Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Muskyman on September 25, 2022, 08:48:33 pm

Title: Osage trees
Post by: Muskyman on September 25, 2022, 08:48:33 pm
I just talked with a woman who answered a post I put out looking for Osage trees. She said she has 3 big ones.  In your experience are big trees likely to be a good source or a disappointment.. I’m going to look at them tomorrow.. the few big ones I’ve seen didn’t look like they had much in the way of bow wood but, I didn’t look at them like I might cut them completely down just looked at the limbs in them..  I’m hoping that they might have a few good limbs but I’ll probably have to take the whole tree to get permission to cut them, which is okay, I’ll cut the rest up for firewood..

Any thoughts
Thanks, Mike
Title: Re: Osage trees
Post by: Jim Davis on September 25, 2022, 10:21:44 pm
It depend on the growing conditions. If the tree had to fight for sunlight and water. it's likely to have thin growth rings, twists and turns. If it grew in the open, there will be limbs near the ground.


You'll just have to size it up when you look at it. But you are certainly correct that Osage makes good firewood.

Staves some distance in from the bark of a big log may have wider rings, but there will be a lot of work to get down to them.
Title: Re: Osage trees
Post by: Eric Krewson on September 25, 2022, 10:42:22 pm
I would limit my osage tree size to 25" in diameter or less, everything I have cut was less than that. I have cut 20" trees; you have a handful with one that size if you are back off the road and working by yourself. I have ended over ended log quarters over 100 yards to get to my truck on more than one occasion, I was hale and hardy back then. 

I could have cut several almost as big as this one, having cut for years I knew my limits and walked by and left them alone.

This monster is next to the parking lot at my gym and is at least 5' in diameter.

(https://i.imgur.com/3kNklAp.jpg)
Title: Re: Osage trees
Post by: Muskyman on September 25, 2022, 11:05:23 pm
Your picture looks like what I envisioned when I talked with her Eric. I’m hoping if it is and has some good looking limbs she will let me have them without having to take the whole tree..
She might be looking for someone to take these trees down and not have to pay to get them removed.   
I don’t want to get into a situation where I’m outgunned on these things.
I’ll look them over tomorrow and if it’s not worth it I’ll bow out gracefully.
Thanks for the input
Mike
Title: Re: Osage trees
Post by: Muskyman on September 25, 2022, 11:13:59 pm
Guess I should have posted that I was looking for these things a couple months ago. Got another message from someone that has some just a few miles from me.. Going to try and see them tomorrow as well..
Title: Re: Osage trees
Post by: Eric Krewson on September 26, 2022, 08:30:42 am
On the tree in the picture; the power company topped it about 20 years ago; it came back with a dozen or more sprouts that are now 8-10" in diameter, 8' long to the first branch in and perfect bow wood. I could probably get permission to cut some of them but they are 20' up, I am an over the hill old guy and still have more osage stored at home than I will ever use. There was a time when passing on osage I knew I could cut would drive me nuts, collecting osage had become an obsession for me.
Title: Re: Osage trees
Post by: Muskyman on September 26, 2022, 06:43:40 pm
Okay, so I went to look at the Osage trees and did end up cutting some.. you guys tell me. Did I bring home some firewood or do okay
Title: Re: Osage trees
Post by: Muskyman on September 26, 2022, 06:44:46 pm
Nother pic
Title: Re: Osage trees
Post by: Muskyman on September 26, 2022, 06:46:10 pm
And another
Title: Re: Osage trees
Post by: Muskyman on September 26, 2022, 06:51:39 pm
The bigger ones are 7-8 inches from bark to bark and the smaller one is about 4 inches
Title: Re: Osage trees
Post by: Eric Krewson on September 26, 2022, 07:28:11 pm
There are lots of good staves in that pile, you can split out several piggy back staves out of each piece.

Like this;



Title: Re: Osage trees
Post by: Muskyman on September 26, 2022, 07:45:02 pm
So split then down the middle through the inner wood and not down the bark side?
Like this in red
Title: Re: Osage trees
Post by: Muskyman on September 26, 2022, 07:51:24 pm
Also I sealed the ends of these with polycrylic. Is that okay to seal with or should I get something else?
Title: Re: Osage trees
Post by: PaSteve on September 26, 2022, 08:06:30 pm
Great score Muskeyman. Good luck with those staves. They look great!!
Title: Re: Osage trees
Post by: superdav95 on September 26, 2022, 10:18:17 pm
Ya they look good to me. 
Title: Re: Osage trees
Post by: Muskyman on September 26, 2022, 11:52:19 pm
I’m going to start taking the bark off some tomorrow.
What do you guys think the best thing to seal them with is.  I used polycrylic because I had a little sitting around but I’m going to pick something up for when I get the bark off.
Title: Re: Osage trees
Post by: superdav95 on September 27, 2022, 12:40:53 am
I use a brush on poly sealer as well water based.  I’ve had good luck with it.  A little goes a long way.  I put little more on the ends.  I’m sure there’s lots of different options you can use that’s cheap. 
Title: Re: Osage trees
Post by: M2A on September 27, 2022, 06:35:52 am
Looks like a great haul of staves you harvested, congrats.

Like Mr Outlaw I use tight bond on exposed backs and ends on staves with osage and locust. I was lucky this summer and went through a gallon of glue on about 50-60 staves. think it cost me 25$ but well worth it IMO. I spread it out my fingers, but you may find it easier and safer using some of those cheap foam brushes.

good luck with the project.
Mike         
Title: Re: Osage trees
Post by: Eric Krewson on September 27, 2022, 08:33:51 am
If you take the bark off the sapwood has to go as well, sapwood dries quicker than heartwood and will badly crack your stave even if the sapwood is well sealed.

The bark has wood wasp eggs in it, if you don't have time to get the bark and sapwood off all of your staves you need to spray the bark with an insecticide.  Powder post beetles are the worst, they go in the top of the stave and out the bottom, wood wasps work on the sapwood and first layers of heartwood first, if caught in time they can be stopped.

Start your belly split with something like a couple of screwdrivers pounded in following the grain you have marked. Some osage cores split off easily and cleanly, some run off to another grain and may make a thick end and a way too thin end.

Don't get greedy, it is better to have two good staves than to shoot for a third and have a split go cross grain and mess up a lot of wood.

4 coats of shellac on sapwood, where I live the sapwood always cracks if left on, after I had a bunch of ruined staves from being lazy, I never leave the sapwood on a stave if I take the bark off.



Title: Re: Osage trees
Post by: Eric Krewson on September 27, 2022, 08:45:26 am
On this stave the sapwood is so thick I am splitting it off like I would split off a piggy back stave.

(https://i.imgur.com/SeMgfX3.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/5M8zbQx.jpg)



Title: Re: Osage trees
Post by: Muskyman on September 27, 2022, 04:12:59 pm
I might try the screwdriver thing Eric   I’m not sure if I’m getting all the sap wood off. Here is a picture of one I did and sealed.. do I need to keep getting more off. I did the one I thought was the worst one first
Title: Re: Osage trees
Post by: Muskyman on September 27, 2022, 04:15:55 pm
I guess that orange wood in the picture above is what I should be shooting for
Here’s the picture of the one I did and sealed
Title: Re: Osage trees
Post by: Muskyman on September 27, 2022, 06:27:38 pm
Just quit peeling off bark and sap wood for the day, I think I have a blister,and this old body is really tired.. cutting n splitting trees all day yesterday and working out with my draw knife today. Going to try and get more done tomorrow.  Did find another place to get Osage right by my house and they have lots of trees and said I can cut whatever I want. I don’t know if that’s good or bad
Title: Re: Osage trees
Post by: Muskyman on September 27, 2022, 08:38:11 pm
It sure is. I can’t imagine doing the crazy number you did. I probably would have quit on um before I got finished.. I need some better stuff for splitting these I have. Tried splitting one today and it ran off to one side and it kinda jack up that stave some what. Think I saved it enough to get a 64-65 inch bow out of it. Not going to try anymore till I get some more wedges.
Worst thing about this is having to wait till they season. At least for me, I’m not a patient person.
Title: Re: Osage trees
Post by: superdav95 on September 27, 2022, 08:54:54 pm
I hear ya on that.  It’s tough work when your trying to be careful too.  It’s gonna be worth though. 
Title: Re: Osage trees
Post by: Muskyman on September 27, 2022, 09:16:33 pm
I hope so Dave. I just hope I can do them Justice. I already know I’ll never be able to build a bow like you and many others on here can. Some of the bows I’ve seen on here make me just shake my head. I’ll keep muddling away and maybe I’ll get one made I’m really happy with one of these days.
Title: Re: Osage trees
Post by: superdav95 on September 28, 2022, 12:06:08 am
MuskyMan. Very kind of you to say.  There is a world of knowledge on this forum and a good bunch of constructive criticism and kind words of encouragement.  I’ve been to other forums and not had the same treatment I get here.  You will see the difference yourself when you get to making more bows and need some feedback and pointers.  I’ve had a lots of great guys on here help me through my builds and it’s a great community. 
Title: Re: Osage trees
Post by: BowEd on September 28, 2022, 07:20:18 am
Nice haul of some good looking staves.
It's now that your building up some inventory of staves that you won't need to force dry any to be making bows.The hook is setting deeper into this bow making affliction.
I usually still cut 15 to 20 staves a year of various woods to keep my inventory up and have a dry stave to make a bow from any time I want to.
Title: Re: Osage trees
Post by: Eric Krewson on September 28, 2022, 08:39:52 am
You can leave a few thin islands of sapwood on the back of your staves and be just fine. I used a drawknife on about 250 staves through the years, I cut most of the sapwood off with my bandsaw now, much easier.
Title: Re: Osage trees
Post by: Muskyman on September 28, 2022, 09:07:38 am
Well it’s tough work but, I’ve always been willing to work. Unfortunately I think I might have injured my arm, maybe. It’s got a really weird feeling going on in the old bicep. Doesn’t really hurt but something isn’t right with it.. gonna try and get the one I was working on finished then see how it feels.. if it turns out I can’t use my draw knife and have to let these I have set till I heel up what can I put on them to keep the insects off till I can get back to them.. would borax work? Something else?
Title: Re: Osage trees
Post by: Muskyman on September 28, 2022, 09:38:15 am
Superdav95, tried to send you a message but it said that your inbox is full.
Title: Re: Osage trees
Post by: superdav95 on September 28, 2022, 09:50:45 am
Huh that’s weird.  I’ll have a look.  Try my email. superdav95@gmail.com. 

As for the staves if you haven’t got the bark off yet you’ll be ok with just sealing up the ends for a little bit like a week or so till you can go further I would say. When your arm feels better get back at it.  Sooner the better.  You’ll have an idea what your dealing with and what you got with the bark off and sealed up.  Best of luck and hope your arm gets better.   
Title: Re: Osage trees
Post by: Eric Krewson on September 28, 2022, 06:41:33 pm
I would soak the bark on staves I couldn't get to right away with diazinon, this would give me 6 months of bug free staves, after 6 months the protection would gradually wear off.

I learned the hard way not to cut more osage than you can handle in a week or two. I filled the back yard one time, debarking and removing the sapwood which had my hands swollen like sausages after a month's worth of working at it in all my spare time. I burned out and didn't care if the remaining staves ruined from neglect and they did.

This is a gag picture; I am pretending to be passed out from exhaustion from splitting osage for a month. The trunks in the picture are just part of what I cut that I ended up walking away from when I couldn't go on.



Title: Re: Osage trees
Post by: superdav95 on September 28, 2022, 06:55:10 pm
Lol. So true. Getting old sucks. Especially if your brain hasn’t caught up :)
Title: Re: Osage trees
Post by: Muskyman on September 28, 2022, 06:59:04 pm
That’s funny Eric but not far from the truth.  Now that log by your left arm is about the size of the one that I cut and I couldn’t hardly move it.. did you have help getting that or maybe a piece of equipment or are you just a stud.
Picture of the two I have done
Title: Re: Osage trees
Post by: Muskyman on September 28, 2022, 07:56:59 pm
Also got some more done today, arm wasn’t to bad.. split one of my logs and turned it into two staves..
I took my circular saw and scored it before I tried to split it..
Also tried a idea I had and some of you might laugh at this but it worked out pretty good.
I took a small chipping hammer and sharpened up a 1 inch bit I have for it and it peeled the bark and a lot of the sap wood of pretty easy.. saved me a lot of work with my draw knife and didn’t do any damage to the stave.
Title: Re: Osage trees
Post by: Eric Krewson on September 29, 2022, 09:18:48 am
You are OK scoring the log with a saw to split unless it has snaky grain, if you score a snaky grain log you may cause grain runout that will ruin a stave. I halved the bigger logs with a chainsaw so I could handle them, then split everything from there with wedges to make sure I followed the grain.

I am pretty sure I end over ended the larger log in the picture from a hedgerow across a field I couldn't drive to in my truck. Once I got it leaning against my tailgate, I could slide it in the truck. I had a Ranger pick-up at the time that was lower to the ground.
Title: Re: Osage trees
Post by: Muskyman on September 29, 2022, 06:19:49 pm
That’s impressive Eric, I’m might have been able to do something like that years ago but not now I don’t think. I was able to get a few more of these things cleaned up today and might be going to get a few more logs Saturday..

Title: Re: Osage trees
Post by: Eric Krewson on September 30, 2022, 08:51:56 am
My laying by the log picture is over 25 years old, I could do a lot more at 50 than I can now at 75.
Title: Re: Osage trees
Post by: Muskyman on September 30, 2022, 07:30:56 pm
Hear what your saying Eric. I’m almost 67 and nothing is easy like it used to be. I thought I replied earlier today but don’t see it on here.. I looked for diazinon on line and it appears to be banned in the States. Any other suggestions for insecticide to keep them off my Osage if I don’t get the bark off..
Title: Re: Osage trees
Post by: Eric Krewson on October 01, 2022, 08:14:00 am
Anything will do, I would buy some premixed stuff for home bug protection and treatment like you will find at Lowe's.

Something like this;

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Spectracide-Bug-Stop-Home-Barrier-1-Gallon-Home-Pest-Control/50040952
Title: Re: Osage trees
Post by: Muskyman on October 01, 2022, 08:56:27 am
Thanks Eric. I was looking at that yesterday and wondering about it.. I also remember seeing something where a guy put some kind of a fuel oil mixture on them. I’m not going to do that for sure..
I’m hoping I can worry my way through what I get and tuck them away to be reborn in a year or so..
Thanks for all your help

Mike
Title: Re: Osage trees
Post by: bradsmith2010 on October 02, 2022, 11:40:44 pm
looks like lots of bows,, congrats :)
Title: Re: Osage trees
Post by: M2A on October 03, 2022, 07:25:33 am
Almost positive the EPA made diazinon a restricted use product, so can't purchase without a license now.

When I get in over my head with too much to do and not enough time or just plane tuckered out I'll settle to debark 1 stave a day or every other day, so long as I keep at it even at a slow pace. Provided the ends are sealed and I can get them out of the weather till they get done. Like Superdave said, get the ends sealed and you should be good.

I do think removing the bark and sapwood is best. 1 time I had a load of hickory come in show up at the firewood processor that was cut that day. Spent days splitting and with the growing season just about to start knew I would not have time/energy to spend removing the bark. I researched boron products(like you stated above). Timbor and Boracare are made for wood boring pests. Forrestry forms have a some good information about those products, just google to find. On a side note Timbor seems to be the same active ingredent as borax and solubor(an agricultural micronutrient). Coverage is key, just like a diazinon. You can find the SDS info online but the boron products are as safe as anything and provided the staves stay dry it will remain active. Worked very well for me. Of course you always want to follow the label  :)

Good luck with the rest of your project, looks like some killer staves.
Mike                     
Title: Re: Osage trees
Post by: Muskyman on October 03, 2022, 10:00:57 am
Thanks Mike, I got all of them done and I sealed them with marine varnish 2-3 coats and tucked them away in my shed up in the rafters. I might try to get another log before it gets to cold and have one more go at it before I retire from Osage harvesting. Might get a hickory tree next year when it gets where you can peel them so I can keep the backs nice and clean. Found a tree out back that looks like a winner with 4-5 nice straight sections.. we’ll see
Thanks to everyone,
Mike
Title: Re: Osage trees
Post by: Pat B on October 03, 2022, 10:22:30 am
Periodically check your newly harvested and sealed staves to be sure they were sealed well. It would be a shame to come back next spring to find checking happening.
Title: Re: Osage trees
Post by: Muskyman on October 03, 2022, 12:55:37 pm
Will do Pat,  I put probably 3 or more coats of marine varnish on them but, I’ll check them every 3-4 weeks to make sure.  If I was to notice some checking should I cut it off and reseal them?
Title: Re: Osage trees
Post by: Eric Krewson on October 03, 2022, 07:45:11 pm
Is your shed ventilated or closed up? Seeing as how it is fall and not too hot you should be OK either way. The 4 ways I ruined staves when I was a rookie; putting them the attic in the summer, putting them in the car with the windows rolled up, putting them in an outside shed with all the windows and doors closed in an Alabama summer (I left the sap wood on also) and putting one behind the water heater to "quick dry it from green".
Title: Re: Osage trees
Post by: Muskyman on October 03, 2022, 08:34:11 pm
Shed is 16 x 26 has (2) 3 x 3 ft windows and one 4x4 window also has a ridge vent and soffit vents so it’s ventilated pretty good. I usually keep the windows open. At least for now. Haven’t been through a winter with it yet. I just built it this Spring. I could bring them into the house this winter if the cold is hard on them. I have a small fishing/hunting room I can tuck them away in if I need to.
I’m in southern Ohio an 40 miles north of Cincinnati