Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Kidder on November 20, 2022, 10:25:28 pm

Title: Fire hardening vs heat gun tempering
Post by: Kidder on November 20, 2022, 10:25:28 pm
Is there any difference in effectiveness between the two methods - fire hardening vs heat gun heat treating? Pros and cons of each method?
Title: Re: Fire hardening vs heat gun tempering
Post by: bassman211 on November 21, 2022, 12:03:59 am
You are opening up a can of worms. Some will say heat is heat. Others who have used it may say that it is more effective  in some ways. What I will say in all of this is that since using it to make  bows I see a marked improvement especially with hickory. Next question would be in what ways?  You can go green to finished in a much shorter period of time. Holds reflex, and makes a very snappy bow on par with most of my Osage self bows. Some say it will make hickory more impervious to moisture. That I can't speak to yet ;D. If you have never tried it you owe it to yourself to give it a shot. More complex to set up than taking a heat gun ,and heat treating on a form. JMO. You will get different opinions, so the best thing to do is to try it yourself.
Title: Re: Fire hardening vs heat gun tempering
Post by: superdav95 on November 21, 2022, 01:13:53 am
Kidder.  I personally prefer the hot coal fire pit method as I can do up to 4 bows at a time in a few hours.  I’ve done several also with a heat gun set up if just doing one bow or the wether is horrible.  I’ve found good results with both methods however it’s a little trickier to get a deep cook using a heat gun safely vs a fire pit.  With both make sure mc is below 10% before heat treatment.   A heat gun and get away from you if you don’t pay attention.  For that matter so can the pit.  The major advantage with the radiant heat using the fire pit hot coals method is less checking.  I find that the heat gun with the little blower dries out the wood too quickly and more prone to cracking or checking.  Just my experience with heat gun.  I found that about 3 hours over a hot coal pit with constant monitoring gives better results.  I use my hand to gauge the heat of the pit and raise and lower the bow to get a good cook.  Out side temps have a bearing on how long it may take for the bow to fully cook.  2-3 seconds over the coals before you have to pull hand away is a good temp to get a good slow cook.  Too hot too fast leads to problems.  You want your cook to penetrate almost all the way to the back getting lighter towards the back.  The only real advantage to the heat gun method is that it’s set up is easier and you don’t need a fire pit. It can get a decent cook in less time too.    Like I said good results can be had with both methods.  If your using a caul or form of some kind to put your bow onto make sure to prevent the heat gun blower heat dose t get directed to the back of the bow as it can give bad results.  Make a holder for your heat gun that incorporates a shield of some sort to prevent too much heat getting around the belly onto the back.  This brings up another advantage of the fire pit method.  With the radiant heat cook it less susceptible to this issue.  Hope this helps and let me know if any other details you need. 

Cheers.
Title: Re: Fire hardening vs heat gun tempering
Post by: superdav95 on November 21, 2022, 01:20:46 am
This is just my observations using both methods many times.  I don’t mean to tread on anyones preferred methods or open any cans lol.   
Title: Re: Fire hardening vs heat gun tempering
Post by: Muskyman on November 21, 2022, 09:22:14 am
Great topic for me and guys like me. I could ask many questions as follow ups about this. Going to start with one and try not to hijack Kidders thread. Seen lots of people using this on white wood bows. How about Osage and yew wood bows over coals?
Title: Re: Fire hardening vs heat gun tempering
Post by: Pat B on November 21, 2022, 09:56:22 am
I think the results would be probably pretty much the same so it would depend on what's the most convenient and effective for you. For me, it's using a heat gun and a caul in my shop. I don't build many fires outside and especially over the fall and winter when our wildfire danger is at the highest levels.
 I've use heat treating not only on whitewoods where it's most effective but I have also used it for osage and locust. I usually do this as I'm making corrections and adding reflex. I think it is very effective for locust, at least it is for me. With osage it may or may not be but I do it anyway as I make corrections. I haven't made many yew bows so I don't think I've used heat treating for yew.
Title: Re: Fire hardening vs heat gun tempering
Post by: Selfbowman on November 21, 2022, 10:28:01 am
I haven’t tried the coals only the heat gun . What distance from the coals is the bow . But yes about 300 degrees is what I get with heat gun about 2-3” away from the bow.
Title: Re: Fire hardening vs heat gun tempering
Post by: superdav95 on November 21, 2022, 11:15:45 am
Great topic for me and guys like me. I could ask many questions as follow ups about this. Going to start with one and try not to hijack Kidders thread. Seen lots of people using this on white wood bows. How about Osage and yew wood bows over coals?

I have heat corrected and heat treated yew and Osage but not to the same depth or duration as I would for white wood.   Heat treatment of wood is a very big topic and this could result in many related tangents. For example… I have also heat treated bamboo bows.  Bamboo could be a discussion topic all on its own!  I have done some pretty extensive testing and failure limits on bamboo.  What I’ve discovered is that there is a sweet spot for bamboo.  170 degrees for about 2-3 hours. 90 mins minimum  for a typical limb thickness.  More if thicker of course.  I’ve gotten away with little higher but it’s risky. Higher then 170 degrees the tension strength falls off.  Compression strength also increases also with bamboo but not to the same levels as white woods.    I use radiant heat initially to get moisture out slowly to avoid cracking and get a light brown cook on the belly.  Then I use convection oven to get the rest of the way for remaining hour or two.  I never use heat gun on bamboo.  It likes radiant heat better in my experience.  I’ve found good results with heat gun on white woods if moisture content is below 10%.  Once heat treated right it resists moisture Re absorption compared to before heat treatment.  As few yew I have used heat Gun to induce reflex into a bow but not a full blown heat treatment.  Hope this helps. 

Title: Re: Fire hardening vs heat gun tempering
Post by: Muskyman on November 21, 2022, 06:06:49 pm
I have watched a video about cooking white wood bows over charcoal. I tried it once on a bow I had already ruined by trying to tiller it when it was not dry enough. It seemed to help but it was really to late for that stave. I’m going to try again and have built a pit with concrete block and lined the bottom with fire brick. There is a video by Keith Shannon and Thad Beckum about fire hardening white wood bows you can buy online. I don’t have it but might get it. I don’t think I have the patience to do it with a heat gun.
Title: Re: Fire hardening vs heat gun tempering
Post by: superdav95 on November 21, 2022, 07:29:47 pm
Yes that’s a good bit of info by those guys.  There’s a lot of info that is not included in there that you will have to tweak and learn by trial and error.  That’s how I did it anyway.  I did my first few with charcol brickets like they did.  I’ve since moved to hardwood coals which last a little longer and more even heat I find.  I used large stones for my pit walls and dug down a bit.  I start my large fire in another round pit and use a shovel to transport my hot coals to my long pit.  The reading I get on my infrared heat sensor gun is anywhere between 250-350 degrees there abouts.  I concentrate my coals more on the working areas of the limbs to get a good cook.  I watch for penetration of light brown through the thickness of the limb creeping towards the back.  I’m one of the videos that I saw they use their hand as a heat guage to determine how high to set your bow above the coals to cook.  The majority of the brown happens in the last hour.  The first couple hours is drying slowly and getting the wood ready to deep cook.  If you have it too close too soon it will scorch the surface and not penetrate well and likley split of check on ya.  As they say,  “low and slow”.  I get my bow blank to just past floor tiller usually but have done them at brace.  I have done a fully shot in bow but don’t get as favourable results.  I find it puts strain on the bow trying to harden up stresses and compressed belly by fully shot in bow. The fibers of the belly are stronger k find if not stressed too much prior to heat treatment.   Hickory is pretty tough and will still shoot fine but speed is better if you wait.  Hope this helps and don’t hesitate to ask questions. 

Cheers
Title: Re: Fire hardening vs heat gun tempering
Post by: PaSteve on November 21, 2022, 08:53:35 pm
Really good information Dave.  I like the idea of building a separate fire then transferring the coals. Sounds like a good way to have better control over the fire hardening process.
Title: Re: Fire hardening vs heat gun tempering
Post by: organic_archer on November 21, 2022, 10:42:08 pm
I can only offer my experience, which isn’t to say either method is better than the other. Heat treating with a heat gun takes more hands-on time but gives you more control and less chance of damaging the blank, but also doesn’t do as deep of a treatment.

A bed of coals heats the whole bow all at once and really deeply. I do think it makes them hold more reflex and perform better, but it just dries them out sooo much. In my experience, when it goes well it goes really well, but it doesn’t take much to go too far and end up with firewood. It definitely seemed to exaggerate the chance of failure if the bow had anything more than slight character.

Went through a phase where I made a pile of fire tempered bows. Some really fast shooters were born in those days, but also lost a fair amount of premium wood tinkering with the technique. I’ve since switched back to less intense heat treatments with a heat gun, and less intense drying in a hot box if the blank needs to lose a little leftover moisture.

Edited for more detail.
Title: Re: Fire hardening vs heat gun tempering
Post by: superdav95 on November 22, 2022, 01:12:24 am
I can only offer my experience, which isn’t to say either method is better than the other. Heat treating with a heat gun takes more hands-on time but gives you more control and less chance of damaging the blank, but also doesn’t do as deep of a treatment.

A bed of coals heats the whole bow all at once and really deeply. I do think it makes them hold more reflex and perform better, but it just dries them out sooo much. In my experience, when it goes well it goes really well, but it doesn’t take much to go too far and end up with firewood. It definitely seemed to exaggerate the chance of failure if the bow had anything more than slight character.

Went through a phase where I made a pile of fire tempered bows. Some really fast shooters were born in those days, but also lost a fair amount of premium wood tinkering with the technique. I’ve since switched back to less intense heat treatments with a heat gun, and less intense drying in a hot box if the blank needs to lose a little leftover moisture.

Edited for more detail.

I agree.  I’ve taken a few past the safe point and paid the price.  Some deliberately and some just not being careful enough.  I’ve got some bows that defy logic though and still don’t know how they are still shooting they are so dark.  I would never send them out like that but they still shoot good.   Your also correct that it does dry them out a lot.  I found this to be a good thing though mostly so long as you seal them well and let them acclimate for a few days before finishing the tiller and shooting them.  I’ve jumped the gun before too and rushed it and snapped them as they are so dry and brittle.   As for character staves with a lot of sideways bend or snaky twisting I would use a heat gun for a lighter cook and perform some in shop manipulation to get them little better shape with heat.  I’ve had some that had some nasty propeller twist that I was able to virtually eliminate with heat treatment which is a nice feature.  Sounds like you e had some good results and good shooters with you’re process too. 

Cheers
Title: Re: Fire hardening vs heat gun tempering
Post by: Muskyman on November 22, 2022, 10:11:56 am
I’ll probably stick with the heat gun for my Osage staves for now and try the coals for white wood staves. I did watch a video Keith Shannon and Thad Beckum did where they took a small diameter hickory tree and cut it down and took it to about floor tiller, then clamped it on a form and cooked it dry over coals and made a bow with it in 12 hours. Shot it through a chronograph at almost 180 feet per second with a 10 grain per pound arrow. Now how long a bow like that might last I have no idea. I don’t plan on trying that but it did get me thinking about how fast I might dry out a hickory stave using heat from coals.
Title: Re: Fire hardening vs heat gun tempering
Post by: RyanY on November 22, 2022, 03:42:09 pm
I think practically there’s little to no difference from a performance standpoint given the mechanism of how it impacts the bow and all of the other variables that can influence performance. Impractically, the guys winning flight shoots are using heat guns as far as I am aware.  (=)
Title: Re: Fire hardening vs heat gun tempering
Post by: bassman211 on November 22, 2022, 08:30:03 pm
Arvin uses Osage 99 percent of the time if not all the time for flight shooting bows. I am talking hickory white wood. Try the  fire hardening process with that wood. Over all it makes a better bow, and in 3 days from green to finish. That is the can of worms I was talking about.  If I ever make a another hickory bow it will be with that process, and no other. Works best for me. It works well with white oak ,and elm ,but for me to a lesser extent.
Title: Re: Fire hardening vs heat gun tempering
Post by: darinputman on November 22, 2022, 10:41:03 pm
For me fire hardening hickory made a huge difference in finished bow performance. I'm not able to get the same results with a heat gun. I did not get the moisture resistance out of hickory I was hoping for by using the process though. If I had been able to get the moisture resistance I would have a hoard of  hickory staves.
   That being said everyones opinion and abilities vary.  I would love to be able to make a hickory bow, leave in in my shop with my osage bows during humid summers and it not get sluggish,. That is just not the case in my experience. I even used the massey finish on every fire hardend hickory bow I made just to make sure I gave it a fair trial. But they still took on moisture and became sluggish over time in hot humid storage conditions. A couple weeks in the dry box and they came back to life though.
    Firehardening is a great addition to my bow making arsenal and am fairly certain I will be using it in the future.
    One thing I learned from discussions on this subject is that some selfbowyers do not seem to think too highly of the process. I am not one of them I love it.
Title: Re: Fire hardening vs heat gun tempering
Post by: superdav95 on November 23, 2022, 01:34:03 am
Darin.  Results do vary depending on many factors.  I agree that it is a process that works.  I’ve seen the result also myself and know it works.  As for the issue of moisture I’ve also seen this too.  The massy finish is not one I’ve tried yet but will soon one day.  Moisture will always be an issue with hickory more then others in my experience.  This is minimized with a good slow deep heat treatment that is sealed adequately.  It will still loose some speed in humid climates but they do bounce back quicker then non fire hardened bows. That’s the real advantage with the process.  I’ve had yew and Osage loose speed and cast during same humid times of the year.  Bamboo also looses cast depending on the humidity.  It’s wood after all in the end and we can do extreme things to prevent this from happening to some degree but will never eliminate it entirely.  I’ve tried a few hickory bows with a deep heat treatment with both heat gun and coals and immediately saturated the belly with bees wax or pine resin pitch to seal it.  I’ve also experimented with heat activated resins like cactus juice with similar results.  There is a degree of trade off with adding resins and sealers into the pours of the wood.  It adds some weight and therefore reducing cast.  The resins do t penetrate all the way to the center of the bow limb either.  I’ve cut some in half and discovered this so you are left with still having the moisture issues affecting  cast.  One of these day I plan to build a long clear vacuum chamber and saturate a couple bamboo limbs fully then bake them and see the results.  It’s an experiment merely  of curiosity only to prove that moisture can be drastically eliminated with modern resins.  It still will ultimately slow down the bows cast in the end I believe.  I purchased the clear tubing long enough to build my chamber and have the resin so stay tuned for that one.   At the end of the day it’s huge improvement over the raw hickory or other white wood bows from my experience.  It comes down to preference in the end and availability of a pit as to wether guys heat gun or pit harden.  Good results can be had either way.  Both methods require the Boyer to experiment with the process to get it right for his environment.  Up here in Ontario Canada we have a lot of moisture.  That being said all of my white wood bows are heat treated to some degree.  In drier climates elsewhere it may not be as much of a benefit to heat treat.  Great discussion on this and seems like lots of guys out there are doing it with great results.  It’s opened a new world for us that don’t have a good access to Osage which is a good thing.   
Title: Re: Fire hardening vs heat gun tempering
Post by: simk on November 23, 2022, 08:54:39 am
I love my heatgun for quick corrections and love my quartz radiator for deeper treatments  :) I wouldn't strongly heatttreat yew or osage because its unneccessary. I would also assume the yew sapwood would snap on any bow after a long and deep heattretating over a fire.
Superdav: On Reply No 7 you mentioned your "convection oven". How does this oven lookalike? Do you have a oven which you can feed whole staves? :) I'm thinking about building something to heat temper my laminates before glueing them so I'm very interested in oven-ideas.
Cheers
Title: Re: Fire hardening vs heat gun tempering
Post by: superdav95 on November 23, 2022, 09:34:41 am
I love my heatgun for quick corrections and love my quartz radiator for deeper treatments  :) I wouldn't strongly heatttreat yew or osage because its unneccessary. I would also assume the yew sapwood would snap on any bow after a long and deep heattretating over a fire.
Superdav: On Reply No 7 you mentioned your "convection oven". How does this oven lookalike? Do you have a oven which you can feed whole staves? :) I'm thinking about building something to heat temper my laminates before glueing them so I'm very interested in oven-ideas.
Cheers

I just use my kitchen oven right now that has a convection feature and it goes to the desired 170 degrees.  The longer section of laminated boo are done with a single element burner in my shop for radiant heat.  I stopped using heat gun on my laminates after splitting so many of them.  I basically only use the convection oven for my short limb pieces for the 5 peice bows.  They just barely fit.  I’ve been thinking of building a convection tube heater that has a shiny stainless steel heat shield for my longer laminated glue ups.  Or just have an array of radiant burners or something but there would be cool spots between the burners.  The best solution to this would be one of those shop tube style radiant heaters.  They come in natural gas or propane powered.  I guess one could build a custom heater using heater coil similar to a kiln or something and make it long enough to suit their needs too.  For me right now the kitchen convection oven works pretty good and is fairly accurate.  For my longer laminated bows I manually run the belly over a single burner to very lightly toast it.  It’s done when I stop seeing steam come out the ends.  I’ve noticed too that I have to re flatten the belly as it develops a rounded convex shape after the heating I’m guessing from expansion when releasing the moisture.  My moisture meter won’t even register a reading below 4-5% and so I’ve resorted to weighing the slats before and after now.  It gives me a better idea as to water loss before glue up.  Hope some of this helps ya. 

Dave
Title: Re: Fire hardening vs heat gun tempering
Post by: superdav95 on November 23, 2022, 10:20:45 am
Here’s a long heater that might work. It’s inferred radiant heat.  No blower.  It’s electric patio style heater that I think might be an option.
Title: Re: Fire hardening vs heat gun tempering
Post by: Muskyman on November 23, 2022, 10:23:15 am
I was just thinking this morning while walking my dog out back about other ways to put heat to my hickory bow staves. I’ve got a couple of propane heaters that are about 100,000 btu each I use for heating job sites and my shop in the winter. I’d probably have to get a infrared temperature gauge or something to check the temperature at a given distance to know where to hang a stave but they might work, and I can adjust the temperature setting somewhat. I wouldn’t use it for much but it might work to dry out a hickory stave some. I like all the tried and true methods but I’ve said before I’m impatient and I’m willing to try other things to speed up my bow making process. At least with my hickory staves because they are much easier for me to get. They might help get a stave down to around that 10% MC so I can cook them on the coals. Osage might be another story.
Title: Re: Fire hardening vs heat gun tempering
Post by: simk on November 23, 2022, 11:20:08 am
thanks Superdav, I have that device - it's what I called quartz radiator in my post. Works great but it's only radiant heating from one side. I'm planning to make some kinda oven where I can make full heattreatments under controlled enviroment when I find the time. Basicallly a temper-box that can reach 180 degrees celsius. Basically a well insulated non flammable box. Wondering what temperture one could get using a few 100w lightbulbs in the box and weather the lightbulbs themselves would resist the heat? This would be the easyiest setup but maybe other devices needed to heat the box. cheers
Title: Re: Fire hardening vs heat gun tempering
Post by: Badger on November 23, 2022, 12:37:07 pm
     We have a lot to learn about heat treatment. The one thing I am most curious about is whether would it make a difference if I found an optimum temperature and then held it at that temperature for a specified period of time. For example, 260 degrees for 12 hours.  I have a feeling that we have a virtually unexplored science here and a good place for up-and-coming bow makers to make their mark. I know when they cure fiberglass fishing polls they go through a long process of slowly bringing the temp up and then slowly bringing it down in stages where they will hold it at each stage for a specified amount of time. I have a feeling that bow heat treating would be similar.
Title: Re: Fire hardening vs heat gun tempering
Post by: superdav95 on November 23, 2022, 01:39:04 pm
     We have a lot to learn about heat treatment. The one thing I am most curious about is whether would it make a difference if I found an optimum temperature and then held it at that temperature for a specified period of time. For example, 260 degrees for 12 hours.  I have a feeling that we have a virtually unexplored science here and a good place for up-and-coming bow makers to make their mark. I know when they cure fiberglass fishing polls they go through a long process of slowly bringing the temp up and then slowly bringing it down in stages where they will hold it at each stage for a specified amount of time. I have a feeling that bow heat treating would be similar.

That so funny!  Badger I was just reading this article I found this am.  I’ll post a link for those interested.  Now it refers to bamboo testing specifically but some of the theory would apply to other species also I imagine.  What I find interesting with this study is that I was not far off on my own testing. Such as it was.  I will continue to explore this and do more of my own testing to confirm some of this studies claims anyway but it’s an interesting read for those curious on the topic.  The study basically states that 160 degrees for 1.5hours is optimal.  My own crude tests were not far off but I found that 170 for 3 hours was optimal when it came to moe.  Compression and tension both increased more and dropped off at 180 and higher in my tests.  More moisture was extracted from the bamboo but it became too brittle even after letting it set for a day or two. It brings up some interesting discussion on duration of heat like you say.  I’ve played around with the times too but more can be tested in this area I believe.  Anyway interesting stuff. 

Dave

https://digitalcommons.calpoly.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1130&context=matesp
Title: Re: Fire hardening vs heat gun tempering
Post by: bassman211 on November 23, 2022, 03:28:40 pm
Applied properly heat is a great tool for bow making, and I have used it for other applications. Example... I bought a vintage 83 Kramer bass from a guy in church that was stored in a basement, and the neck had a bad warp in it . I loosened the truss rod, built a jig, and heat treated the rock  maple neck with a heat gun,and got the neck to go back to were it needed to be. Set the neck back up to suit me, and ended up making it one of my favorite bass guitars.
Title: Re: Fire hardening vs heat gun tempering
Post by: Muskyman on November 23, 2022, 06:24:17 pm
Just wondering what kind of infrared thermometer you have Dave. I’ve been looking at them online and pricing is all over the place.  Looking at one Milwaukee makes for around $100.00 but there are much cheaper ones around as well//
Title: Re: Fire hardening vs heat gun tempering
Post by: superdav95 on November 23, 2022, 07:00:44 pm
Just wondering what kind of infrared thermometer you have Dave. I’ve been looking at them online and pricing is all over the place.  Looking at one Milwaukee makes for around $100.00 but there are much cheaper ones around as well//

Here’s what I got.  Works good for me.  I used it for heat treat on my knives initially but works for bows too! 

https://www.amazon.ca/gp/aw/d/B085S6F85G?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title
Title: Re: Fire hardening vs heat gun tempering
Post by: Muskyman on November 23, 2022, 08:02:45 pm
I did put a little reflex in my stave today with my heat gun and did a little tillering to it
Title: Re: Fire hardening vs heat gun tempering
Post by: Muskyman on November 23, 2022, 08:04:59 pm
Picture of the tiller
Title: Re: Fire hardening vs heat gun tempering
Post by: organic_archer on November 24, 2022, 11:10:47 am
I’ll probably stick with the heat gun for my Osage staves for now and try the coals for white wood staves.

Yeah, whitewoods only. I don’t recommend heating osage over coals. Takes no time at all to crack it to pieces, and in some cases the extreme heat can rip apart the belly fibers. Don’t ask how I know, lol. The marginal benefit with osage, if any, isn’t worth the risk. It already responds well to mild heat.  )-w(
Title: Re: Fire hardening vs heat gun tempering
Post by: superdav95 on November 24, 2022, 03:03:28 pm
Very true.
Title: Re: Fire hardening vs heat gun tempering
Post by: Marc St Louis on November 24, 2022, 05:29:22 pm
There's really no difference in the end results between heat-gun and coals
Title: Re: Fire hardening vs heat gun tempering
Post by: darinputman on November 24, 2022, 08:26:24 pm
    "There's really no difference in the end results between heat-gun and coals"
    I imagine will vary depending on individual experience and technique. I can't get near the end results with a hickory stave using a heat gun that I can heating over coals.
    I can heat a hickory blank over coals to the point that I worry I won't get past the charred wood and into solid wood during tillering before hitting poundage. It simply amazed me. Osage blanks are toast if heated anywhere near this point. I stopped trying the process on osage as I saw no point, and wasted too many staves.
  I do realize that folks with your experience level Marc St Louis and even some with lesser experience may have the skills with a heat gun to get the same results. But not this bowyer, if I want the most out of a hickory stave it would be coals every time.
Title: Re: Fire hardening vs heat gun tempering
Post by: bassman211 on November 25, 2022, 03:02:10 pm
I have a hickory target  bow that I made a few years ago that is 35lbs. at 25 inch draw 64 inches long that was made from a 19 year old rock hard hickory  stave that was gifted to me by Will B. It ended up with 2 inches of reflex by using a heat gun ,and a 4 inch reflex form. Hard to work with, and hard on tools ,but made a really nice shooting target bow.  So ,yes it can be done, but not in 3 days from green to finished with the same results with a heat gun. At least not by me. If you are in a hurry to make a good solid hickory hunting bow in a 2,3,or 4 day period with green hickory wood it can be done with the fire hardening method. I don't think any body has proven yet that it can be done with a heat gun in that short of period of time.... so their a challenge for any body interested in giving it a shot.
Title: Re: Fire hardening vs heat gun tempering
Post by: Allyn T on November 25, 2022, 03:55:35 pm
From what I've seen they don't toast it over the coals until after they have dried it out over a fire. I'm sure you could dry it over a fire and then use a heat gun to temper the belly in just as short a time period.
Title: Re: Fire hardening vs heat gun tempering
Post by: bassman211 on November 25, 2022, 04:06:35 pm
Try that out , and post the results. I am really curious about that.
Title: Re: Fire hardening vs heat gun tempering
Post by: superdav95 on November 25, 2022, 05:01:50 pm
I’d be curious about that too actually.  The closest I’ve done to that was a partial cook over coals when I got rained out one time and had to finish up in my shop with heat gun. I had gotten to the point about an hour and half into it and hadn’t started browning much really.  It worked fine too and still have one of those bows and it shoots good. 
Title: Re: Fire hardening vs heat gun tempering
Post by: bassman211 on November 25, 2022, 07:55:48 pm
Your still using the first faze of the fire hardening  process which means you don't have to  wait a year, or 2 to use the wood, and worry about bugs, or applying  shellac on the  the back of the stave, and storing it properly to protect against checks, and you can take the bark off with fingers. All of which can be problematic when preparing staves. You just cut the hickory tree, and make the bow.
Title: Re: Fire hardening vs heat gun tempering
Post by: TimBo on November 27, 2022, 01:58:24 pm
So bassman, are you saying you can easily debark a winter-harvested hickory stave after the first stage of fire hardening?  Sorry for my ignorance - I haven't looked into fire hardening at all - but that would definitely be reason enough for me to do it.  (Although now I make sure to harvest hickory in the summer!)
Title: Re: Fire hardening vs heat gun tempering
Post by: bassman211 on November 27, 2022, 06:12:36 pm
No. Take the bark off after you cut the tree when it is green,and wet.
Title: Re: Fire hardening vs heat gun tempering
Post by: TimBo on November 27, 2022, 07:48:52 pm
OK, thanks - I misunderstood what you were saying.  That would be a pretty cool trick though...I swore off debarking winter cut hickory after the one time I tried it.