Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Bow of the Month Contest => Topic started by: OldBow on June 13, 2008, 09:12:56 am

Title: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: OldBow on June 13, 2008, 09:12:56 am
The majority of the members (now 1295) logon once and register as members never to return.   >:(Typically less than one hundred vote for BOM. I have brought this up before, but I wish the forums could be accessible without registering as new member.  Any thoughts out there? :-\
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: DanaM on June 13, 2008, 09:52:34 am
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink! Sorry Don but I see no way to increase voter turnout. If registering as a member wasn't
necessary how would you prevent someone from voting multiple times? I think the best way to increase the voter turnout is by enacting some changes
to the rules and leveling the playing field. If we only have 100 or so votes for BOM I think that in itself says that most of the members don't really care
about BOM hence the lack of votes. Only my opinion.
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: El Destructo on June 13, 2008, 10:15:48 am
I think it is sad that there is so little Participation in this every Month...it is something that everyone looks forward to looking at....but barely anyone will participate in....why.....Who can say....All I know is you are pretty correct on the One Time Looky Lou's...I went back and looked at the Posts per Calender Year of Membership....and it is pathetic to say the Least.There are STILL a total of 817 Members since 2006 that have posted less than 5 times at all....in any category.....141 from 2006......279 from 2007....and 397 for 2008. Heck there are 535 Members that have still never posted once..how can you fix something that no one seems to care about....besides "Us"....The Handfull of Members that do Post??? So We may still have 1295 Members...but there are at least 817 that are really doing nothing for Us at all...possibly more......And ONLY 132 Members with 100 Posts or More....so There Are Your "Core Members"
But Don.....I don't see anyone laying any of this on You....You do one hell of a Job...and I don't know anyone that would put any more into this Part of the Magazine than You do.......I wish I had some good advice ....but i cant think of a thing that would Help....if the Members cant help themselves by participation......JMO
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: Keenan on June 13, 2008, 10:22:33 am
 Hey Don,  First I just want to say thank you for all the hard work that you put into the BOM.  I was pondering this for a while and a thought came to mind.  
  What if we gave some incentive to vote, and at the same time gave incentive to be dillegent about your decision. If we did a year end gift to those that vote every month of the year, and a specail gift to the one that ends up with the best voting record of votes for the winning bows.  
  It may be to much hassle to do and I don't know if there is a computer program that could track that easily but just a thought. I'm sure that, as with all thoughts, that there are some draw backs but, just throwing out an idea.
 I would be willing to throw in something for the kitty.
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: Gordon on June 13, 2008, 02:29:25 pm
I'm willing to bet that the number of BOM voters is roughly equal to the number of active users of this site. If that is true, that means that the root cause of low voter turnout is the fact that we have a small online community here. That should not be a surprise to anyone. Consider the small percentage of archers that are committed to traditional archery (just visit your local archery range and you will immediately understand what I mean), then the small percentage of that group that prefer all natural bows, and then separate from those the few who are inclined or able to build their own weapons.   Now consider how many of this shrinking population have computers, are computer literate, are aware of the existence of this site, and are inclined to spend time on this site in lieu of doing other things that they enjoy (like building bows).

Frankly I'm amazed we have as many folks as we do...
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: deerhunter97370 on June 13, 2008, 02:47:42 pm
Hey Don,  First I just want to say thank you for all the hard work that you put into the BOM.  I was pondering this for a while and a thought came to mind.  
  What if we gave some incentive to vote, and at the same time gave incentive to be dillegent about your decision. If we did a year end gift to those that vote every month of the year, and a specail gift to the one that ends up with the best voting record of votes for the winning bows.  
  It may be to much hassle to do and I don't know if there is a computer program that could track that easily but just a thought. I'm sure that, as with all thoughts, that there are some draw backs but, just throwing out an idea.
 I would be willing to throw in something for the kitty.

Keenan sounds like fanticy bowyer like fanticy football. Joel
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: D. Tiller on June 13, 2008, 03:50:53 pm
Just checking how many posts I have! Ignore me!  ;D
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: D. Tiller on June 13, 2008, 03:51:48 pm
How many posts do I need to win a prize?  ;)
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: Keenan on June 13, 2008, 03:56:52 pm
  Joel, I don't know anything about fanticy football, but just trying to do my part and throw out ideas even if it's a pipedream. My wife says I'm a perpetual optimist and dreamer and I can't argu that one. Proof of that is my tendency to see a potential bow in rediculously crooked  stick.
 However Gordon has probably hit the nail on the head. And we are just seeing the reallity of the numbers of (actually active) members.
  Right now I'm just trying to cope,,,, >:( Because that really burst my bubble Gordon,,, ::) I thought we were the cutting edge of a massive movement that is sweeping across the world. A whole new generation of stone age throwbacks.   ;D
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: Keenan on June 13, 2008, 03:58:53 pm
 Tiller,Tiller,Tiller,   Who rattled your cage? ;D
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: Keenan on June 13, 2008, 04:02:00 pm
 Tiller, be constructive and inspirational and offer up a somethin special from W. Island ;) ;)
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: El Destructo on June 13, 2008, 04:12:42 pm
Tiller,Tiller,Tiller,   Who rattled your cage? ;D

                                                                                I DID!!!!!

                                                                                  Sorry

                                                                                     :P
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: Justin Snyder on June 13, 2008, 04:30:01 pm
Don, the forum is accessible without registering. 

I watch the people that register and activity from their IP before they register.  It appears that most register then leave .  I'm not sure why they register.  Part of them have done a search for wording that wasn't there. If you do you get an error message.  They think that if they register the search will work better.  But it doesn't and they don't come back. 

I think Gordon is right.  We are part of a small community.  About 115 people vote for selfbow each month. I think if you were to count the people that participate on the forum on a regular basis, you would find the number is very similar.  I have been trying to think of a way to increase voting.  I have come to the conclusion that there are very few who participate and don't vote.  Why are we trying to get people to vote who don't participate in the forum?  If they don't take the time to participate why would they take time to vote. I don't like voting incentives. If we bribe people to vote when they just don't care, they will log on and vote for someone that has been nice to them, or just punch a number and not even look at the bows.  That would only perpetuate the problem.   Justin
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: D. Tiller on June 13, 2008, 04:36:17 pm
Keenan, it doesn't take much to rattle my cage!  ;D
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: Keenan on June 13, 2008, 04:50:55 pm
Good input Justin, I think your right they would probably just puch a number.

 Tiller,,,,Get back in your cage! >:D
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: sailordad on June 13, 2008, 05:01:21 pm
first i am going to state that this just my opinion so as not to upset anyone,cause it seems everyone is getting upset over everything on here lately.


i dont think bribing people to vote or giving out prizes for who voted the most during a year would work either. the people one here that already do the voting would be getting all the prizes or whatever you want to call them.  i dont know what was meant by "there are 817 members who dont do anything for us and only 132 members with 100 or more post"
now does it really matter howmany post an individual has on the site? and just what should a member be "doing for us"?  

i havent been a member all that long,i have learned alot from the kind folks on here,i personally would be willing to do "something for us" if i was skilled enough to actually contribute more,but i am NEW to all of this just like so many members are,so what is it you would like us to do for you? would you like us to show off our lack of skills and our ignorance of the craft.well if thats what you want,i think we already are doing that. or is it just an ego thing? do you want us to praise your every achievment on your projects. when i joined this forum i thought it was here for us newbies to learn from the skilled craftsmen already on the site.so if thats what you want then here goes.
Damn you are the greatest bowyer ever,everything you create is just completly perfect in every way.someday i want to be just like you.

there does that fill the void in your ego for ya.?

i very seldom vote for BOM. not that i dont like the bows that are posted. i just dont feel it is necassary to vote every month. i vote in months when i feel there is  a bow that really inspires me or one that really just blew me away when i first seen it. i do feel that the BOM is nothing more than just a popularity/beauty contest of bowyers and bows.

i will however post when i have something to show,or a question to ask about something i'm working on or i have an opinion i feel that needs to be voiced,such as this post.

theres my rant,if it upsets anyone i'm sorry and ifn no one ever wants to reply to my post and or questions again it really wont bother or upset me,it will show me however just how juvenile and childish people really are(like i think most people in the world can be any how and why i am such a loner)



ok enough of that.   i hope everyone has a good day/night or what ever.

                                                                                      peace,  
                                                                                            tim
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: DanaM on June 13, 2008, 05:52:09 pm
Tim I admire your courage you decided to stand up and be counted and for that I say thank you :) You are 100% right BOM is a popularity/beauty contest
and the good ole boy factor plays into it. And yes its a contest regardless of what some of you think. I also believe there are some people on here that only post bows to in order to win BOM and add to their ego and their trophy case :o I believe many good suggestions were made on the other thread before Sarah locked it to further comment. PA's management should perhaps pay attention to the wishes and desires of the membership. Justin many times you have told me that BOM is a popularity contest perhaps as a administrator its time that you also take a stand. Sarah please don't lock this thread down Don asked and he runs the BOM contest, perhaps its time someone listened. And yes I realize I most likely won't have an account come morning but so be it, I think everyone should be able to voice their opinion without repercussions.

Just My Opinion Right or Wrong
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: Dano on June 13, 2008, 06:06:38 pm
They are going to have to bribe me to vote for a president of these united states this year, but I don't see that happining. ::)

I think the BOM is fine if we just hide the results till after the voting deadline.

Come on Mullet, lets hear from you!!! ;D
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: DanaM on June 13, 2008, 06:15:45 pm
Dano eddie is off hunting pigs, lucky him ;D Hiding the vote totals was also one of my suggestions ::)
Both as a member and as a moderator :D

Here's a question for all of ya: Is BOM a contest? yes or no?
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: Dano on June 13, 2008, 06:27:53 pm
If there is a reward/award it is a contest.
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: DanaM on June 13, 2008, 06:32:00 pm
Dang Dano I do believe I made that point ::) The reward is a hat and a write up in PA hence its a contest ;)
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: Keenan on June 13, 2008, 06:33:31 pm
 Come on guys lets not hash this again. The way I read the post Don was just asking for ideas to help inspire people to vote. I was just offering and idea with the heart of donating something like a bow to try to help encourage people to take part. And at the same time prompt others to help build this community.
  This is a site for new people to learn and BOM dosen't take from that at all. It's a proven fact that if people dedicate time into something they will take more ownership and responsibility in it.
  There's nothing childish about looking for ways to help something be better and giving things away to inspire people dosen;t mean that you are bribing or bidding for there vote's.  
  If some of the bowyers on here want to contribute an item to give at the end of the year how is that bribing. no one would have to know what came from who and the voting would be over anyway.
 
  Sorry Don, I guess in this day and age it's hard to try to do something nice without qetting slammed.

 
 
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: Marc St Louis on June 13, 2008, 06:40:56 pm
The majority of the members (now 1295) logon once and register as members never to return.   >:(Typically less than one hundred vote for BOM. I have brought this up before, but I wish the forums could be accessible without registering as new member.  Any thoughts out there? :-\

Don
I would not want anyone that is not a member to participate in BOM or any other action inside this board except to view.  The registration procedure is involved enough to make it too much of a bother for those that don't have a committed interest.  Then there's the spammers.  No I like it the way it is.

Dana
PA does pay attention to its members but there is a limit.  In the end they pay the bills and therefore they should be in control. Isn't that the way it is in every business?

The way I see it.  If the win is had by any means other than an honest one then the winner has a marred win.  This system is far from perfect and intelligent people should realize that and make allowances for it.  Anything else indicates slightly neurotic behavior.  :o
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: DanaM on June 13, 2008, 06:44:32 pm
Keenan I admire your optimism, and yes Don asked for suggestions to increase voting. Offering a prize for voting isn't the answer, people will vote if they chose
and I did offer a suggestion for increasing votes and that is to change the contest to be more fair. I don't don't believe anyone is slamming anyone or BOM. We are offering our opinions plain and simple and as such they should be considered and not just disregarded. We the members make this site what it is and as such all of our opinions should matter not just a few members opinions. As I already pointed out I'm pretty sure most people on here don't really care about BOM one way or another and this fact is proven true by the lack of voting. Once again just my opinion right or wrong.
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: DanaM on June 13, 2008, 06:46:29 pm
Marc your right PA pays the bills and its their site to do with as they please. I stand corrected.
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: sailordad on June 13, 2008, 06:56:05 pm
 in any type of contest there are winners and losers,losers get jealous of the winners over time. like in anything,there are those on here that are more skilled(and even i admire them)than others are.myself i am very unskilled yet. i dont build any bow with the intent or even a thought of BOM,i do look at all the post for it each month. if im inspired ill vote.

i dont see why people that do join the site and only visit once or twice are scrutinized for it. as long as people are looking even once or twice they know it exist.
maybe they dont have continual access to the net. i have been to alot of sites and looked around once or twice,and decided it was not for me.never felt i had an obligation to be on a site all the time. i spend most of my none work related time on this.this i do by choice. because i like trying to build bows. i havent found another site that gives someone like me a place to seek advise and hopfully gain wisdom from the ones that are skilled. i didnt join or come back because of BOM.i dont feel it should be dropped either. some tweaking may be necessary.but i will continue to come back to look at post of others work to get inspried by,ask qustions to learn by regardless.


just my very humble thoughts and opinions

                                                                      peace,
                                                                            tim
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: Marc St Louis on June 13, 2008, 07:07:59 pm
I have said this before but I will say it again.  I asked Don many years ago to stop putting my bows in BOM.  He refused to do so.  For awhile I stopped including a full draw pic so that it would give Don no choice  :)
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: Justin Snyder on June 13, 2008, 07:21:14 pm
and just what should a member be "doing for us"? 
                                                                                      peace,   
                                                                                            tim
Tim, you are contributing. Questions by new members often bring facts or opinions to the attention of everyone, that experienced bowyers have overlooked. I often learn something that I never would have thought of.  In reguards to the accounts that were deleted, they were people that had for the most part never logged on after registering.  No accounts were deleted that have even logged on in the last 90 days. Some accounts have never posted but have logged on so they were not deleted.  I agree with you that we should error on the side of caution when deleting accounts and so does PA. 

Justin
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: D. Tiller on June 13, 2008, 07:25:43 pm
Guys, in the end it is what Primitive Archer as a magazine decides. A business is a business after all and they are out to make a living. If it enhances the readership and number of people reading and adding articles to the magazine then they will, in the end, continue to do BOM. Personally, I think the voting should be left up to and impartial committee of voters that do not have a stake in the game but have built bows for a very long time and have a bundle of knowledge about it under their belts. But it should not be allowed to become a popularity contest.

But, as I said before its the people who own the magazine and the website that will make the final decision and not us. We can put our oar in the water but we dint steer the ship.

In any event I will continue to make bows and not participate in the BOM since I don't like any form of competition except with myself. I find it to be decisive and frustrating to those who are just beginning to enter any hobby or sport. Don't get me wrong, there are good forms but when it comes to something we love to share making it into a competition seems to turn it into a less of an open environment for the exchange of ideas.  

How about the magazine itself pick and choose the bow it thinks is the best of the month?  Seems more fair to me all around and takes the competition out of it.

David T
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: sailordad on June 13, 2008, 08:06:11 pm
thats sounds like a sound and fair idea there.

the magazine could pick a fair and impartial and anonymous voting commitee made up of what could be considered expert bowyers. it is the magazines web site and "contest". this way they can be the ones to decide if another experienced bowyer or a first timers bow is better. they could keep it from being a popularity contest maybe not a beauty contest,cause some folks just like to make em pretty. i prefer to make em work first,i'll worry about pretty after i feel i can make em.

i think this idea may just be on the right track.

                                                        peace,
                                                              tim
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: Keenan on June 13, 2008, 09:33:17 pm

 Tiller stated;  I think the voting should be left up to and impartial committee of voters that do not have a stake in the game but have built bows for a very long time and have a bundle of knowledge about it under their belts. But it should not be allowed to become a popularity contest.

 Guys I said this on the original thread "Lets fix the problem", guess not to many people read it and went to complaining and it got lost in the thread. I even gave a good guideline on how to keep it impartial.

But as I stated in the last post. This thread is about "how to get people involved"
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: Hhop on June 13, 2008, 10:02:11 pm
Do not jump to the conclusion that just because a member does not post often, that they do not vote in the Bow of the Month contest. I personally see no problem that needs to be fixed. I have been a member since 1999 and through every change the board has gone through since then; was here when it was closed to those that did not subscribe, and registered after the last change when most of the folks that are here now came pouring in. Unfortunately all past totals for posts were wiped clean; and I just have not posted much since the lastest change, but do check in here somewhat frequently.

I remember well when Oldbow proposed the contest quite a number of years ago. It was certainly not meant to be the competitive contest that more recent arrivals have made of it. He does a fantastic job, but I would think that he would become quite frustrated at all the whining over what he started as just a fun little showcase. It pleases me to see that the handfull of members that are still here from those days, also have a sense of the history of what transpired and express similar opinions.
My vote is that it is working just fine, just as it did from the beginning. Thanks for all your work over all these years Oldbow.
Harold
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: Coo-wah-chobee on June 13, 2008, 11:10:05 pm
Like was once said " Ifn it aint broke DONT fix it !" Foks your not gonna stop it bein' a popularity er beauty contest unless y'all end it ! Thats the reality of it to my way of thinkin'. My 2 cents with a bit of change back ! ;) ;D....bob
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: Gordon on June 13, 2008, 11:29:48 pm
I'm not sure I understand where the notion that BOM has turned into a beauty/popularity contest is coming from. I can honestly say that I can't think of a single BOM winner that did not seem deserving for one reason or another - and it didn't seem to me like the popularity of the bowyer had anything to do with it. And yes, most if not all of the winning bows have been attractive. Which is as it should be - anything that is well designed and crafted is inately beautiful.

There are some here who have no use for competition. I personally believe that a bit of friendly competition is a healthy thing. But I respect those who hold a differing view and have no desire to impose my values on them. But I ask the same of them in return.

I don't think there is anything wrong with BOM as it is. And really, in the grand scheme of things, BOM is small potatoes - it's purpose is just to create a bit of fun. I hope we can all regain perspective and move on to important things.
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: FlintWalker on June 13, 2008, 11:30:05 pm
If you didn't have to sign up as a member to see the pictures, I don't think you would see such inflated membership numbers.  I like to look at what i'm reading about, as i'm sure most people do.
To post a comment, vote or start a thread, I think one should be required to be a member, but not to simply look around.  
 Lots of people are apprehensive about signing up for things. I think if PA would let those people see what we have to offer without having to sign up, we wouldn't have so many inactive members and the ones that do sign up would be more likely to contribute to this site.  Saw Filer
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: DanaM on June 14, 2008, 03:57:01 am
If you didn't have to sign up as a member to see the pictures, I don't think you would see such inflated membership numbers.  I like to look at what i'm reading about, as i'm sure most people do.
To post a comment, vote or start a thread, I think one should be required to be a member, but not to simply look around.  
 Lots of people are apprehensive about signing up for things. I think if PA would let those people see what we have to offer without having to sign up, we wouldn't have so many inactive members and the ones that do sign up would be more likely to contribute to this site.  Saw Filer

Now that is a genuinely good idear Shannon. I'm done with this and will keep my opinion to myself, that should please some of ya ;)
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: Andrea S on June 14, 2008, 11:23:28 am
I know that after reading everyone's posts on this thread, it seems as if the subject has been gone through with a fine-toothed comb, but I have just a few things to offer up. I consider myself a somewhat level-headed person, so maybe my two cents will be worth the copper.

BOM, to me, is quite enjoyable as a review of what the folks on this board have crafted. Don does a fantastic job of organizing the links and descriptions of the bows to be voted upon, and when I vote, I take the time to look at all the pictures of each one, as well as skimming some of the other user's comments on their observations. I don't do this to follow popular opinion; rather, I lean a bit on the expertise of the more experienced bowyers to pick out nuances in tiller and other factors that I don't quite have the eye to pick out in the pictures myself. I missed voting for BOM this month and I'm sorry I did, but one thing that really helped as a reminder was the mass PM that Don sent out one month. I've been real busy with work and moving into a new apartment, so I haven't been able to visit these forums as religiously as I did at school. A little note in my email box (I've set my account preferences so that PM's are also emailed to me) is great to say "Hey, check out what the awesome folks on this forum have done this month!"

The unfortunate reality of BOM is that by its very nature, it has to be a beauty contest. It's rare that anyone who votes for BOM actually has a chance to shoot any of the bows they're voting on, unless of course it's the one they made (shame on you for voting for yourself!  :P) Now, I know the term "beauty contest" has a lot of negative connotations, but that's truly what it is: a contest based solely on images. It is entirely possible that a bow made by one person with a beautiful tiller and fancy tip overlays and a complex handle wrap could shoot like a beast and have handshock enough to make you cringe, while another bow that's done a little more roughly with not as nice a finish and a not-so-perfectly-arced tiller could shoot far sweeter and wonderfully fast. The second bow would have our vote if we could shoot it, but since all we can do is look, we vote for the first one. This does not means BOM is good or bad; it simply means it's what it is.

It's my personal, charged, biased, and highly opinionated opinion that we shouldn't stop contests just because peoples' feelings might get hurt. That kind of 'political correctness' is ridiculous and is no way based in reality. Nothing in life is ever truly fair, and for every situation, there's bound to be someone who can find a problem with it. Hurt feelings or perceived unfairness is no reason to stop what is, in truth, a very friendly and interesting display of a month's worth of fine craftsmanship, where people get to cast a vote to pick which one they liked best. The wonderful thing about this democratic process is that if you don't want to vote or don't agree with the whole deal, you don't have to participate.

As far as getting more people to vote for BOM, I don't think that's really a concern. The people who vote are the people who care enough to take the time to review those bows. Quantity does not always mean quality, and I think it's more valuable to the contest itself to have a handful of well-considered votes rather than several hundred hastily cast.

Take all this with a grain of salt. I'm only 19.
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: radius on June 14, 2008, 12:19:45 pm
I think the trouble that Oldbow has with this contest (at least in this thread) is the RATIO of voting and non-voting members.  I think that's just something he might have to learn to live with.  If people can only see the pictures if they are members, then maybe they will join just to see them, as someone said, and then never come back because they are only marginally interested.  That's fine.  Let them go.

I believe the membership was recently purged.  That's fine, too:  why bog down the system with a bunch of defunct listings?

If the RATIO is that important, then perhaps the moderators should be more stringent about the membership.  If a person does not post for 60 days, he's outa here.  If he does not even log in for 30 days, he's outa here.  It's no big deal:  takes 2 seconds to sign back in; doesn't cost anything. 

BUT...all this will do is narrow the gap between voting and nonvoting members, because it doesn't cause any more people to participate. 
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: koan on June 14, 2008, 01:32:10 pm
I think you nailed it...your wise beyond your years...Brian
I know that after reading everyone's posts on this thread, it seems as if the subject has been gone through with a fine-toothed comb, but I have just a few things to offer up. I consider myself a somewhat level-headed person, so maybe my two cents will be worth the copper.

BOM, to me, is quite enjoyable as a review of what the folks on this board have crafted. Don does a fantastic job of organizing the links and descriptions of the bows to be voted upon, and when I vote, I take the time to look at all the pictures of each one, as well as skimming some of the other user's comments on their observations. I don't do this to follow popular opinion; rather, I lean a bit on the expertise of the more experienced bowyers to pick out nuances in tiller and other factors that I don't quite have the eye to pick out in the pictures myself. I missed voting for BOM this month and I'm sorry I did, but one thing that really helped as a reminder was the mass PM that Don sent out one month. I've been real busy with work and moving into a new apartment, so I haven't been able to visit these forums as religiously as I did at school. A little note in my email box (I've set my account preferences so that PM's are also emailed to me) is great to say "Hey, check out what the awesome folks on this forum have done this month!"

The unfortunate reality of BOM is that by its very nature, it has to be a beauty contest. It's rare that anyone who votes for BOM actually has a chance to shoot any of the bows they're voting on, unless of course it's the one they made (shame on you for voting for yourself!  :P) Now, I know the term "beauty contest" has a lot of negative connotations, but that's truly what it is: a contest based solely on images. It is entirely possible that a bow made by one person with a beautiful tiller and fancy tip overlays and a complex handle wrap could shoot like a beast and have handshock enough to make you cringe, while another bow that's done a little more roughly with not as nice a finish and a not-so-perfectly-arced tiller could shoot far sweeter and wonderfully fast. The second bow would have our vote if we could shoot it, but since all we can do is look, we vote for the first one. This does not means BOM is good or bad; it simply means it's what it is.

It's my personal, charged, biased, and highly opinionated opinion that we shouldn't stop contests just because peoples' feelings might get hurt. That kind of 'political correctness' is ridiculous and is no way based in reality. Nothing in life is ever truly fair, and for every situation, there's bound to be someone who can find a problem with it. Hurt feelings or perceived unfairness is no reason to stop what is, in truth, a very friendly and interesting display of a month's worth of fine craftsmanship, where people get to cast a vote to pick which one they liked best. The wonderful thing about this democratic process is that if you don't want to vote or don't agree with the whole deal, you don't have to participate.

As far as getting more people to vote for BOM, I don't think that's really a concern. The people who vote are the people who care enough to take the time to review those bows. Quantity does not always mean quality, and I think it's more valuable to the contest itself to have a handful of well-considered votes rather than several hundred hastily cast.

Take all this with a grain of salt. I'm only 19.
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: Bowbound on June 14, 2008, 03:06:32 pm
I haven't posted a lot, still voted but yet i do surf the forums daily and am active. I think that many people are almost intimidated by the standard and feel that they are not in the correct position to post because they think athers know more about the craft. Those that post more.

just my 2 cents
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: El Destructo on June 14, 2008, 04:15:17 pm
I haven't posted a lot, still voted but yet i do surf the forums daily and am active. I think that many people are almost intimidated by the standard and feel that they are not in the correct position to post because they think athers know more about the craft. Those that post more.

just my 2 cents

Well they...and you included should not feel Intimidated with this Bunch....there isn't a Bowyer on here....that would not go out of His way to Help anyone willing to Listen and Learn this craft....there may be a bunch of family squabbles on here every once and a while....but what Family doesn't argue??? If you ever need information about anything Primitive....whether it be Bows or anything else....there will always be someone that will lend a hand to help you out....so don't be so quiet...have a Question ....Please Ask........JMO
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: Justin Snyder on June 14, 2008, 05:23:01 pm
I haven't posted a lot, still voted but yet i do surf the forums daily and am active. I think that many people are almost intimidated by the standard and feel that they are not in the correct position to post because they think athers know more about the craft. Those that post more.

just my 2 cents

Well they...and you included should not feel Intimidated with this Bunch....there isn't a Bowyer on here....that would not go out of His way to Help anyone willing to Listen and Learn this craft....there may be a bunch of family squabbles on here every once and a while....but what Family doesn't argue??? If you ever need information about anything Primitive....whether it be Bows or anything else....there will always be someone that will lend a hand to help you out....so don't be so quiet...have a Question ....Please Ask........JMO

And I meant what I said before.  We like new guys and we like questions.  We all learn from every question no matter how silly someone thinks it is.  Please ask away if you have questions and feel free to speak up when you have something to add.  Justin
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: GregB on June 16, 2008, 06:19:48 am
Quote
I post my bows for constructive critisim. i don t have a problem with them being in bom. i know i dont have much of a chance but its fun.  once i got 1 vote. 1 real vote and i was very happy someone else actually liked it

i would like to see some of this fixed but i dont want to do away with bom i look foward to it.  and life is too short to get upset or mad.  im only 14 but i may not be typing here tomorrow. that one of the reasons i almost never get mad and if i do i dont stay mad. i dont like being in a bad mood

dont worry.... be happy 

I remembered this young man's comment from the other thread and felt it was worth all of us reading again. I think we could all learn a lesson and would be better off if we followed David's logic. We're all individuals and as such there will always be something about this forum that doesn't meet everyone's approval. I think PA is making some changes to the BOM, so we should all just take a few deep breaths and calm our nerves and see what changes will be made...I'm sure they will be for the better.

I think Shannon made a good point about new folks having to register to view pictures...probably is largely responsible for a large but inactive membership. I feel like even though a lot of folks may be inactive, hopefully many of them are still gaining information just from reading and viewing the posts. That's a positive note to me! Let this forum be whatever the individual wants it to be for themselves. For some it's communicating, and posting, and voting. For others it is only viewing, but over time and gained experience that could change for some.

"What will be will be" I for one will try and take David's advice and... "not worry...be happy!". ;)
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: Pat B on June 16, 2008, 07:16:45 am
Greg, I knew David was a wise old sage from his first post.  8) The rest of us chronological oldies should heed his wise advise.     Pat 
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: cowboy on June 16, 2008, 07:49:05 am
Well, that's a lot of reading. I have been aware of this site for about a year and a half now. Joined up to learn, then started chatting and getting to know everyone, and eventually met some in person. I'ts been a grand adventure and a lot of fun, and I consider most to be my second family. The monthly BOM to me is just a part of it "fun". I'm like others - it is what it is. Some will vote for purty, some will vote for a buddy, some will vote for function. Like Gordon said a little friendly competition is a healthy thing. I personally don't consider the BOM to be broke so doesn't need to be fixed, but if it's tweaked in some way I'm not going to loose any sleep over it - I have bigger badder things to worry about in life. The contest and this site to me is all good :).
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: Bent Rig on June 16, 2008, 08:59:52 pm
Like some have said -one must be a registered member to vote , don't show any numbers as to how the voting is going til a winner is picked . Hey how about this for an idea - one more category - one say for a "true" primitive bow - one of just "whitewood" nothing exotic - with say the most one can put on the back if disired at the most would be nothing or possibly sinew , now that to me is the ultimate primitive bow . Because what I have seen so far on this site and in the magazines are some very beautiful bows made by some extremely skilled members and from these images , I've have gotten some very good ideas and that's all fine and part of the learning and sharing part of what PA is all about . But the last time I checked the forum was called "primitive Archer " and I doubt you would see MOST of these "pretty" bows way back when. I ask all of you to go back as far as you can in th BOM and you'll see what I mean - see how many times(count) a "certain" wood has won compared to the rest , there is a definite mentally going on  , so if a certain wood is used , your chances of winning is greater - you do the math - stats don't lie !  Everything can be improve no matter what it is - as far as competiton goes - it's all good in love and war - closing a thread that has been civil is hypacritical for a forum - last time I checked forum = medium for open discussion , so I don't understand why the other thread was shutdown . I also don't think a year ending prize should be given out , a hat and a piece in the mag is a very nice prize in itself . I  don't particapate very often- but I have been trying to partiapate in the voting for BOM  , but I get on the site at least once a day and go through the new posts - most of my questions are answered through other members questions and I'm also fortunate to be learning through a very skilled bowyer the last couple of years in my local area . I enjoy the site and whenever I have had a question - the membership comes through and I'm thankful for that -as far as getting more people to vote - just like any club - you'll only have certain people(the core) who will particapate all the time . Just my 2cts  ;)
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: bcbull on June 17, 2008, 09:35:42 pm
 guys i think a lot of the 817 that sign in once and dont come back  are mostly guys looking for information   iv noticed   you  have several other sites out there  trade gang , paleo plant ,bowyers den , bowyers journal  to name a few  ....... and you may see some of em here then on trade gang or paleo planet askin the same qustions they post if they do post  so relley i think a lot of em are info seekers pickin everyones minds tryin to get all the info they can befor they start a new project  as for the ones who vote i my self  if i see somthing that inspiers me and i like i vote  but that should be each and every member s personal choice i dont vote every month  but on what i like and that should be each and every ones personal choice   some of  us  dont give a hott about the beauty contests   just my 2 cent    ::)
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: Ryano on June 18, 2008, 02:08:43 pm
Bent Rig,everyones Definition of primitive is not the same. Some of the best bows Ive seen on here where reproductions of original native American bows. Which by the way were anything but plain Jane. They took great pride in the craftsmanship of thier weapons and decorated them to display as such just as we do today. Most of these bows where Dyed or painted with bright colors and decorated with wraps, quill work, beads, and feathers. A bow doesn't have to be plain or unattractive to be primitive.  Just my 2 cents. The pretty bow thing doesnt make any sence to me, its just good craftmanship. Also as far as the kind of wood goes...we all know osage and yew are superior bow woods, not to say that a good bow cant be made from other "white woods" Because we all know they can, its just if you have a local supply of a superior bow wood your probally going to use it more than the others. I for one will always vote for a very well made white wood bow over a decent osage bow because I know its hard to get a great bow from whitewoods, again just my 2 cents take it for what its worth. By the way the last two months bow of the month was won by a black locust bow and a maple bow.....just to prove my point.
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: a finnish native on June 18, 2008, 04:43:55 pm
well, I have to lay my opinion in also.
Please no one take this personally! O:)
First of all, the mighty fine pictures on this website are only available for registered users, and you all know that one pic is worth a thousand words right? that might be one of the key reasons.
 Then as to BOM, I have to say that some people are here just for the information and knowledge, not for a competition won by looks and a billion coat's of tru oil.. I for one hold the info more important that BOM. Don't get me wrong Don, you have done one hell of a job here, and I understand that it is necessary to hold this, since the winner is always featured in the new PA magazine. It's just that some people don't care about looks or stories that much.
Then what comes to the number of voters.. I have to say that this core group of users who have posted several hundreds of posts are the votes that really count in my book. This is because it is those users mainly who really know their stuff somehow (nobody's perfect).
And I think it might be better off this way, because if all 1310 members voted, the winner would be the one with most tru oil and decorations on his or her bow. So maybe it's better that only the core group votes frequently. Most of the bows have a story too, and I bet that all members are not motivated enough to read all the stories of the bows in the competition, and thus the prettiest one would win, and not the most special or characteristic one.
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: Pat B on June 18, 2008, 04:58:06 pm
Santtu, I'm happy to hear your comments. Thanks!  You have contributed greatly to our site and your opinion is always welcomed. ;)  Primitive Archer is not only for us here in the USA but a world wide site. I am seeing more and more folks from Europe and would like to see more from Asia, Australia, Central and South America and anywhere else in the world primitive archer hail.     Pat
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: Jesse on June 27, 2008, 07:27:36 pm
Wow cant believe I read all that.  I say leave it or have a panel of judges that are the same each month.
Title: Re: One Time LookyLou Members
Post by: Phillip K on July 01, 2008, 12:30:31 am
I Care a lot about Bowyer tradition even if I can't participate 100 percent but I am still voting for June BOM, Peace.PK