Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: JW_Halverson on August 11, 2022, 09:37:54 pm
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I had used this once long, long ago and I probably used too little acetone since I remember it was difficult to apply. Can I ask people to share with me their recipes and techniques? I am wanting to revisit this finish on a bow that will be seeing something of a more inclement weather situation that I usually encounter.
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Eric has a recipe I believe, you could message him
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John, one thing I heard about using Massey finish as a bow finish is to apply it in one swipe with a saturated applicator and let that dry before adding another. I've never used it as a bow finish but I've heard that if you try to wipe back and forth or before the first coat dries it comes out badly.
As far as a recipe I don't have one. When I used Massey finish to seal hemp handle wraps I mix the epoxy and add the solvent until it is the desired consistency. I like it very thin for the handle wraps and saturate the cordage then let it set. The solvent will flash off allowing the epoxy to cure.
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This is the most durable finish I have ever used but it does take a while to apply.
A friend gave me a bunch of baby food jars with lids that are perfect to mix this finish in. I don't measure anything, I squirt about a teaspoon of two-ton epoxy and hardener into the baby food jar, fill the jar up about half way with acetone and stir the mix with a popsicle stick until all the epoxy is dissolved. I dip a cleaning patch sized piece of cloth in the mix and quickly wipe it on the bow or arrow shaft that I am working on. More acetone gives you more working time until the mix gets too tacky to apply but will take more coats because the mix ration is thinner.
In a sealed jar any finish you have left over has about a week of shelf life before it sets up, this is one reason I only mix a small amount at a time.
On a hot day I can get three coats of this finish on a bow in one day because the epoxy cures quicker in the heat but in the winter, I may be able to put only one coat on in a day. This is a very shiny finish when completed, I usually give the bow a coat of satin spar urethane over the epoxy acetone to cut the shine.
You can crest arrows with acrylic paint and use this finish but it will dissolve any of the standard cresting paints. I use el-cheapo acrylic craft paints for cresting so I am good to go with this finish.
I have friends who have used alcohol and lacquer thinner instead of acetone but I haven't tried these solvents.
I have used this finish on a lot of arrows, I found if I lose one under the grass in the yard and find it 6-months later the feathers might be rotted but the shaft is still usable and in good shape.
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Great. Thanks Eric. That sounds pretty much like what Jimmi the Sammi told me a week or so ago when we were talking bows. I am thinking this will be laid over this sinew-backed hickory I have almost ready to finish up. With the sinew and hickory both loving to take on moisture, this ought to work pretty well.
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I will try this with liquid epoxy on a GF bow I am working on for a repair some time soon. Will keep you posted.
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This is something I’m gonna try as well. I’ve got a moose hunt comming up and worried about wet weather too and wood bow. Great info! Will any 2 ton epoxy work? I have some 5 min dry time stuff. Will this still work?
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I have a friend who uses the 5-minute stuff, naturally it sets up much quicker. I have used it as well and it worked just fine.
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This is something I’m gonna try as well. I’ve got a moose hunt comming up and worried about wet weather too and wood bow. Great info! Will any 2 ton epoxy work? I have some 5 min dry time stuff. Will this still work?
A well done tung oil finish is as resistant as anything :)
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how about being a little more primitive? ;) I once did an epoxy finish on one of my bows - it felt and looked like a plastic bow, not very primitive anymore. I removed this finish again and wont do it anymore.
how about uv-resistance? what I've heard epoxy does not like sun very much, shiny finish will maybe turn dull very soon?
I like epoxy in my gluelines tough...
justmy2c
cheers
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A question was asked and I answered it, if you don't like the finish don't use it, injecting a negative comment into the discussion serves no useful purpose.
I tried this finish (named after Jay Massy) after reading the Jay Massy book where he described hunting in Alaska with a sinew backed hickory bow, he had lost the bow in a river during a canoe accident and recovered it from under the water a month later only to find the finish was in perfect shape and the bow was still functional.
Applying this finish takes up to a week, I tried it, it was OK but being a bit lazy I prefer plain old Tru-oil as a bow finish.
I don't make primitive bows; I make all wood or natural material bows. I replicate bows made in the 30s and 40s, hardly primitive but nice bows none the less.
I build flintlock rifles as well; in the flintlock realm we have what we call what we call "thread counters" these are people who put down other people's work if they don't make perfectly period correct rifles, accoutrements and even hand stitched period clothing. These people are probably the most obnoxious, annoying people that you could ever possibly meet.
We have some "thread counters" on this site as well; I have been the target of their putdowns more times than I can remember.
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Sorry Eric if I hurt your feelings - and sorry again.
Just wanted to say that I personally dont like the plastic look and feeling on a wooden bow and that I think it does not fit to a wooden bow - it does not feel like wood anymore when you touch it. It just feels like plastic because it is plastic you put on your bow. I think this is a absolutely relevant point talking about this kinda finish and can be discussed. So where is your problem, why so aggressive? Sure it seals well. Longevity under UV (?) was the other point.... So obviously my comment was about very objective points regarding this topic and maybe very useful for others to make their decision on weather to use it or not for their wooden bows.
cheers
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It is called hijacking a thread and taking it off the rails; "how about being a little more primitive?", I mentioned the excessively shiny finish in my answer.
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Come'on Eric, lol, my post was far from being off topic - it's exactly and solely related to it and just expressed my personal experience and conclusions about it. I didn't offend anyone. Of course everyone is free to try or do this finish. I don't....usually sink my bows in rivers also ;) thanks for being friendly.
cheers
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JW
I have used epoxy in various formulations for boatbuilding work. It is well suited to applications demanding water resistance. I have no doubt Jay was impressed with his results, but question whether thinning an epoxy adhesive with acetone can create a sealant/finish that might be better than a epoxy product specifically formulated as a sealant/finish.
Some epoxy laminating resins are, by design, quite thin and well suited for your intended purpose. I use System 3 clear coat in applications similar to yours. I find warming the wood to 120* F prior to application of the resin significantly helps with penetration.
My preference for system 3 is only because it is available locally. West systems also has formulations with similar viscosities which I would presume to work equally well. These thinner formulations can also be thickened for usages that call for more viscosity.
When limiting my choices to a natural finish, I agree with Mike
A well done tung oil finish is as resistant as anything :)
On wet weather hunts here in Alaska, I keep a small tin of beeswax mix,( thinned into a firm paste with some oil), for frequent application as needed.
Dean Torges did some experiments published in one of his books which showed a wax finish to be most effective for his purposes also.
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"On wet weather hunts here in Alaska, I keep a small tin of beeswax mix,( thinned into a firm paste with some oil), for frequent application as needed.
Dean Torges did some experiments published in one of his books which showed a wax finish to be most effective for his purposes also." Quote from willie.
I have to admit I'm a fair weather archer (-S but I came across a simple recipe for a protective wax/polish to put over a shellac finish, (also to dull down shellac with wire wool). Can also be buffed to a shine apparently.
100g beeswax.
2 tablespoons of natural Carnauba wax flakes.
2&1/2 cups of real turpentine, (not substitute).
(Small batch by my calculation with slightly higher ratio of Carnauba wax flakes---->
10g beeswax, 5g Carnauba wax flakes, 70ml of real turpentine.)
Melt the wax together in a double boiler (optional, can be desolved in the turps but takes longer), remove from heat, add the turps, stir well with a wooden spoon, put in jars/tins, allow to cool before use.
I'm waiting on the ingredients to arrive and I will make up a batch.
Maybe a different ratio with more Carnauba wax would offer more water resistance, maybe also add a little linseed oil/other oil?. If a better recipe is known I'd be grateful to know.
R.D.
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Hello Rudy, I do the same but solve pitch in the turpenrine before mixing. All the four ingredients 25% per weight. Depending on temperature takes a few days to really harden out before it can be polished, but im fine with that mixture now for a few years back. Protects sinew as well. Cheers
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It's all grist for the mill for me, Eric. Jimmi the Sammi uses this on all his bows and I have seen his rather extensive rack, so I have a good idea of what it will look like. Well, his may look a little more refined than mine, he's a nitpicker on detail.
As for whether it will "thread counted", this bow ain't running in that crowd. Though I have a couple of projects coming up where I'm gonna be that thread counter! One in particular is gonna have me looking for some bear fat for the finish.
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I forgot to mention; after I read about Jay Massy's experience as well as being in the infancy of my bow making journey this finish became my go to finish for a number of years. I suspect I put it on close to 50 bows, possibly more, I put it on wood bows, snake skin backed bows (copperheads and western diamond backs) and lots of bamboo osage bows, for my customers hunting bows it got a spritz of spar to dull the finish, for my tournament shooters I left it shiny, it looked really good on a bamboo osage bow which was the most of the tournament shooters wanted at the time.
I came to realize this finish was overkill for an osage bow that didn't absorb moisture that readily so I went to simpler finishes. I used something between the Massy finish and Tru-oil but as that was 20 years ago, I can't remember what it was.
Here is the Massy finish muted with spar, this bow had 13 drying checks down the back, I filled them with superglue, the bow is still shooting.
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You can buy epoxy based finishes no problem nowadays - you've just got to look! Kinda pointless making your own.
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Some of us like to experiment with different things and don't feel like this type of piddling is "pointless". My piddling may be trying new garden techniques off the top of my head, food plot planting, bow making or flintlock building. I have come up with some new innovative stuff as well as plenty of complete failures.
The Massey finish I put on one bow might have cost me 20 cents, I have the materials in my shop all the time for other projects so buying anything else seemed "pointless" to me. I could mix up enough finish for a couple of bows in about 30 seconds, sure beats a trip to the store to buy a specialize finish.
Case in point; my tillering gizmo, I could tiller a bow just as well with conventional methods, I was experimenting with old ideas to come up with a new concept, this didn't seem "pointless" to me.
Here is my first workable gizmo, a far cry from what I ended up with, the brass screws hold the pencil in place, adjustment was very cumbersome and worked poorly.
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This is off topic but shows some of my piddling; a vertical cantaloupe patch, dang if it didn't work really well. I suspended the cantaloupes in a bird netting pouch held up with an S hook. I used a cattle fence panel attached to metal T posts for my trellis.
(https://i.imgur.com/oNFVlux.jpg)
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You can buy epoxy based finishes no problem nowadays - you've just got to look! Kinda pointless making your own.
Well then why make your own bow or pine pitch or arrow, you can buy all those things too.
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whole point in doing it the hard way... agree with Allyn here.. gut
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JW. Got some bear fat too if you need it.
JtS
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i agree 1000% with eric,allyn,and gut,i love hearing about these homemade recipes,thats what its all about!!
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Eric, I have run squash plants up into fencing, too. I thought I would need to make hammocks, but it turned out they could handle their own weight. Squash went from taking up 400 square feet of garden space to a mere 20 square feet for the same amount of produce! I have cukes on a trellis now, too.
Again, all grist for the mill in the end.
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It is called hijacking a thread and taking it off the rails; "how about being a little more primitive?", I mentioned the excessively shiny finish in my answer.
No matey that is how you interpreted the reply.
NYou can buy epoxy based finishes no problem nowadays - you've just got to look! Kinda pointless making your own.
Well then why make your own bow or pine pitch or arrow, you can buy all those things too.
[/quote
blah, blah.....kind of a stupid reply - why don't you grow all your own staves then ;)
I suggested buying epoxy based finishes because a) they are better b) messing with acetone isn't really my thing - you like breathing those fumes as it gases off?
To take your point a little further how many people make their own finishes, collect every
single resource they use to make bows oh and of course forge their own tools on a hand built forge.....I think you will find virtually everybody buys most/if not at least a lot of their stuff.
I would suggest this forum is going downhill fast - too many people too willing to get personal and start flinging nonsense about. Come on guys why not grow up and live and let live. Somebody offers a different opinion - so what - no need to get all arsey about it. Remember other people can also have experience and guess what they could also be better or worse at doing something than you.....
Lets get the ego's in check :)
peace out
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It is called hijacking a thread and taking it off the rails; "how about being a little more primitive?", I mentioned the excessively shiny finish in my answer.
No matey that is how you interpreted the reply.
NYou can buy epoxy based finishes no problem nowadays - you've just got to look! Kinda pointless making your own.
Well then why make your own bow or pine pitch or arrow, you can buy all those things too.
[/quote
blah, blah.....kind of a stupid reply - why don't you grow all your own staves then ;)
I suggested buying epoxy based finishes because a) they are better b) messing with acetone isn't really my thing - you like breathing those fumes as it gases off?
To take your point a little further how many people make their own finishes, collect every
single resource they use to make bows oh and of course forge their own tools on a hand built forge.....I think you will find virtually everybody buys most/if not at least a lot of their stuff.
I would suggest this forum is going downhill fast - too many people too willing to get personal and start flinging nonsense about. Come on guys why not grow up and live and let live. Somebody offers a different opinion - so what - no need to get all arsey about it. Remember other people can also have experience and guess what they could also be better or worse at doing something than you.....
Lets get the ego's in check :)
peace out
I would say the person calling my reply "kind of stupid" is the arsey one but hey that's my experience ; )
Also you said making your own finish was pointless, never mentioned fumes or it not being your cup of tea. The point remains however that doing things on your own is kind of the reason people are here. As for forging your own tools vs mixing two ingredients together, I'd say there is a disparity in the skill and difficulty requirements for those two.
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OK guys, lets quit bickering. If you don't agree with someone it's ok to disagree but then move on. You don't need to get the last word in.
I first heard about epoxy finishes(ie, Massey finish) from reading Jay Massey's books. He started using it because he mostly hunted in Alaska where the conditions are frequently wet and especially floating the Moose John River(fictional river but actual hunts). In one situation his boat flipped over and it wasn't until 3 days later that he found his bow down river and with little if any ill affects.
Simk, I don't know if you hunt where you live but frequently hunters are in situations where their bows get wet, either by hunting in the rain or, like Jay Massey, a bow falls in the water.
All of our main concerns are related to protecting our wood bows from moisture and it usually is water vapor rather than just water we should be concerned about. For years, Jay's go to bow finish was French polish, shellac and linseed oil and he was hunting Alaska then too...and most of Jay's bows were sinew backed so because of the hygroscopic properties of wood, sinew, hide glue and fish skin coverings a good moisture protection was and is by most of us, needed, whether we are hunters or not.