Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Shooting and Hunting => Topic started by: Black Moshannon on September 06, 2022, 08:15:12 pm
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Today I mapped out my point on and some gaps. Pretty happy with the way this is going. Deer season is coming up soon and I want to be ready, plus I need to define and refine my aiming system. I spent the whole spring and summer learning the NTS style of shooting cycle as taught by Tom Clum (I got his course, solid archery mechanics). I have finally got to the stage where I feel comfortable with the shot cycle and I’m ready to figure out my gaps. I like reading about other peoples gaps and arrow tuning and setup, I know not everyone is into this stuff though. But for those who get nerdy here’s the stats.
Bow is 45# hickory working handle D bow, 64” long by 1.25” wide, braced to 6.5 inches. Linen string with tie on linen nock point. Shooting off knuckle. Arrow was a Surewood Doug fir. I needed to shoot a field point for the bag target to have them stick in and measure the gap and I can’t use my shoot shafts for that since I don’t put field points on them, I use antler blunts for practice with the shoot arrows. I had to have an arrow weight which matched that of my wild rose and honeysuckle arrows, which range from 610-670 grains with point attached. The Doug fir are a lot lighter than that so what I did was, I used a 55-60 spine with 190 grain field point. Cut them to 30 inches before attaching point. Total weight was 640 grains, which matches my rose and honeysuckle arrows. I realize after doing the math the spine may be a tad stiff there with the wide arrow pass I’m using, but I didn’t get any clattering or impact left problems.
So with a 45# bow and 640 grain arrow I got a hair over 14 GPP. Draw length of 26”,three fingers under hook on string, anchoring with arrow at cheekbone, and aligned under eye, bow as vertical as possible. I found the best string blur was just to right of arrow. Moving my head/eye more to right and into string causes impact to drift left, and vice versa with moving head left.
Point on distance is 26 yards, maximum gap of 20 inches at 13 yards. 20 yard gap is 16.5 inches. I realize the numbers may not be literally that exact every time but that’s the average. I certainly won’t be shooting past 20 yards for any reason on a hunting shot. I’m happy that between 15-20 yards I can reliably put the point somewhere behind the hoof/leg line, using that line as an elevation reference, and expect the arrow to impact up from there. I know the arrow setup is slower than say a 10 GPP setup but I need to have a gap I can use accurately, plus when I get my rose arrows spined down to fly right out of a 45 pound bow with wide handle they end up 14-15 GPP and I obviously can’t lighten them up any further by working down the shaft, so nature was pushing toward a heavier GPP anyways.
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Are you hunting from a tree or the ground? I don't use the gap method so I can't help with any of that. I just look where the arrow will go and make sure my draw, anchor and release are perfect. 10 to 15 yards is my ideal shot and 20 is my max. Where I hunt 20 would be almost nonexistent because of the brushy terrain I usually hunt.
Over 10gpp would be a very heavy arrow for a 45# bow @26" so be damn sure you know your arrow trajectory.
Good luck with your hunting this season.
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my best deer hunting was with 20 yard, point on,,
I would suggest raise your anchor and get point on at 20,,,
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I’ll be hunting from some ground blinds but will use hang on treestand when I hunt state game land. Going to restrict shots to fifteen yards and under for now. The heavy arrow thing is something I dwell on. I heard about a couple stickbow guys shooting 16-17 GPP with 40 something pound bows, one did it to get a 25 yard point on for hunting and the other was trying to get maximum penetration under the Ashby heavy arrow theories and a quiet release for close quarters deer hunting. The difference is they are using efficient manufactured recurves and longbows, my selfbows are not going to be putting out the same energy. So I’ve been thinking of stepping up to make my bows keep more reflex or maybe lighten up the limbs. For now I don’t think there will be a problem as long as I keep the shot close. The arrow trajectory arc is probably pretty drastic but theres that trade off, small gaps with a heavy arrow and big differences in gap size from varying distances, or use a lighter arrow with a flatter trajectory . have larger gaps but lesser differences in the gap size at varying distances. I have long neck and it seems like my gaps were going to be pretty large so the heavy arrow worked well into the formula to shrink the gaps. If I shoot split finger the arrow point is somewhere down in the dirt where I can barely see it in relation to target. I might try split for shots 40 yards and over (face walking) to keep arrow tip just under target at all distances. Will see what type of penetration I get with this setup
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I like the idea of a twenty yard point on. I’ll play with raising the anchor. I just can’t lift up too far and get out of back tension and end up with a shoulder pull. I seem to have a long neck and face, some people have that short neck their shoulder line is just right below and they can really get that arrow up just below the eye and keep all the work in the back. I might be able to get away with a little more lift into a higher anchor.
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Thanks Bradsmith for the idea I got my 20 yard point on today by raising my nock point on the string. I didn’t want to change anchor because my back tension was good and left right impact on point so I read online about how some achieved lowering their point on and raising the nock point was one solution. I raised mine from level with arrow pass to 3/4” above which dropped the point on to between 20-22 yards. 25 yards I’m holding just top of the target spot (8” circle). Fifteen yard gap is fifteen inches, beautiful. 10 and 17 yard gaps were like 8 inch? I didn’t actually map this out exactly yet because I was running around experimenting. But the gaps are so small now, I’m going to be pointing somewhere right on to just below animals rib cage at hunting ranges. Couldn’t be more excited. Going to map out the gaps later on.
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Good explained self diagnosis of your procedure.You should do fine.
I watched a video of Clay Hayes the other day and realized through my archery shooting experience that I ended up shooting about exactly the way he explained at different distances etc.Through my own diagnosis.
In the past shooting with other bow makers/hunters at 3D shoots it was a benefit to me to get their comments.
I shoot heavy compared to some arrows myself also.With a lot of FOC weight on my shoot arrows.Firm believer in that too.There's no substitute for practice.
Most times I shoot from an elevated position and practice from there also a lot and always cant my bow to some degree.Practicing for me from all different uncomfortable angles and positions that can occur when a deer gets in that kill zone helps me too. From the ground on 1 knee at different angles also.
Going into the season after practicing that amount I like the feeling that if a deer gets into range he's on very thin ice.
Being patient for the deer to get their is all a part of the process of a successful hunt.
Good luck with your season.
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Thanks. Speaking of 3D shoot I went to one today, a trad get together near Troxelville. I shanked my first several shots horribly. I walked in pretty cocky with my 20 yard point on thinking I was really the man. I figured what could go wrong. My instinctive shooting friend was there and I was looking pretty bad. I had shot some shots this morning in the yard and target panic was starting to screw me up. I couldn’t hold the point where it needed to go and get to my trigger (I use a form of tab sear). I figured I would rest and maybe it would go away when I got to the shoot but of course it got worse. Fourth shot in or so I realized I was shooting perfect windage but just low on every shot. My friend even remarked on that. Soon after I realized I was misjudging the yardage, most shots we were taking turned out to be 25 yards and I was thinking I was within twenty. I still couldn’t get the point where it needed to be and hold it. So I changed up my internal verbal command and started nailing targets. My bruised ego was soothed but still I knew I wasn’t fully in control, I was jumping to target and releasing in one motion one some of the shots. We got done with the course and my friend left and I was still there and I decided to go through again. Same thing alone, couldn’t hold point on the spot. I was holding low, then jumping to target and releasing all at the same time. Just losing control, target panic. My verbal command was somehow weak, the focus wasn’t right. So I did two things, I said, I will let down if i don’t have control, and I changed my internal verbal command to “Point on”. So i got into holding, and focused everything I had on getting that point where it needed to be, on the spot, then just let it float there and watch that sight picture. No stress, just let it be what it is, ONCE I GOT IT ON THE SPOT. Then I let myself touch the tab trigger to release. Bam, problems solved. I was back in the driver seat. It’s a beautiful thing to float that point just below the belly or upper leg line at fifteen to twenty yards and watch the arrow sail into the kill zone. Almost felt like cheating. The hardest part is getting that point where I know the shot is assured to hit, and letting it be there for a split second without releasing. My subconscious wants to link that perfect aim to the release and take over for me. But once I can separate aim from release, just get the point on the spot and let it be there and focus on my release process (either a breathe in with full control or the tab sear), baby is it ever perfect. Total control, just pointing that thing where it needs to go, watching that sight picture and letting my instinct just hold the point where it needs to, and focusing on what I need to do to get to release as a separate task.
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For some target shooting is 1 thing and hunting shooting is another.Both have their degrees of difficulty.
Getting on the board with a deer kill at close range can relax most.There is still always a bit of excitement while the shot is coming around.
Having my routine of draw and release imbedded subconsciously through practice helps.
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I think the 3D shoot mimics hunting shot more. I’m very relaxed shooting my flat bag target in my flat yard where there’s no chance of losing an arrow, or embarrassment or wounding an animal. Luckily a recurve shooting friend of mine has a 3D setup and we’re going to shoot it this week. More chances to have to focus on my shot process and refine it
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Shot at friends 3Ds in the woods today. Most shots were around fifteen yards, the longest shots were twenty. This time almost all my shots were good kill hits, I only missed target three or four times. I have refined the shot cycle more to put some things like draw to load and lift into anchor out of my mental shot directions since they are easy to do and are coming to me automatically now, so now my shot cycle has only three verbal directions with a lot of focus and control. Even though I was shooting with someone who is a very good instinctive shot I held it together to make solid shots. So getting somewhere finally…
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work on your 5 and 10 yard shot alot,, the deer will hate you
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I changed my point on back to 25 yards. I lowered my nock points to level. I just wasn’t getting as good arrow flight. My fifteen yard gap is about fifteen inches. Today I did something for the first time maybe in my life, I strung my bow stood at 25 yards and drew and aimed at the 8 inch black circle I cut out of an oil bottle and shot the shot right into the center of it. I had a panic feeling to let the string go early when I saw the arrow aimed in the spot but I forced myself to finish the shot cycle. And it paid off big time. I went on shooting and it was the best session. I am really getting excited. This is going somewhere finally
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And that was a cold shot, there was no warm up of any kind.
On a separate note I’m thinking my fifteen yard and in shots will become more or less instinctively aimed. As in I will aim the arrow point but my subconscious will choose where to aim it, I will just let instinct take that over. I won’t worry over where it is aimed but will just trust it. So I’ll know roughly where to point but the exact dialed in spot to hit dead center, that’ll be instinct. Will see how this goes.
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You'll get it the way your going.If you think too much while your shooting it leads to bad shots.Your mind needs to be free and just the shooting routine followed through.It took me thousands upon thousands of shots to get there.
Every hunting season is different.If every deer gave me 2 shots I'd kill them all.....ha ha.
I guess I was lucky last year.3 arrows and 3 dead deer within 40 yards.
This year could be different.
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what distance were your 3 shots last year,,and congrats :)