to see if you have what it takes to make a parts kit gun.
Start here and proceed through all the videos, there are over 25 of them about a precarve build.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JPvkMKxRv8
Go to this next to get started on the build.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxPpfCA8T6k
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If you decide to build don't buy a set of carving tools, you won't use 90% of them on a build, buy or make a couple of small gouges and you are good to go. You will need an 1/8" and 1/4" chisel, an Exacto knife and all of your bow making files, rasps and scrapers as well as a mill bastard file for drawfiling the barrel and a tri- corner file for cutting sight and underlug dovetails.
I use a Dremel sparingly, you can mess up a build faster with this tool than any other, I have extensive experience as a power duck decoy carver using a Dremel and a Fordom tool so I cautiously use one on lock internal inlets. For someone without experience, keep away from this tool on a gun build.
I have made a variety of small chisels, scrapers and gouges out of concrete nails for inletting difficult areas in the stock.
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The best and most historically accurate Hawken kits are made by a guy named Don Stith, it is my understanding that he is having serious health issues at the present and is out of the loop right now. https://donstith.com/
I just checked, Don is battling bladder cancer that has spread to his lymph nodes, he is in the first few weeks of chemo treatments.
The Track of the Wolf link I posted is just the first that came to mind, I have no first hand knowledge about its overall quality.
Go to the American Longrifle site and ask the guys in the gun building section what they think of the kit and their advice about a newbie completing this Hawken kit and if it is any good. These guys really know their stuff.
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Boy, once I get started on this stuff I can go on forever.
I guess the key is, how crafty are you, some folk are and some don't have a crafty bone in their body. I found this out from teaching bow making, only about one out of a dozen students had what it took to complete a bow on their own after I helped them through their first, they just didn't have the "crafty" gene.
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Sleek, you might consider a flintlock - no need for caps, and a pound of 4fg will last a long time. Look for a black powder club in your area. There may be a gun builder and a powder source.
Hawkdancer
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Just checked the order form for the track kit, they don't have any barrels(backordered) and only pain stock wood.
When I gave all this advice I didn't take into account that there has been a run of gun kit parts and they are in very short supply. It might take you 6 months to a year to get a complete kit.
What I did on all my rifles was to buy a part here, a barrel there, a stock blank from someone else and so forth until I had all the components for a build.
It looks like the Gun Works has barrels but just about no one else.
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Take into account that the Hawkins gunshop built rifles for many years in the East before relocating west to St Louis. And even after moving west, they built most of their guns in flintlock and fullstock, not the halfstock business you see in movies. In fact, their halfstock rifles were more expensive than the fullstocks!!!
The caplock ignition was not at all common until about 1840 when the fur trade era was in steep decline.
I remember hearing stories that in the 1970's someone started selling off the last of the Hawkins gunshop parts and a number of full rifles were assembled completely from ORIGINAL PARTS.
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Ok, definitely going to go the flintlock route. I like the idea of not being primer dependent. That should open my barrel options so.e right guys? I'm seriously gonna just ask yall, cause yall know infinitely more than me, to find me a kit please that has everything I need and I can get all the parts. I'm a bit overwhelmed with options, lack of parts, and lack of knowledge.
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Any barrel you can get in percussion you can get in flint. For a Hawken you can get a straight or tapered barrel (big at the breech and smaller at the bore), the straight sided barrel is a beast and will make a gun weigh at least 10#, I would go with a tapered barrel.
Considering the lag time for parts I don't think you will make your window of opportunity for your Dec hunt. You could buy a rifle "in the white" that is complete less wood and metal finish and make your hunt.
In all honesty flint rifles are hard to shoot, you have more lag time before they go off and the flinch factor comes into play, for that reason they are called "flinchlocks".
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Sleek,
I am a “new guy” to building. I did a couple of very basic Lyman kits…a good starting point. The guns are very heavy, though. You may look at a Plains Rifle? Then I did a .62 Trade Gun from Sitting Fox. that was the more challenging full kit that requires inletting, drilling, etc. A challenge, but it came out well.
To do over for that first full kit project I think I’d go with a .62 smooth bore Appalachian Barn Gun kit from Sitting Fox and the shorter barrel! It gives the most options, I’d say…and a good price.
That guy’s winter place is down here in S FL so I went to the shop for the kit. Very straightforward.
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I think he needs a rifle instead of a smoothbore, he wants to reach out and touch them.
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Indeed it's a rifle I'm wanting. Eric, if you have the time and energy, I'd appreciate your knowledge in piecing together a kit for me. With all the parts that aren't available, the good parts the bad ones, what goes to what, im out of my element here. I don't have the knowledge to even know what questions to ask.
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You have to decide on exactly what style gun you want, for a beginner I would go with percussion.
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Mostly you need reference material that you can refer to during the different steps of a build.
A lot of us started out with "The Gunsmith of Grenville County" which is pretty through.
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/303/1/BOOK-GGC
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I'll be searching for and buying that promptly. Thank you.
As for style, I do want a Hawken, and I like the full stock. I understand what JW said about the flinch with flint, but why do you recommend percussion?
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The better quality locks are just as fast as per-cussin'. I have seen many videos where it shows the ignition is faster than the eye blink in a flinching shooter. It's no different than training out the flinch in shooting modern guns....concentrate on follow thru on the shot.
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I have a late Ketland and a Roller lock that are very fast, I have a Deluxe Siler and and English round face that are not fast all the time.
Flint can be very fast but all the stars have to align, freshly sharpened flint, humidity and how long the prime has been in the pan, fowling from previous shots and most of all how well your lock is tuned. For instance; I have never balanced the spring tension between my main and frizzen spring, something that is supposed to make a huge difference in lock timing. I do polish all the surfaces of my lock internals to a mirror finish.
I have killed a lot of deer with my flintlocks, bottom line, deer (at least Alabama deer) "jump the string" on flintlocks because of slow lock times so you better aim low. Hang fires do happen in spite of all your caution to prevent them, I have never had a percussion gun hang fire on a deer.
My point is; I don't feel like a flintlock is an entry level gun, especially if you have never dabbled in black powder before. I shot percussion for 40 years before I transitioned to flint, my flintlocks were very frustrating to me at first. I missed the biggest buck I have ever seen in the woods at 30 yards because of a flash in the pan, re-primed then had a hang fire and a flinch. It was snowing huge wet snow flakes that evening, had I been shooting percussion my gun would have simply gone "bang".
The last deer I shot at with my flintlock was what appeared to be a 10 point at 12 yards. I had my lock-on set between too huge trees, I had my stand on one and could rest my rifle on the other, I had my smooth bore 12 with the English round face lock. The buck never saw me as he eased by, I put my sights on him (I have a rear sight on this smoothie),rested on the tree in front of me and touched it off, the lock hang fired. It appeared the buck dropped and crouched backward before the gun went off. I thought I missed, so I got down and looked for blood, I didn't find any and headed back to the truck. Back at the truck I got that feeling that I should go back and look one more time so I did. About 100 yards from where I shot the buck I found a bed with about a thimble full of blood in it and a few pinhead sized flecks of blood leaving the bed that were very hard to follow in the dark. I decided to back off and come back the next morning.
The next morning I went off in the hollow in the direction where the deer was headed but didn't find any blood, I walked up the whole hollow and back to where I took the shot and started over. This time I could follow the tiny flecks of blood right back to where I had been in the hollow and up the other side, we are talking a pinhead size fleck of blood every 10 to 15 yards. I followed the trail to a depression on the hillside up the ridge that had 3 beds in it, the newest had fresh blood in it but only about a teaspoon. The buck had been watching his back trail and obviously had run over the ridge when I made my first foray up the hollow.
I looked all morning on the ridge and later in the day I found 3 drops of blood where the buck had gone off the ridge down an almost vertical drop into a deep creek bottom I didn't have permission to go on and could have never recovered a deer from if I did, I lost the deer, a real bummer.
And folks, that is the reality of a flintlock, when they work right they are great, but they don't always work just right. Try to kill an alert squirrel with one and you will see what I mean, the little rascal won't be where he was when your gun goes off. Don't even think about shooting at a deer that is looking at you, I guarantee he will move faster than the lock of your gun.
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In the late 19th century a gunsmith created a highly advanced form of the Wheel Lock. This was a exercise in design rather than expected to be commercially viable.
The advanced wheel lock proved to be as fast and reliable in ignition as cartridge arms of the day.
I believe only a handful were made , perhaps only one. It was in the form of a dueling pistol or target pistol.
I've considered trying to make a wheel lock using commonly available cigarette lighter type flints, or those used in friction lighters for butane torches. The wheel could be compact with an enclosed clock spring drive, similar to the recoil spring of the Lewis Gun.
I had tried striking sparks using natural iron pyrites but these crumbled into separate crystal like chunks with very little pressure.
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This buck dropped at least foot when I took the shot, I spined him, the visible hole in his neck was a coup de grâce to finish him off while he was thrashing on the ground. The gun is my 12 ga smoothie mentioned in the above story.
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Here's a PDF file of plans for constructing a Wheel Lock action.
https://strzelecka.net/obrazki/Wheellock_Plans.pdf
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Here's a PDF file of plans for constructing a Wheel Lock action.
https://strzelecka.net/obrazki/Wheellock_Plans.pdf
That is quite the fascinating piece of equipment. I really like the entire idea behind it and am going to study the crap out of these drawings. Being a fabricator, thats right up my wheelhouse.
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Interesting plans, not exactly how I was taught technical drawing, but I'm sure I could figure it out. I'd love to see the finished product!
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OK guys, come backdown to earth, wheel locks are so complicated that even the very best builders in the country don't attempt to make one, there are a few that do but they are few and far between.
This is an assembled wheel lock kit from the Rifle Shop, would you want to hunt with a gun outfitted this way?
Should you attempt this kit keep in mind that all the parts are rough castings straight out of a foundry, all the machining, polishing and basic shaping, plus tempering and hardening the parts is up to you.
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Isn't that the lock system the early Spanish Arqubusers used back in the 16th century? Those weapons must have been the cost equivalent of a modern field artillery piece.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVW5c50UFAg
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Isn't that the lock system the early Spanish Arqubusers used back in the 16th century? Those weapons must have been the cost equivalent of a modern field artillery piece.
I think so, but a lot of those soldiers in the "New World" lost to a well placed atlatl dart! Apparently, some didn't even get off a shot! Stick with a good fast lock and modern materials. It is likely that percussion caps will re-enter the supply chain relatively soon. But you can always knap out a new flint, even from not so good rock! Next problem is going to be getting pure lead!
Hawkdancer
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From mid 16th Century on through the mid 18th century the Spanish mainly used the snaphance, a early and more complicated version of the flint lock.
In match lock days wheel locks were mainly issued to heavy cavalry. Wheel locks and match locks were often on the same battlefields, the common soldiers being unlikely to use the much more expensive wheel lock.
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Maybe I was thinking of match locks. I'm not surprised the atlatl could beat them, the plains Indians beat cap locks before the colt. Of course Custer's men didn't have armor. I do know that when the Spanish armor and firearms where matched against the Turkish armor and archery the weight of fire told heavily against the Turks.
Hopefully not too off topic :D
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Probably best to stick with the initial topic, gun building resources, how to get started and what is involved.
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We did get a bit off topic here! I will acquise to those who know what they are doing!
Hawkdancer
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Here is a step by step pictorial of building a full stock Hawken from a Track of the Wolf kit.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/100435142@N08/albums/72157639906287386
In this thread people are discussing Hawkens they built or had someone build for them, lots of pictures for reference.
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/full-stock-hawkens-rifle.126257/
Herb has built many outstanding Hawkens, here is his latest rifle and and plenty of reference material on how he replicated an historic rifle.
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=66626.msg671891#new
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I had forgotten about this place, someone on the ALR site just posted it, this is the end all be all of historically correct Hawken kits, the parts are cast from molds made from the original gun parts.
https://www.thehawkenshop.com/Departments/The-Hawken-Shop/Hawken-Rifles-and-Kits.aspx
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I'm digging into that site now. Thanks!
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This jewel just came up at a give away price, it was sold in the blink of an eye, it was really nicely made.
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/sold-halfstock-hawken-style-54-cal-custom-percussion-1980-period-525-shipped.135214/
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A little more perspective what an original Hawken build would be like with the pros and cons.
On page 3 Herb, who has built around 50 Hawkens rifles, posted a picture to put the size and weight of a copy of an original in perspective along with lighter guns he built as he got older.
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=67359.0