Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Flintknapping => Topic started by: radius on June 14, 2008, 02:51:05 am
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Just how sharp can a rock really be? I mean, come on: sharper than steel? AS sharp as steel?
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Osidian, or volcanic glass is far superior to steel in sharpness. They have done surgery with obsidian blades, and they were far sharper, and the edge lasted longer than the modern scalpals. Look at a metal edge under a micro scope, and it will look like an old abused saw blade. The stone point has a molecular edge, and is very smoothe. Flint, chert, and other similar stones will likewise produce a sharper edge than steel. The advantage to steel, is it's ability to absorb more schock without breaking, and to flex.
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If you get a chance work with some obsidian. You''ll find out the hard way how sharp it is. ;)
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What Stickbender said. A sharp obsidian edge is the sharpest edge known to mankind. It is often one molecue wide at the edge. Justin
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Yep! I have the spilt blood to prove it too!
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ok, ok, now that we've got obsidian out of the way (which i knew about, of course) let's talk about some of the other stones people use to knap, like chert or something.
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Still sharper than steel! Pat
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It probably depends a little on the stone. If you get good stone it will be sharper than steel. (especially if I sharpened the steel) :D I'm sure that poor quality stone will give you a poor quality edge just like poor steel don't hold an edge as well. Justin
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Stone can be sharper than steel but steel will be more consistent, from what I've seen most stone knifes are more like a saw edge
which won't give a smooth cut. If ya just knock a flake off and make a hoko knife then yer talkin sharp. Not sure I explained taht real well ???
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Well Radius...........let me put it this way....Hope ya never get cut by it ! Stone that is. :o I disagree with Dana, stone can be as consistent as steel. When stone breaks it produces another sharp edge steel does not.................bob
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Stone gets really sharp! I was knapping yesterday and had some flakes that were way sharper than steel.
Glass also gets wayy sharp
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OBSIDIAN IS THE ONE OF THE ONLY KNOWN MATERIALS THAT CAN SPLIT ITS OWN MOLECULE!!
obsidian is wayyy over 100 times sharper than any surgical honed edge.
rock has been putting red meat on the dinner table for THOUSANDS OF YEARS, who are we to question its ability?
mbg
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what do you mean, "Who are we to question it?" You sound like rock is a god, and we are some ignorant prehistoric savages! Jesus!
We have minds so that we can question. (well, that's one thing to do with our minds, anyway!)
I have never knapped, so I don't know...hope you don't mind me asking...
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Stone can get really, really, really sharp. All the scars on my hands illustrate it well. A stone edge feels different from a steel edge, though-so many people not used to it would think that a sharp knapped stone edge was duller than a steel one, but it'll sure slice the bejeezus out of meat. I've surprised a few people by picking up a "dull" piece of flint and slicing through heavy pigskin leather like it was butter.
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I would say, it all depends on how ya knap or finish the edge. The edge of a spall that tapers out unworked is like a razor, but on the points that have the edge chipped and shaped it's more like a serrated steak knife - not razor sharp but does go through hide, bone, and meat nicely ;D.
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Sharp! Very, very sharp!
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listen radius.
you posted the thread.
rock is not god.
who said anything about savages?
i do mind you asking questions that you get so offensive at.
as for obsidian and other rocks....primitives used what they found or traded for, and opted to use the best thing available...by choice, not circumstance...
so for your best intrest ,use your mind for something like RESEARCH and find out for yourself....or better yet, go out and spend your hard earned money for the "next best razor-replacement blade broadhead system"...and stay off the PRIMITIVE sites.
to the moderators who will be either kicking me off, or locking down this thread....
THIS ONLINE SITE IS GETTING TO BE A JOKE! HAHAHA
everyones a master crafter,or 100th part friend of a cousin to a REAL indian,and so he/she goes to the local retail store and picks up a traditional bowhunter magizine " i.e fiberglass,carbon,etc,scentlock mumbo jive" then comes in here and asks questions about the lethality or sharpness of stone????
hey radius, ask all of your compound buddies,or even your rifles buddies what there sucess rate is between "hit" animals and "in the back of the truck" dead animals are!!!!
i bet you that they will have stories of lost deer too!
it takes more than a stick and a string to be a good hunter radius. shooting them and making them bleed god is only one 10th the puzzle.
it is the people who envy and study the "ignorrant prehistoric savages" that puts the influence in our good hunting gear today radius.
so i guess you can call me as such.
and as to questioning its ability...i guess us dumb cavemen will have to sit back and watch all you fools spend your money on new age crap "cause its on t.v,and its done the hard way.....lol
dumb caveman ...oooga booga
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listen radius.
you posted the thread.
rock is not god.
who said anything about savages?
i do mind you asking questions that you get so offensive at.
as for obsidian and other rocks....primitives used what they found or traded for, and opted to use the best thing available...by choice, not circumstance...
so for your best intrest ,use your mind for something like RESEARCH and find out for yourself....or better yet, go out and spend your hard earned money for the "next best razor-replacement blade broadhead system"...and stay off the PRIMITIVE sites.
to the moderators who will be either kicking me off, or locking down this thread....
THIS ONLINE SITE IS GETTING TO BE A JOKE! HAHAHA
everyones a master crafter,or 100th part friend of a cousin to a REAL indian,and so he/she goes to the local retail store and picks up a traditional bowhunter magizine " i.e fiberglass,carbon,etc,scentlock mumbo jive" then comes in here and asks questions about the lethality or sharpness of stone????
hey radius, ask all of your compound buddies,or even your rifles buddies what there sucess rate is between "hit" animals and "in the back of the truck" dead animals are!!!!
i bet you that they will have stories of lost deer too!
it takes more than a stick and a string to be a good hunter radius. shooting them and making them bleed god is only one 10th the puzzle.
it is the people who envy and study the "ignorrant prehistoric savages" that puts the influence in our good hunting gear today radius.
so i guess you can call me as such.
and as to questioning its ability...i guess us dumb cavemen will have to sit back and watch all you fools spend your money on new age crap "cause its on t.v,and its done the hard way.....lol
dumb caveman ...oooga booga
??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
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Hey Radius,
Stone can be pretty darn sharp. Obsidian and glass are the sharpest, high quality flint and chert is also scary sharp (at least the edges of the flakes are). Grainy chert that is of poorer quality is not quite as sharp as higher quality stone. Heat treated chert is very sharp.
When you make an arrowhead from stone, the edge is not as sharp as the edge of a fresh flake. But the edge is also much stronger. It's more like a saw blade. I sent some stone points to a friend of mine in Florida and he shot a 150 lb. pig with one of them. He said blood shot 4 feet out of both entry and exit wounds the moment the arrow hit. It only walked 10 feet and fell over dead. Turned out the point sliced the top of the heart completely off and when he gutted the pig, the heart fell out with the guts.
He then shot a 400 pound hog with another point and it passed thru both lungs and slammed into the offside shoulder blade. It split the shoulder blade in half, and the tip of the point broke off in the bone when the pig jumped. It only ran 40 yards.
I've talked to people who have killed game with stone points and they say that stone points kill quicker than steel points. I've seen the damage they do in game that I've killed with them and its pretty impressive. They aren't magic of course, you gotta hit the animal in the vitals, but if you do, they do damn good job of destroying any soft tissue they encounter.
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well, guys, thanks for all your responses...i guess the answer is, in general: pretty sharp!
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i understand that it not legal everywhere to hunt with stone points?
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michbowguy, you don't have to worry about me kicking you off. I've said this before, If radius spent as much time trying to do the things that he ask advice for and not questioning the answers he gets back, from, obviously, other people who have taken the time to learn rather than nit-pick and stir the pot he might be productive to a learning situation.
radius, it seems like all you want to do is not learn, but see whose chain you can jerk. Do you make anything? Do you post anything besides something confrontational? Do you knap? Show everybody something instead of how good you are at arguing. We have had enough of this petty crap on this board.
So, how about contributing something informational, do same research on your own instead of having other people do it for you and then questioning it? Google Obsidian, It would have given you the information everybody else has just told you. But you still want to question it. Try getting off the key board and seeing if it works , get your hands dirty.
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Radius,
Back off bud... >:( I have held the confrontational front for yrs here, and you are stompimg on my grounds. I suggest you play nice or deal with the master..... ;D
Brian
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radius, i wont holler at ya.
to answer your question,no stone points arent legal to hunt every where. i live in mn and our laws state very clearly that broadheads must have atleast two metal cutting edges..
but i would lo ve to get a couple stone point for some arrows i'm making.just for looks ya know.
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Brian, ;D ;D ;D ;D
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hey, chigger-bait: i've posted plenty of bows on this site: a couple good buildalongs which many people have thanked me for...so don't take out your itchy bad day on me.
You guys quit bitch-talking me about asking questions: I always ask questions when I want an answer. Over and over again you see great guys like Justin Snyder and Pat B and Jawge saying, "Ask away, there are lots of experienced guys here who want to share their knowledge." So just because you're red and sore from head to toe, don't be rude. I've posted some possible solutions to some of the problematic issues here, and many complimentary or helpful responses to people who put their bows up for critique and appreciation.
Guys like you and michbowguy make this site an unpleasant trip ... it's like laying in the chigger-nest, and i'm getting hives just writing this!
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;D
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radius,
i start to wonder about your "advice" giving when ive read some of your posts like...."what is a hill style bow?"
well, after reading that , i will know THAT YOU DO WILL NOT ANSWER ANY OF MY QUEATIONS!!! lol
long before you came radius many more were open minded with there EXPERTISE, and were willing to share some trade secrets that took many years and hundreds of bows made to find these out....
now with all of your so called "bitch talking" these few just sit back and shake there heads and think that we budding bowyers are realy not worthy of such data as we seem to be exploiting there knowledge in our work claiming the proven techniques to be ours and taking credit for them.
these ways have been around longer than the atlatl,no primitive style bow is a new design,just a different take on a borrowed example.
so keep on answering peoples questions with your "archery knowledge" and i will take a step back like my friends and watch this forum go down the tubes just like the rest!
as for some of the "senoir" [please do not take offence to this word, i mean no disrespect!] members who still help new bowyers out, with debate thank you for your patience and wisdom.
radius, these members you claim to help or have helped you out so much became who they are on the "net", and in person , became who they are for bieng generous and open minded and keeping a closed mouth and open ears and THOUGHT BEFORE THEY SPOKE.
if my presence here "shocked" or has turned people away from primitive ways ...my intent was not for that to happen.
my shocking presence is to help snuff out phoneys and bigmouths that take our site and "place for granted"
pull your skirt back down radius and sit back,and do more research.
better yet , post something that we havent seen or built.
this would be very interesting.
mbg.out.
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ok alright already enoug is enough.
i started coming to this site for advise on making bows because i wanted an new bow and couldnt afford one so thought iw ould try making my own.
i have gotten great advise from several of the "seniors" on here.some from relitive newbies.
i know i have done my share of bitching on here,and i personally am tired of doing it and will try to control my anger/ typing fingers.
i will continue to seek advise on here from whom ever is willing to answer my post,however i have made my self a promise. i hope it help in the long run.
i have promised myself to never start or join in an argument willing on here again.i think i will add to that, i will no longer continue to read threads of anyones when there is an argument started on there. nothing personal against anyone, im just friggin tired of it all.
in the words of Rodney King,"cant we all just get along"
peace to both you radius and you mbg,hope we can all be friends on here in the long run
tim
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hear hear tim...more power to that!
for my part i pledge to continue asking questions...can't help it if some people get all bent out of shape...up here in canada we have a saying about people like that: f--k 'em.
so, i'm hearing rocks get pretty sharp, then?
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His name is NOT chigger-bait. Why dont ya go find out if rocks get pretty sharp, that is if ya have the time..bob
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nownow let's play nice...
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NO! ;)
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but...if we play nice, won't people be less likely to shoot at us?
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quit bieng an a$$.
get yourself a mathews compound, i hear there pretty nice.
there is a bunch os things you can buy for it,and you do not have to ask us silly questions, just read the packages and they will tell you that there products work the best.
lets end this already.
mbg
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You might as well quit MBG,you aren't going to win. If he can't get somebody to argue with he'll argue with himself.
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now that you bring compound bows up.
i noticed when i was hunting turkeys this year,when i took a shot with my bow it sure seemed loud compared to my longbow.
yes i have all that fancy silencer crap on it too,used to think it was quiet compared to other compounds.never realized just how much noise a sophisticated bow really was untill i started making primitive bows.
just one of many random thoughts that wonder in and out of my skull all day long kinda like this one. do you think infants enjoy infancy as much as adults enjoy adultery. lol i make my self laugh sometimes,or maybe its the voices in my head that are laughing at me. either way i enjoy it :P
peace,
tim
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Tim, I've actually shot at deer and hogs and missed, just to have them sniff the arrow while I was pulling out another one. Shot a hog once that jumped when it was hit and then went back to rooting. A few minutes later, it just fell over dead. They are quiet, and if they don't see you, then you get to keep playing.
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I've never shot a compound,but I've heard people shoot them.They are very lod,I mean all the mechanics you hear.The cams,the release,ect...
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i've never shot a compound...never much shot a rifle, either...but i sure like shooting my holmegaard!
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Nice weather we're having isn't it? ;)
How about them Vols? ;D
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Vols are good! How about them chipmunks?
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Nice weather here too, Greg. Vols?, that the same team that plays the Gators? ::) ;)
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No Eddie, thats the team that looses to the Gators. ;D Weather is nice here too. A little bit warm, about 108* today, but I like it that way. Justin
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It was 47* night before last here. Had to wear a sweat shirt while watching tv. ;D
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77 today and sunny! What a change. No Rain!!! ;D
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Well, Radius, apparently Michbowguy has never heard of......The Amazing Ginzu knife! You can cut the Christmas tree to size, and cut through the super hard, and tough thin aluminum soft drink can, AND, yes, AND still slice a tomato! Lets see you do that with a rock! No, no, smashing the tomato doesn't count.
Heh, heh, heh, stir, stir, stir, the pot, merily, merily, stir, stir, the pot......or is that roll, been awhile since the sixties......
As for penetration of stone, versus steel, remember that stone is made of silica. You know like silicone lubricant. Steel, tends to grip, rather slip through. Also the serrated edges, or the stone point, has more surface area, and the thickness, and shape of the stone point has more shock value. The only draw back is how the stone point is hafted, and how the end of the shaft that the point is hafted to, is shaped. Whether it is bare, covered with, and smoothed with hide glue, or left un tapered, or smoothed.
Anyway, no matter how you look at it stone is sharper than steel. You can burnish metal to a smooth edge, but it will never be thin enough or smooth enough to come close enough to obsidian, or glass, or good flint, or chert. Like I said the only advantage with steel, is it's durability, and design features, and ability to take more damaging forces. A piece of stone, especially the obsidian, can cut you so bad you will bleed yesterday! AND you probably won't know it till you see the blood, or feel the sting when something like water gets to it. Back in the mid to late sixties, the Japanese used glass blades to slice the spindle fibers, of a deviding cell.
Stick Bender
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I sliced open my finger to and cut part of one of my tendons in the finger and never felt a thing until the blood started flowing down the back of my hand. That was obsidian! Sharpest substance on the face of the earth!
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if obsidian is that sharp and dnagerous, why do i always hear people telling newbies to learn on obsidian?
only asking cause im thinking of trying knapping
peace,
tim
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Tim obsidian works easy and doesn't require any heat treating.
If you are interested in starting I would suggest free stuff like toilet tanks and 1/4" plate glass :)
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Make sure the glass you use has been tempered. If its untempered it will just crumble. Obsidian is cool stuff. Volcanic glass that works great and very easily. I like it a lot! I have just been learning how to really knapp it a lot bette. Make sure you platform even for flaking and strike or press off flakes bellow the center line and never above.
David T
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I've been playin around with knappin a little lately, thought about huntin with some of the points. (Sure is easy to see which ones I started on.) Kinda wonderin where is a good place to get my hands on some rock. I have been using some flakes I teased off recently at the '08 MoJam, but am almost out of them. Also, is there a recipe for the heating process, or do you have to ruin a lot of rock before you do it right?!?
d:^)
Scott
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Where you from Scott? Out here on the west coast I head for Glass Buttes once a year to collect obsidian. One day I hope to have a vehicle I can get out in the desert with off road to prospect for different sources. Wish it was easier to obtain but I have to travel for it and it takes a good 12-14 hours to get from WA to West of Bend OR where it is. If it was not for good friends who help me to get around the Buttes at the Knapp Inn there I don't think I would have any rock to work. If you are in a region with no resources you can always use old toilets also known as Thunder Chert or John Stone. Works well and is inexpensive to learn on and 1/4" thick glass works well too.
Just wish we had chert sources that are easy to get to here in the Northwest. Agates can be found in rivers here but nothing really big.
David T
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I'm from central I'll and we don't have a lot of any rock on the ground around here. Occasionally find old indian points but almost never find any usable chert or flint. Are quarries or suppliers just so expensive its out of the question? Someone told me around $100 for a 5 gal bucket. Not sure that's worth it, but don't want to give up my new found hobby just yet.
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At the Buttes we pick up around 250 pound at a pop for nothing! Just find it and use it. Now back east they will charge ya a bundle. Though I probably should tack on gas to get there. The hassle of traveling out the the OR desert and supplies and such. But it really is fun!
If I were you I would find some glass, porcelain dishes and toilet bowls and practice on those before buying chert for those high prices. Flintknapping should not break your bank!
David T
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Stringman: You should learn how to knap on any kind of "free" glass you can find for starters. I imagine theirs some kind of rock in your area that would work, prolly down in the creeks or maybe in a cuttout along a highway or backroad. Thunderchert (toilet tanks) is tough but will teach you a lot, TV picture tubes are great to work with because their so thick and have that smoked glass look - makes your flakes stand out a little better.
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I learned on Johnstone, then cut my teeth on Paul's concrete potatoes ;D. I then got some heat treated rock and treated some of Paul's rock and what once was hard is not pretty simple. I think if you learn on the tough stuff, you learn good techniques and hopefully not too may bad habits.
Mike
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All good info, and much appreciated! I consider myself a quick learner and therefore don't really wanna waste around on "junk glass" -(no offense.)
Being a central Illinois flatlander what I would really like to hear is, are there any others in my area with the same problem. Is chert gettin more and more scarce or are they just makin the price ridiculously high for the fun of it?!?
By the way I just got stitches from a "dumb 'ol rock." Gonna leave a pretty little scar!
d:^)
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Glass is good to learn with - just like obsidian. I have read that chert is among the most abundant natural resources on the planet - knowing where to find it is almost one of life's mysteries ;D.
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be careful if you learn on the hard stuff. many a time i have worked texas concrete and then switched to obsidian only to drive a flake straight through 2 thick pieces of leather and into my palm. again ...its sharp. peace
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Wow...this post has bummed me out. I have not been on this site much in the last couple months. What happened? I am only a young college student and it still seems to me that many of you boys are acting like children??? Post like these have the potential to make our whole community look bad...and children should be welcome to visit this forum, therefore swear words have NO business being in anyone's posts. Why are so many people so bent out of shape?
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Food additives?
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ya i agree, food additives,that'll do it everytime.
i always feel best when i eat organically ;D helps with additude also,or maybe thats the chocolate or other natural remedies
tim