Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: ssrhythm on August 18, 2021, 07:32:49 pm

Title: Please look, tell me what you see, and tell me what, if anything should be done.
Post by: ssrhythm on August 18, 2021, 07:32:49 pm
If you even think you have an opinion on this, speak up please.  A lot of us on here NEED your advice and critical eye.  I'm not looking for praise unless it is warranted; I'm looking to get better and better at this.

Look at the FD pics below and study the bend and get an idea about what you think is good/bad about it.


(https://i.imgur.com/fWoyy8a.jpg);
(https://i.imgur.com/bHy70Ml.jpg)
Title: Re: Please look, tell me what you see, and tell me what, if anything should be done.
Post by: ssrhythm on August 18, 2021, 07:45:38 pm
I've had a comment about it being a "fine tiller" job.
I've had a comment saying the bottom limb is bending too much.
The bow is canted toward the camera as best I can to have the pic perpendicular and square to the camera.

I personally always looked at the bottom limb and thought that it was bending too much also, but the tips were even on the tillering rack against the grid board behind it, and it always strings up to brace height of 6.5-7" with about 1/4 or slightly less Postive Tiller.  So I called it good and finished the bow.

Well....now, it strings up to 1/4" positive tiller after sitting overnight, and it strings up to 1/8" to 1/4" positive tiller after sitting for just an hour or so after shooting....BUT

after shooting it in a bit, the tiller will flip to slightly negative tiller.

This is making me think that Simson is correct and the bottom limb is bending too much and I'm overstressing it.

The bow is shooting great and spitting out an 8.83 gpp arrow at 174-177 fps...and a 10gpp arrow at 164-167 fps with a 6.75" brace height (last measurements today)...I just have not found high enough spine arrows for the heavy tips I want to hunt with (I have test packs of doug fir up to 100# on the way).

Should I leave it as is, or should I take some scrapes from the top limb? 

Without any help from y'all, I'm thinking maybe take a few scrapes off the outter 1/3 to 1/2 of the top limb to get it bending a bit more.  I'm thinking that would stress the bottom limb a little less and get the two limbs bending more equally in relation to each other...which would allow the bow to maintain a slightly positive tiller throughout a shooting session or a long hunt where it stays strung for hours. 

But I don't want to rely on just my thinking on this...I really would appreciate your eye and advice based on what you see and your experience with such issues.  Maybe this is no big deal and I should call it good and hunt with it, but if there is an obvious problem with a fairly simple solution, I want to try to deal with it now.   Thanks.
Title: Re: Please look, tell me what you see, and tell me what, if anything should be done.
Post by: airkah on August 18, 2021, 08:44:50 pm
So I would not start changing your bow because of what I think.

To me, it looks like its the inner third on the top limb thats a bit stiff. I see the bottom limb going into a sharper bend a fist length out of the fade than what the top is doing. I think the outer half of each limb matches up pretty well, the inner half of the limbs are what makes the string angle on each limb a little different.
Title: Re: Please look, tell me what you see, and tell me what, if anything should be done.
Post by: Gimlis Ghost on August 18, 2021, 09:14:44 pm
So I would not start changing your bow because of what I think.

To me, it looks like its the inner third on the top limb thats a bit stiff. I see the bottom limb going into a sharper bend a fist length out of the fade than what the top is doing. I think the outer half of each limb matches up pretty well, the inner half of the limbs are what makes the string angle on each limb a little different.

I was about to post practically the same thing.
More the upper limb not bending enough rather than the lower limb bending too much.
Title: Re: Please look, tell me what you see, and tell me what, if anything should be done.
Post by: hoosierf on August 18, 2021, 09:34:05 pm
The outer third on the top is stiffer.  The bottom generally is too soft.  Adjust the top and you might have positively tillered bow by 1/2”. 
Title: Re: Please look, tell me what you see, and tell me what, if anything should be done.
Post by: hoosierf on August 18, 2021, 09:36:43 pm
As a side note, wood species and dimensions will get you a better answer. 
Title: Re: Please look, tell me what you see, and tell me what, if anything should be done.
Post by: sleek on August 18, 2021, 10:59:15 pm
If you even think you have an opinion on this, speak up please.  A lot of us on here NEED your advice and critical eye.  I'm not looking for praise unless it is warranted; I'm looking to get better and better at this.

Look at the FD pics below and study the bend and get an idea about what you think is good/bad about it.


(https://i.imgur.com/fWoyy8a.jpg);
(https://i.imgur.com/bHy70Ml.jpg)

Upper limb has a stiff spot in the inner third. It also seems to bend less than the lower limb. Fix the inner limb and you should be perfect.
Title: Re: Please look, tell me what you see, and tell me what, if anything should be done.
Post by: ssrhythm on August 19, 2021, 12:16:41 am
(https://i.imgur.com/fWoyy8a.jpg);
(https://i.imgur.com/IAEPZCM.jpg)
  Here??
Title: Re: Please look, tell me what you see, and tell me what, if anything should be done.
Post by: sleek on August 19, 2021, 02:06:54 am
Exactly
Title: Re: Please look, tell me what you see, and tell me what, if anything should be done.
Post by: bambule on August 19, 2021, 03:01:48 am
Or turn the bow around. For a mediterranen Grip and the center of the bow over the middle of the bow it maybe works, that the bending will change for an even tiller.

Greetz

Cord
Title: Re: Please look, tell me what you see, and tell me what, if anything should be done.
Post by: Don W on August 19, 2021, 08:26:58 am
I have a tillering stick as well as the tree. When I have questions about my bow like this I put it on the stick at full draw, lay it on the shop floor and draw an outline. Flip the bow and I can see exactly what's different. It helps sometimes.
Title: Re: Please look, tell me what you see, and tell me what, if anything should be done.
Post by: TimBo on August 19, 2021, 11:07:04 am
Does the top limb tilt back toward you just a smidge when you draw?  It looks like it is tipping that way, which would confirm that the top limb is a bit stiffer.
Title: Re: Please look, tell me what you see, and tell me what, if anything should be done.
Post by: hoosierf on August 19, 2021, 11:18:50 am
Disregard my comment on the bottom limb.  I meant it’s bending more.  Don’t touch it. 
Title: Re: Please look, tell me what you see, and tell me what, if anything should be done.
Post by: airkah on August 19, 2021, 12:08:03 pm
Quote from: ssrhythm
  Here??

Yeah that area.
Title: Re: Please look, tell me what you see, and tell me what, if anything should be done.
Post by: gutpile on August 19, 2021, 12:42:05 pm
top limb is a lil stiff for sure.. appears worse in the canted photo but the side view, its not as bad.. its there.. but not as bad as one photo appears.. gut
Title: Re: Please look, tell me what you see, and tell me what, if anything should be done.
Post by: Morgan on August 19, 2021, 03:51:43 pm
I have a tillering stick as well as the tree. When I have questions about my bow like this I put it on the stick at full draw, lay it on the shop floor and draw an outline. Flip the bow and I can see exactly what's different. It helps sometimes.

This! You will see exactly where the difference is. Don’t mean the tiller will be right, but you can match the limbs .
Title: Re: Please look, tell me what you see, and tell me what, if anything should be done.
Post by: ssrhythm on August 19, 2021, 10:57:55 pm
Thanks to all of you.  This is incredibly helpful.  I’m going to make a tree and do the outline flip.  RH is very high until Sunday-Monday.  I’ll rework the stuff area then and get things refinished enough until after hunting season.  Thanks for all the input.
Title: Re: Please look, tell me what you see, and tell me what, if anything should be done.
Post by: superdav95 on August 20, 2021, 10:55:09 am
You’ve likley made your decision already based on good advise here.  I agree with last outer 1/3 top limb too stiff if nit picking.  At least that is what I see with my eye based on photo.  Good luck and wonderful bow!
Title: Re: Please look, tell me what you see, and tell me what, if anything should be done.
Post by: Don W on August 20, 2021, 12:11:58 pm
Thanks to all of you.  This is incredibly helpful.  I’m going to make a tree and do the outline flip.  RH is very high until Sunday-Monday.  I’ll rework the stuff area then and get things refinished enough until after hunting season.  Thanks for all the input.

The other thing I've read, and haven't tried because I don't have a mirror in my shop, is stand in front of a mirror and look at the full draw, then flip the bow and do the same thing, and keep flipping and looking (i think this is in TBB but don't hold me to that). They say it helps, but again I haven't tried it.
Title: Re: Please look, tell me what you see, and tell me what, if anything should be done.
Post by: Dances with squirrels on August 20, 2021, 07:40:35 pm
Just to play the devil's advocate.... How can we give good tillering advice without comparing the drawn bow to its unbraced profile? What if the limbs aren't shaped the same unbraced? What if unbraced, the top limb has an area with a little reflex where it 'seems' to not be bending enough at full draw? In other words, how do you know you're not giving him bad advice based on an incorrect assumption that both limbs are identical unbraced?

Could be you're right... could be you're not. No way to know at this point. Without an unbraced side profile picture he shouldn't ask for or take our advice, and we shouldn't offer any. Just my 2 cents. Worth what ya paid for it  ;)
Title: Re: Please look, tell me what you see, and tell me what, if anything should be done.
Post by: ssrhythm on August 21, 2021, 04:33:27 pm
Just to play the devil's advocate.... How can we give good tillering advice without comparing the drawn bow to its unbraced profile? What if the limbs aren't shaped the same unbraced? What if unbraced, the top limb has an area with a little reflex where it 'seems' to not be bending enough at full draw? In other words, how do you know you're not giving him bad advice based on an incorrect assumption that both limbs are identical unbraced?

Could be you're right... could be you're not. No way to know at this point. Without an unbraced side profile picture he shouldn't ask for or take our advice, and we shouldn't offer any. Just my 2 cents. Worth what ya paid for it  ;)

You are certainly correct.  I have been posting on this bow throughout its progress from the time it was a 66" longbow that I overshot the weight reduction on, thru the cutting and recurving and sinewing, and now to all this.  It started in one thread and moved to the "Lil Eddy is Ready" thread....obcviously I was a little premature with that thread :D.  So there are unbraced and at brace pics of the bow in those threads.

I started this thread once I realized that my tiller was flipping during shooting sessions after I finished the bow and after I started the "Lil Eddy is Ready" thread, so that folks that had looked at that thread would look again to help me fix the problems, as it was becoming obvious that Lil Eddy wasn't ready.

Like most hedge sticks (Especially ones that are not tillered perfectly) this one has some knot areas, wavy grain, and some areas of natrual deflex that were removed with dry heat but still want to go back to its natural pre-heat shape.  The reason I was leaning toward the upper limb still being too stiff was due to it always having slight pos tiller when first strung that flipped to slight negative tiller during and after a shooting session.  This issue was getting more pronounced with every shooting session telling me that the bottom limb was being stressed too much in relation to the top. 

I took minimal scrapes off of three small areas in the identified stiff spots on the inner 1/3 that were definitely thicker and definitely not bending enough, and this has helped it a bunch.  The bow is holding 1/4" positive tiller after a serious 100+ arrow shooting session with a 6.75" brace height.  It seems to be shooting better also, but how much better will be determined when the wind, currently blowing a steady 15-20mph, dies down and I can run a variety pf bare shafts through it with various tip weights.

Here are the re-tillered FD pics.  My 9yo son took the pics; the concept of square and perpindicular regarding photos to him is still a bit confusing, so this is the best we can do for now.  The right pics are pretty square and I'm holding the bow straight out.  The camera angle on the left pic is a bit off, and I am holding the bow with a slight downward shot angle...so the tips are tilted in relation to the siding in the background as if I'm going to launch a 20 yard shot at a rabbit.

That said, I think the tiller is much better, and I'm liking that it is starting out and holding the positive tiller throughout the shooting session...telling me (I think) that the two limbs are bending and sharing the load more equally now.

The last pics are of the bow immediately after I unstrung it and approximately 30 minutes after unstringing.

Thanks again for the input and advice.
(https://i.imgur.com/mKJaP2w.jpg);
(https://i.imgur.com/UfnqNSv.jpg);
(https://i.imgur.com/SkM3PxX.jpg);
(https://i.imgur.com/FAil4m8.jpg)

Title: Re: Please look, tell me what you see, and tell me what, if anything should be done.
Post by: ssrhythm on August 21, 2021, 04:50:33 pm
 You can also see clearly in the last pic the area on the upper limb, where the outter 1/3 starts, the area where the natural deflex and a good bit of twist was removed with dry heat.  There was a lot of twist that had to be removed and a lot of deflex.  It still wants to go back to its deflex there during shooting, but that will be nearly or completely gone in a few hours.  There is still some twist, as I only removed what was necessary to get the string laying center belly of the recurved tip.  So that combo makes that spot look wonky if not a little hingy from one side...it does not look that way from the other side.  Regardless, its shooting sweet and fast and it's still showing 59-60lbs at 27", so I think I need to tune some arrows to it, refininsh it, and call it good for the elk hunt.  Thanks again for y'alls help.
Title: Re: Please look, tell me what you see, and tell me what, if anything should be done.
Post by: sleek on August 21, 2021, 05:15:00 pm
Between these lines the upper limb is still slightly stiff. Am I nit pickin? Yes, yes I am. But, it still wants a handful of light scrapes right there. It looks miles better already though and if you choose to leave it as is, nobody will blame you. But I just want you to see it.
Title: Re: Please look, tell me what you see, and tell me what, if anything should be done.
Post by: ssrhythm on August 22, 2021, 11:34:35 am
I’m going to examine that area really closely, but the significant knot just proximal to that area combined with a lesser knot at the distal 1/4 of that area and a Little beyond have it looking more non-working than it actually is (I think). 

When I looked at that limb as I was bending it, when bent but being held static, I saw the stiff area everyone was mentioning; when I flexed the limb, some small areas/spots around and within it were flexing….

And a couple of points in the stiff looking area and just beyond it were not bending.

I hit those non bending areas, and when I flex the limb now, I see the bend happening despite it still looking a little stiff in spots when held bent and static. 

The same is true for the outter 1/3 that I was originally thinking was too stiff when I looked at the pictures.  The outter 1/3 is bending more than it seems in the pics…as I pull it, I see the bend happening.  It could stand to bend a scosh more thru a spot out there, but the limb is twisted there, and it’s bending enough to work there without compromising the strength of that twisted (also a small knot swail/swale (sp)) spot. 

At this point, it is shooting dead and quiet, and it’s accurately hitting where I’m looking…and that was in a lot of wind yesterday with a couple of weak spined arrows, one river cane and light and the other Doug fir and heavy. 

I have a new set of test packs from 35 to 100 lbs Doug fir as of yesterday.  Bow is actually now pulling 58 at 27” and 60 at 28”.  As accurate as I can be with the crappy scale and rack set up I have.  So I lost ~ 2 lbs.  But that’s weight I needed to lose to be honest.

I’m going to look hard again at the spot today and analyze carefully, but time constraints are likely going to have me finishing it up temporarily for my hunt, as I need to find the perfect arrow spine, weight, tip, and FOC combo for this one in a hurry, get some arrows built, and quit dilly-dallying instead of hardcore practicing. 

I’m very confident that any elk within 25 that I can loose an arrow at from a good angle is going to die a noble and quick death.  I’d like to have that same confidence at 40 yards; I will not shoot past 25 at this point and not past 35 ever…probably will never, ever take a 35 yard shot, but I don’t do rangefinders, and the Western terrain has fooled this southern boy more than a lot in the three years I’ve been out here. 

Regardless, I’ve been shooting a variety of sticks a good bit and this one a lot…I just need to shoot this one with the arrow that I find suits it…and shoot it a ton with one of those arrows from all over….first-shot-is-the-only-shot-that-counts style.  Do some stump shooting and roving too.

Unless I see something different today, I’ll make any micro adjustments after the hunt. In late September-October.

Thanks for you input; I WANT nitpicking and constructive advice and pointers.  I listen to every comment and consider them all whether I directly acknowledge it or not. 

Thanks again.

Title: Re: Please look, tell me what you see, and tell me what, if anything should be done.
Post by: SLIMBOB on August 22, 2021, 01:44:01 pm
Just a bit to add...sometimes, a little prop twist can play havoc on reading one correctly.  From one side the top looks weak, and from the other side the bottom.  Look at them from different perspectives before taking wood off.  Ask me how I know this :)
Title: Re: Please look, tell me what you see, and tell me what, if anything should be done.
Post by: Selfbowman on August 22, 2021, 10:21:35 pm
Just a bit to add...sometimes, a little prop twist can play havoc on reading one correctly.  From one side the top looks weak, and from the other side the bottom.  Look at them from different perspectives before taking wood off.  Ask me how I know this :)

Yes and I have had some success ironing this out to an extent. Also had wigglers with good cast and plenty of shock.
Arvin