Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => HowTo's and Build-a-longs => Topic started by: JackCrafty on September 22, 2008, 11:56:40 pm
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This is my first build-a-long.....and my hope is that it will spark a discussion on how to produce a replica plains bow with the best possible performance.
The wood I will be using is juniper....not because juniper is awesome.....but because it is what I have available right now. The wood has already been chosen, cut down, shaped, and seasoned. What's left is the application of sinew, making a bowstring, final tillering, painting, finishing, and shooting to test performance.
Many of you guys have already built double curve bows and it seems a lot of people have one. The one thing missing, though, is how to get one to perform well without turning it into a wide-limbed, narrow tipped, long, non-bendy handle, laminated monstrosity with an arrow shelf cut in the side (yuck) and fast-flight string. I've looked high and low and there are few references on how to build a reproduction of one of these.....far fewer than the databases on how to build a traditional ELB, for example.
Ok, enough introduction, the first step is choosing the right wood. The wood must, first and foremost, be very flexible. The MOE and Work to Maximum Load (WML) must be higher than average....with ash wood being the average. It must be easy to bend with heat and or steam. It must have been available to NA's. And the wood has to be able to withstand the strain imposed by the dimensions of the originals.
Since I am using juniper, I will discuss how I choose a juniper stave. The pictures show that not all juniper is created equal. The ratio of sapwood to heartwood varies quite a bit between trees and between branches and trunks of the same tree. As a general rule, tension wood (the upper side of limbs or leaning trunks) has a very high percentage of heartwood...and is the best choice for bows...if you can get a long enough piece without twist or branches. However, juniper trees growing close to water seem to have a lot of heartwood in their trunks (which are usually straighter than limbs) and this is the wood I try to harvest. I have made bows with all heartwood and all sapwood and they both work well.....but the heartwood is better at not absorbing moisture and taking set. The bow in this build-a-long is almost 100% heartwood.
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The measurements for this bow will be very closely matched to a bow I've already built out of juniper (with the same amount of heartwood).
The older bow's mass is 10.9 oz. The accompanying string is .4 oz. The new bow's mass is 12.9 oz.
The width of the older bow is 1-1/16" and the new one is 1-5/16' wide (I plan on making it stronger than the older bow).
The thickness of the older bow is 1-3/16" (including sinew) and the new bow is 13/16".
The limbs of both bows are tapered gradually to the tips in both width and thickness (just like the originals).
The new bow will have slightly recurved tips.
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is that the normal brace height on the older bow? does it slap your thumb? Very nice. Can't wait to see the rest of the build along.
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i was curious too, however if you look at the left limb you can see the string is off the nock, atleat i hope it is cause thas gonna hurt other wise
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The overall length of the older bow is 47-1/2" and the new bow is 49-1/4" long. The extra length is for the "tassel pin" at the top of the bow.
I'm also posting a couple pics of how I measure the "curves". The shape was mainly done by eye and then fine tuned with a tape measure. The general shape is something that I learned with practice (with juniper in this case). Other wood types will have slightly different curves depending on how much set I expect to have in the final bow.
The central curve is 1-1/8" from from the edge of the board to the back of the bow. The distance between mid-limb curves is 24". The distance from the edge of the board to the back of the bow @ tips is 1" (not shown).
(That's it for now...I'll post more soon).
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Yes, the older bow is unbraced in the pics. The normal brace height is 4-1/2". Sorry for the blurry pics....I plan to replace my cheapo camera in a week or so.
More pics of the older bow can be seen here:
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,9026.0.html (http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,9026.0.html)
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Just so we are all on the same page...here are some pics of the real things...
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nice thread. Remember that you only have to reflex the bow in the handle. no deflexing the outer limbs is necessary. that will happen automatically with set and tillering.
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Finnish Native, thanks for bringing up the issue of final shape after tillering. This is a fundamental question: How much should set and tillering affect the final shape of a double-curve bow?
My answer.....NOT AT ALL. Nada. Zip. The goal is to induce the least amount of set during construction and shooting. This is true for ANY bow. It is a fundamental principal. Of course, set is nearly impossible to eliminate but the goal is to minimize it.....not use it as a shaping tool.
So, yeah, I respectfully disagree with the idea that no deflexing of the outer limbs is necessary. ;D ;)
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Yes, agree. The shape of the bow is set prior to tillering the bow. The way you are proposing Finnish would either break the bow real realy in the tillering process orwould end up being a real dud. I think that Tim Baker tries that in one of the TBB.He describes how they bent a bow like that in the middle and trid to tiller it to take the gull wing shape with a broken bow resulting every time. I think it was Tim. Besides its much easier to just create the whole shape prior to tillering. More predictable as well.
Steve
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Hi Folks, From what I can find in the literature, Patrick is right in saying that the originals were shaped into the gull wing shape before tillering. A bow that is reflexed at the handle and straight limbed will also take a gull winged shape when strung. I think the second option increases perfomance by increasing early draw weight. See my example made from rocky mountain juniper
Ron
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc270/May-Pumphrey/plainsbowsource2.jpg)
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc270/May-Pumphrey/Plainsbowunstrungprofileafterrain.jpg)
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what M-P said. you tiller the bow so that the wood bends from everywhere, and the handle being a tad stiffer will remain reflexed. I have to say that I have made several gull wing shaped bows. not for one have I defleced the limbs before tillering. it takes the shape automatically. And those bows of mine still contain reflex after several hundread shots.
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thats what I do to mine also....the Shape is pre-tiller
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Awesome! Thanks for the pics guys. ;D
It seems there are various interpretations of double curve (gull wing) bows. As for me, I try to focus on reproduction bows. After careful study of Native American designs, there seems to be one characteristic that stands out: Plains Indian bows are simply "curved" D-bows. They perform basically the same, and are tillered the same, as D-bows. The primary difference is the decreased brace height of the double curve bow design.
Any characteristic that improves the performance of a D-bow will also improve a double curve bow. Less deflex in the upper limbs is a good performance enhancer (as M-P mentioned) and so is recurved tips, narrowed tips, wider limbs near the handle, etc.....and there are Native American bows with these characteristics.
The reason(s) behind why Native Americans often liked to deflex the tips of their bows is a mystery from a performance standpoint.....but many NA bows have them, so I think they are an essential element.
IMO, a bow with a reflexed stiff handle and slightly reflexed, slightly deflexed, or straight limbs is simply a reflexed stiff handle bow. The design is efficient for long lengths but not for a compact bow....unless the limbs are quite wide. I would say that a reflexed stiff handle bow is more like a Sudbury bow than a plains double curve bow.
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There is also the issue of the ability of the handle area to remain reflexed during the life of the bow. Many bowyers make the handle stiffer so that the reflex will not "pull out". Some woods are better at keeping this reflex than others. IMO, if you are using wood that does not hold a reflex well, it is not suitable for a double curve bow.
The way to get around this, of course, is to find a stave with the natural shape of a double curve...which is not too difficult if you've got thousands of acres of woodlands to rummage through. I don't know about you but I certainly don't. So...I've experimented with quite a few species and here is my list (best first) of suitable wood for double curves:
Osage
Juniper
Elm
Locust
Mulberry
Other low to medium stiffness, high tensile strength wood
White Oak
Hickory
White Ash
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Brothers, I read somewhere once that tips were often deflexed on NA bows, so that they could be strung for longer periods of time without causing the bow to tire out and take set. The example was given that NA bows for protection were often kept in the lodge or tipi strung in periods of fear of attack from other tribes, and the last thing you want to do when the warriors from an enemy tribe attack you at 4am is have to string your bow. This way, you leave it strung all night and just grab it in time of need, because in early morning surprise attacks, seconds count. I doubt that hunting bows would have been purposele deflexed, but the article definately talked about bows for protection being that way. And I'm sorry, I know you're dying to know where I read that, but I don't remember at all. That was back in the days when I was first starting out and read anything and everything I could find on bows because I didn't know a forum like this even existed where I could come and get info in one place.
~~Papa Matt
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Thanks Papa Matt...makes sense to me. ;D
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No problem, Pat. Just sharing what I know for the benefit of all. I'm glad we can all learn from things like this, thanks for doing the buildalong.
I noticed on your list of woods that hold the handle reflex well, you have Elm before Locust. Does this mean that for a double curve style, you prefer Elm over BL?
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Papa Matt. Nope, I do not prefer elm over locust. Elm just seems to hold its shape better.
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It does? I have never worked with Elm before, and have only worked with a few BL. Is it easier then, for an Elm to take less set than a BL, all esle being equal? I would have guessed Elm would hold shape less, being a white wood. Enlighten me.
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Papa Matt, overall I think Black Locust is superior to Elm as a bow wood. That said, I tend to make the kid's bows out of elm because of the abuse the bows take. Elm bends extremely well with steam and I can induce quite a bit of reflex into the bows...or whatever shape I want. And after taking a lickin', elm keeps on kickin' when locust would have broken.
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Here's a couple links to an elm bow made by Marc St Louis (hope he doesn't mind).
http://marc.stoneflake.net/Selfbows/Elm%20Recurved%20D%20Bow/Combination%20Braced.jpg
http://marc.stoneflake.net/Selfbows/Elm%20Recurved%20D%20Bow/
The bow has maitained 3" of reflex.
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Pat, I think my question really is about set. All else being equal, both woods dried out as good as can be, same optimal shape for each wood, which in your experience takes less set...the Elm? Sorry for all the questions. I've just never really worked with Elm, and have a couple staves lying around. So I'm trying to feel for the best style of bow for them.
~~Matt
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Hmmm...The simple answer is that I don't know.>:D
I think BL would take less set before breaking.....but BL will break before elm does. Does that help? ;D
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Yeah, I think I gotcha. ;) And I very much appreciate you responding to all my questions. I just can't decide whether to make a longbow from my Elm or a shorter style, like maybe one of these double curves. I recently made a BL double curve, sort of by accident. I wish I could post pics, I feel so guilty enjoying all the pics from other guys on here and then not holding up on my end by never posting any and always typing pure text. But the BL that I recently made into a double curve by accident, is somewhat longer than the traditional plains style, it's 66" NTN and had a nice ammount (about 3.5") of reflex in it naturally when it was cut. I once saw what was described as a "navajo style" bow, with a very long handle, it looked to me about 10" fade to fade, and I assume it bended slighly. So I designed my 66 incher with that in mind and it has about a 10" handle, which is where all the reflex is stored and it bends slightly. The bow is made and done, I just haven't shot it yet because a while back I broke 3 bones in my shooting hand and it's still not quite strong enough to pull it all the way back. I estimate it will be about 65# at 26". But when braced at 4.5" it looks like a longer version of what you're making here, with the reflex in the handle more spread out (over the 10 inches, instead of in a V). Anyway, the point is, I sort of already have a double curve, and the Elm staves are calling my name. I guess I might go longbow style with them.
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Patrick,
Thanks for the build-a-long. I'll be watching this closely, love the short native bows!!!!!
Haven't cut the wood yet, but should be any day.
Thanks again,
Donnie
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Hi Folks, I'm waiting eagerly to follow this build along. In the meantime, I just had an idea for another reason that te double curve may have been favored by groups that were largely horse archers. I've noticed that low braced bows are a lot easier to string. I have trouble imagining how a heavy weight bow could be strung while on horse back, but a low brace height would have helped. Ron
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Hey Papa Matt,
I'll help you out with the photos. Just send me a couple of your favorite bows and I'll photograph and post them for you.... >:D >:D >:D
Keith
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:D
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Nice bows - - keeping my eyes open for a chunk of wood with that initial shape. What is the draw length / pounds on the 47" and what are you trying for on the 49 incher?
Also, do you think shooting 3 under is adviseabe with these types?
Thanks for the buildalong, and love the pic of the young archer ;D
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Nice thread and bows. I've wanted to make one of these for a while. Last weekend I roughed out three staves, two osage and one hickory. Looking foward to seeing more progress.
Alan
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Postman....yep, the 3 under works fine for me....but I've got small fingers. ;D The Sioux grip is my favorite (and I'm so accustomed to it that any other grip feels wrong) but any grip that is comfortable and effective for the archer is the "correct" grip in any case.
The 47" bow pulls 45# @22". On the new bow I'm planning on a cruising speed of 55# @22" with a max speed of 60# @24".
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This weekend I'll be working on the new bow. I plan to apply the sinew and begin working on the bowstring.
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I took some pictures of some trouble spots on the back of the new bow.
The first two pics show a natural concave area between two "lumps". I sanded down these lumps and violated the rings quite a bit. (This can be done with juniper as long as the back is well sinewed and the main body of the bow is sound). The concave area will be filled with two (maybe three) layers of sinew in order to compensate for the weak spot and to bring the surface level with the back of the bow.
I also sanded the small knots down flat and smoothed down the rest of the back without worrying about violating a ring or two. The ideal situation would be to use the wood just under the bark for the back of the bow, like with hickory, but a perfect juniper stave is a VERY rare commodity. The older bow's back was shaped in this fashion as well.
Ishi decrowned his juniper staves and violated growth rings quite drastically in order to create a wide, level, smooth surface for the sinew. I have not gone to that extreme with my bows (yet). ;D
Before I apply the sinew over the knots on the edges of the bow's back, I will round off the sharp edge and apply extra sinew over the knots. There's a total of four knots on the back that are larger than 1/8" in diameter...two are on edges.
(As a side note: I've got two other juniper bows in the works with backs that are knot free and have not been violated.....but what's the fun in doing a build along with one of those? They're too easy. :P)
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Sinew is drying, so I got some time to post pics.
1. OK. The first pic shows the low spot that I will fill with sinew (side view).
2. Next pic shows the sinew I'll be using: Thick, short strands...well pounded...not stiff.
3. Next is the jute twine I use to wrap the sinew.
4. Fish glue.
5. Dabbing glue on finger.
6. Applying base coat of glue to wood.
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1. Sinew before dunking.
2. Sinew after dunking. I do not soak the sinew.
3. Laying the sinew on a dry towel.
4. Pouring out some glue into cup.
5. Cutting sinew into small pieces.
6. Dipping sinew in glue.
(The whole build along won't be like this...I'll pick up the pace as we progress) ;D
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1. Applying sinew pieces.
2. Wiping fingers on wet towel.
3. Beginning jute wrap.
4. More wrapping (light pressure).
5. Excess glue being pushed out ahead of wrap. This can be wiped off. (sorry for blurry pic)
6. Finished wrap.
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1. Carefully removing wrap after waiting 5 minutes.
2. Wrap removed.
3. Smoothing the patch (there will be jute fibers left behind). A few drops of water.
4. Side view of patch.
5. Second wrap after waiting 5 minutes (medium pressure).
6. Finished wrap. Let dry a few hours before next course.
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Rounding off sharp edges of bow's back and wiping down with damp cloth.
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After sizing the back with glue.....applying first strands of sinew to middle center of bow's back. The ends are pinched to form a point.
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Adding more strands....first to the bottom left, and then to the bottom right....overlapped slightly past bow centerline.
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Continue adding strands.....pushing them together.
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Continue until the sinew "points" reach both ends of the bow.
Almost there...losing daylight. First pic shows right limb with patch (from earlier) almost covered with sinew. Last pic shows finished left limb. Now the sinew (entire bow) will be wrapped with twine. More pics tomorrow (during daylight). ;D
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The new bow wrapped with jute twine....it was wrapped once to squeeze out excess glue (light pressure) then unwrapped and wrapped again with heavy pressure.
Also two other bows I'm working on. They were wrapped with polypropylene twine and let dry for a few days, unwrapped and let dry for another few days. They should be ready for tillering soon (in about a week). The sinew has been coated with more glue...that's why they look glossy.
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Patrick, you said "fish glue", did you make it or buy it? Also, do you apply it hot or cold?
great build-a-long,
Donnie
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Yes, Pat...More info on the fish glue please. Also, you said Ishi used to decrown his bows and violate rings to get a flat, level, surface for the sinew...is this to say that you should not sinew a round-backed bow, only de-crowned bows? Do you have an opinion on this?
~~Papa Matt
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The fish glue I use is made for furniture restoration work (among other things). It is liquid at room temperature and does not need to be mixed or heated. The manufacturer says the formula is fish glue, a small amount of glycerin, and a deodorizer.
There are various commercial sources for fish glue (just google it). Some of it can be pricey. Isinglass is the most expensive (fish bladder glue).
I suppose I could make my own....someday.
As far as flat surfaces for sinew, no, the surface can be rounded as well. I was referring to the way the growth rings are violated on wide limb paddle bows made from juniper. A straight grained stave of juniper is a VERY rare thing.
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Here are a couple of photos of a Native American double curve bow showing a single layer of sinew on the back. (A friend sent me these photos of his bow when he asked me to make a new string for it....the string in the photos is too thin and was made for display purposes). Anyway, the length of the bow is 40"....and the draw is probably 20" (typical of most NA bows of this type). It appears that the sinew is a safety feature (to help prevent breakage) rather than a performance enhancer.
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That's a bow that your friend made? It looks old. I would have guessed it came out of a museum. What wood was used for it?
~~Papa Matt
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The bow was made by an Indian, from the late 1800's...and my friend is an antiques dealer. He thinks it's Apache in origin. Not sure about the wood. I would guess that it's mulberry (a favorite among Apache bowyers).
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Ohhhhhh I see. That's pretty neat. Was the double curve the most popular horse bow at the time?
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Matt, it's funny but I've heard that the Apache's didn't like the double curves that much...they preferred a simple D-bow. As far as the horse culture goes, yes, I think the double curve was as popular as the buffalo hide tipi, long-flectched arrows, and the war shirt (during that time period).
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1. Jute twine wrapping removed from bow (today)....6 days after wrapping. You can see the fuzz of the twine left behind.
2. This is easily removed with a light sanding with 120 grit sanding sponge - using a circular motion. I try not to sand through any of the sinew.
3. Jute fibers removed.
4. Applying a coat of fish glue over the sinew (straight from the bottle). This is let dry for a few hours.
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1. Adding temporary "shoulder" nocks to tips of bow.
2. Loop and 4 strands of poly twine (temporary bowstring).
3. Loop placed over upper tip.
4-6. Tying off lower end. There is a little slack in the string. The bow is not braced.
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1. Marking center of bowstring.
2. Drawing for the first time (slowly).
3. Checking tiller @ 18" draw with the slack string. Looks like the right limb has a flat spot.
4. 42.7 lbs on the scale.
5. Removeable pegs on the tillering stick.
Note:
I've read several posts that suggest that sinew should dry for at least 2 weeks before tillering. The reason I don't wait that long is because of three reasons: (1)The climate is dry here in West TX and (2) I make an effort to keep all excess water and glue out of the backing (I don't soak the sinew in water, I dunk it, and I wrap the sinew with firm pressure so that all excess glue is squeezed out). Also, (3) I put on one or more thin layers of sinew....not a thick layer all at once.
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Checking set...
1. About 15/16" distance in the center immediately after tiller check (the bow was left in the tiller stick for 10 minutes). The original distance was 1-1/8" (before sinew).
2. About 1-1/4" on the left (upper) limb. The original distance was about 1".
3. About 1-1/8" on the right (lower) limb. The original distance was about 1".
Overall, very little set....but i still need to finish the tillering @18" draw, "sweat" the bow for a little while, relax it for a day, then shoot it a couple times to check for hand shock. I don't expect more than 3/4" of set on the limbs at this point. I will then add another layer of sinew over the entire back and sides for additional safety because of the relatively poor quality of the stave.
I will not be using the jute twine wrap over the second course of sinew. This should give the sinew a smoother look. I normally let the first course of sinew dry a bit longer but the weather's been very dry lately. However, I'm not going to draw it to 22" until the second course of sinew is dry. I will then wrap the tips (with sinew), add sinew shoulder nocks, and add sinew wraps in the center and at intervals along the limbs.
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1. Bow braced at 4". Draw weight is 5.5#@1"
2. Bow drawn to 10" ...24.0#
3. Bow drawn to 12".....29.8#
At this rate, I'm on track for a final draw weight of close to 60# (assuming I don't remove any wood). For 60# final weight short bows, here's the numbers I use:
60#@24"Draw
55#@22"
50#@20"
45#@18"
40#@16"
35#@14"
30#@12"
25#@10"
If the bow is pulling 25#@10", then it's on track to pull 60#@24".
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I decided that the upper limbs needed to bend more and that the middle was bending too much....so I thinned down the upper limbs and re-tillered. The new draw weights are:
22.7#@10"
27.9#@12"
I'm now on track for 55#@24" draw but that's OK. I'll try for 60# with the next bow. ;D Here's my chart for 55# bows:
55#@24"
50#@22"
45#@20"
40#@18"
35#@16"
30#@14"
25#@12"
20#@10"
The last pic shows the bow drawn to 18". The limbs aren't bending in perfect arcs yet but I'll stop messing with it for now. I'm going to add a second course of sinew before I do any further tillering.
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Measuring set:
1. Bow braced at about 4" for about 30 min, then string removed and let rest for about 15 min before measuring set.
2. Center distance about 15/16".
3. Measuring set in right limb.
4. Right tip distance (upper limb) about 1-1/2".
5. Left tip distance (lower limb) about 1-1/4".
The tiller is asymmetric at this point....but from what I've learned recently, this might not be such a bad thing.
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It appears that this new piece of juniper isn't as stiff as I had hoped. Unfortunately, it's hard to tell with juniper...there is a LOT of variation in the wood. I think I'll have to oversize the next one quite a bit to get the 60# I'm shooting for.
If this is helping anyone let me know. If you're confused, or if I left out something, (or messed up) let me know that too. ;D
I will be working on the bow again this next weekend.
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Great buildalong - out of curiosity, do you think a thick-ringed piece of osage could be done in a similar style/weight unbacked?
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Postman, sure. Unbacked osage was a favorite bow design of Comanche and Kiowa Indians. As long as you start with a sound piece of osage (not too knotty or snakey) that doesn't have too much of a crown on the back, you should be fine. I would go a little longer though...maybe 50-54"...or longer if you want a draw more than 24". It's best if you start with a fairly green stave of osage for the initial steam bending and then let it season to "lock in" the shape, but I've used cured staves as well. I've also used staves with a lot of sapwood but they are not as snappy as a heartwood stave. IMO, thick rings make it easier to chase a ring, but try to be as careful as possible because this design puts a lot of strain on the wood.
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cool - thanks - I have some green osage that's a little short - gonna try a 54 or so incher.
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I worked on the bowstring a little today. I added some pics to my "Sinew Bowstring Technique" thread that I posted a while ago. Here is the bowstring (partially completed) with a clamp placed on the strands to keep it from unraveling.
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-11-08/S4020717.jpg)
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This pic shows the draw weight of the new juniper bow @12" draw. It's been drying for a week and I'm going to add another course of sinew (today and tomorrow). I was just curious to see if the bow had picked up any weight. It appears that the draw weight is about the same as last week (it was 27.9 lb@ 12" draw six days ago).
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-11-08-2/S4020640.jpg)
OK, I'm going to show off a bit by posting some pics of a couple of sets I made a while ago. (They have been put though a lot of shooting and the stings on the bows have been replaced recently.) Anyway, since I was curious to see the differences in these bows compared to my new juniper bow, I thought I would take some pictures. The differences I'm concerned about are things like stack, hand shock, loss of draw weight while shooting/exercising the bows, wrist slap, and overall performance.
The following are pictures of two matched bow & arrow sets and a quiver made of suede. The upper bow is unbacked hickory (stained yellow) and the other is sinew-backed mulberry. The quiver was made for the mulberry bow & arrow set.
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-11-08-2/S4020642.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-11-08-2/S4020645.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-11-08-2/S4020646.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-11-08-2/S4020647.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-11-08-2/S4020651.jpg)
This pic shows the upper limbs and bowstrings (close-up). The upper string (on the hickory bow) is made of sisal and the other is sinew.
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-11-08-2/S4020652.jpg)
Pic showing both bows braced.
(They are both braced a little high to reduce wrist slap)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-11-08-2/S4020657.jpg)
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So....I measured the draw weights of these two bows @12"....three times each. I knew these two needed to be "warmed up" before shooting (because they loose draw weight) but I didn't know exactly how much.
Here's the first three readings on the mulberry bow:
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-11-08-2/S4020662.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-11-08-2/S4020663.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-11-08-2/S4020666.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-11-08-2/S4020665.jpg)
And the first three readings on the hickory bow:
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-11-08-2/S4020671.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-11-08-2/S4020672.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-11-08-2/S4020673.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-11-08-2/S4020676.jpg)
The mulberry seems to lose more draw weight than the hickory. (Mulberry lost 4% and the hickory lost 3.5%)
Something else I've noticed is that these bows seem to have a bit of positive tiller? Interesting. I didn't really know what positive tiller was until last week (or so). I think the fact that I tiller my bows to look "right" when I'm looking in a mirror (at full draw) is causing this.
Here are the first three readings on the older juniper bow @12" draw:
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-12-08/S4020719.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-12-08/S4020720.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-12-08/S4020721.jpg)
The juniper loses about 1.5% of draw weight after a few draws.
(Quite a bit less than the hickory or mulberry).
Close-ups......Upper nock on mulberry bow
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-11-08-2/S4020667.jpg)
Upper nock on hickory bow
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-11-08-2/S4020670.jpg)
Sinew near handle (mulberry bow)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-11-08-2/S4020678.jpg)
Sinew backing, upper nock
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-11-08-2/S4020679.jpg)
Sinew backing, lower nock
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-11-08-2/S4020680.jpg)
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Thanks for posting all of this great info. I really want to try again to make another one now that I understand a little better the reasons behind the design. That fish glue seems a whole lot easier than the mess of hot hide glue that I have used!!!
By the way are your quivers and bowcases made of brain-tan? The color and texture looks like it, but the pictures are not that detailed.
Nice work!
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Orcbow, the fish glue is definitely a lot easier to work with. Ishi used fish glue...that's where I got the idea.
The quiver you see is made of "moccasin weight" suede from Tandy Leather. It's inexpensive and tough. I wish I could afford braintan.
I've got a new camera now but I'm still learning how to use it. Hopefully this weekend I'll be able to post more detailed pics. Sorry about the poor quality so far.
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Patrick--Do you recommend fish glue over everything else? I ask because they say Knox gelatin is real good and strong-not to mention cheap. Is the fish glue that much better, if at all, so as to justify the greater expense?
~~Papa Matt
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I haven't used knox (yet) so I don't know how it compares to fish glue (or hide glue) as far as ease of use. There is a lot on reliable info that says knox is very strong.
Personally, I use fish glue for everything involving sinew...and also for primitive paint (it's called distemper paint and artists have been using watercolors based on fish glue and pigment for hundreds of years). I think it's well worth the expense. Do I have your address? Shoot me a PM....I'll send you a sample so you can try it.
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Pat, that's awesome of you to offer, but you don't have to put yourself through all that trouble. I'm just asking because in the near future I plan to sinew-back a bow, and it will be my 3rd attempt at it--my first two were poorly done because I didn't know half of what I know now, and they ended up being worthless. On my first attempt I used liquid hide glue which never dried and on my second I boiled some sinew scraps and leather to try a glue from that. So I'm just trying to more or less figure out what glue to use. I already have the sinew. I might try Knox since everybody says it's good stuff and so strong--and best of all only like 50 cents a box.
~~Matt
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Sounds good. Let me know how it turns out. ;D
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I wish I could afford brain-tan too! So I learned how to make it myself, you could too, Jackcrafty! If you can make bows and arrows like these! Fine work, I say. But brain-tan is really simple, although quite time consuming. And you don't even have to use brains...
For what it's worth, Papa Matt, I have used Knox glue a lot , and it is quite good and strong (and very cheap). But its maybe not as easy to use as fish glue.
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Patrick....where you buying your Fish Glue???? And as for Knox.......buy Hide Glue........it isnt the same........ask anyone that restores old Furniture.....or String Instruments....they would never waste their time with J-E-L-L-O
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Orcbow, I bought a video on how to braintan...so I know how to do it. I just don't have the space (yet). ;D
Destructo, here's where I buy my fish glue (8 oz.)----http://www.ecrios.com/Fish-Glue.htm
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Thanks Patrick......I appreciate the Heads Up........
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No problem Destructo. ;D
Maybe someone out there will look at that link and say "Hey, I can get it cheaper than that!". If so, please let us know.
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Orcbow, I bought a video on how to braintan...so I know how to do it. I just don't have the space (yet). ;D
Cool! You won't be disappointed!! Just don't try to do a buffalo right off! 10 million times harder than deer!
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Buffalo is a pain in the butt.....Good to know. ;)
I've got a few salted deer hides and I'm just waiting for the right time to get 'em tanned up.
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OK, the bow now has sinew applied to the sides and it's been drying for a few days.
I got a little too zealous and put sinew too high on the back (in the handle area) and the sinew separated from the back.
(Note: I did not wrap the sinew with twine this time.)
So I just trimmed it off with a knife. This did not affect the first course of sinew.
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-19-08/S4020799.jpg)
Sanding the remaining sinew "hight spots".
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-19-08/S4020800.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-19-08/S4020802.jpg)
I checked the alignment of the tips and, sure enough, the wood has "remembered" some of it's original shape.
(I guess the moisture in the sinew affected the wood?)
Anyway, the original shape was much worse that this, so I guess it's not too bad.
I just hope that it doesn't change much during final tillering.
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-19-08/S4020808.jpg)
I added a second course of sinew to the back and let it dry for a few days.
(The second course was not wrapped with twine)
I didn't apply the sinew to the handle area...just the limbs.
I hope you can see that there is no second course of sinew over the handle area in the pic below.
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-19-08/S4020813.jpg)
Lower tip with sinew on back and side.
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-19-08/S4020814.jpg)
Other tip.
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-19-08/S4020815.jpg)
Sanding rough spots on second course of sinew.
The second course is not as important as the first, so I'm not too worried about sanding through the fibers.
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-19-08/S4020816.jpg)
Wrapping the lower tip with sinew & glue.
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-19-08/S4020819.jpg)
Adding shoulder nock.
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-19-08/S4020820.jpg)
Applying layer of glue (straight from the bottle) over the second course of sinew.
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-19-08/S4020822.jpg)
As you can see from the last pic, I wrapped the limb (about 1" wide). I did this to cover a small splinter on the belly. Then I wrapped the other limb for symmetry. Then I remembered that I hadn't finished the tillering (OOPS!)....oh well. ;D I'm hoping the final tiller looks good. If there is a problem, and I have to remove the sinew wrap (to scrape wood off the belly), it's no big deal.....just kind of a pain. I'm crossing my fingers.
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Patrick, what's the purpose of the sinew on the side of the bow?
thanks,
Donnie
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Heck, I dunno. ;D It looks cool?
As far as I can tell, the sinew on the sides helps to strengthen the "corners" of the bow's cross section. I think it also helps to prevent splitting along the sides where the grain runs out. Most of the original sinewed bows had rounded backs, and tapered very gradually from handle to tip, so most of them didn't need sinew on the sides. I put sinew on mine as a safety measure because this stave was not of the best quality.
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The sinew wrapping has dried for a couple days....and I'm getting a little impatient...so I strung the bow with the new string and shot it about 20 times at 12" draw (last night).
Here's the bow braced with the new string:
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-21-08/S4020856.jpg)
Sinew wrapping on the handle area (back):
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-21-08/S4020825.jpg)
Sinew wrapping (belly):
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-21-08/S4020826.jpg)
Upper tip:
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-21-08/S4020827.jpg)
Lower tip:
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-21-08/S4020828.jpg)
Braced view from one end:
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-21-08/S4020831.jpg)
Brace height 4-1/2":
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-21-08/S4020852.jpg)
OK, 1st reading @ 12" draw:
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-21-08/S4020833.jpg)
2nd reading:
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-21-08/S4020834.jpg)
3rd reading:
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-21-08/S4020836.jpg)
12" draw
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-21-08/S4020838.jpg)
Bow unbraced:
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-21-08/S4020843.jpg)
The last reading @12" draw was on Oct 11 (reply #65)......and was 27.8 lb.
Currently the draw weight @12" is 29.3 lb.....gain of 1.5 lb.
(This data was corrected on 11-19-08. I previously showed no increase in draw weight)
Weight (mass) of bow: 14.55 oz.
Mass before sinew was 12.9 oz.
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-21-08/S4020844.jpg)
Mass of string: 174 grains (0.4 oz).
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-21-08/S4020847.jpg)
Strings should be no more than 3 grains per 10# of draw weight (TBB).
So, a 55lb bow should have a string of no more than 165 grains.
This string is 61" long but the nock-to-nock measurement is 46".
So.....the actual working part of the string is lighter than 174 grains:
174/61=2.85 grains per inch x 46"=131 grains. This is well under the 3 grains per 10# limit.
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-21-08/S4020853.jpg)
There's already a little wear on the loop from bracing/unbracing.
It usually doesn't get much worse than this.
The loop area is pretty thick anyway and can handle the wear.
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-21-08/S4020850.jpg)
I'm going to let the bow dry for another week before I mess with it again. ;D
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The next thing to consider, at this point, is the final look of the bow. I'm thinking of going with a replica of a Blackfeet bow that I saw in Jim Hamm & Steve Allely's book (It's listed as Blackfoot in the book). Here's a picture of that same bow (?) from the Division of Anthropology (AMNH) site:
(It's listed as a Blackfeet bow on the AMNH site)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-21-08/blackfeetbow113cm.jpg)
Dimensions:
L = 113cm (44-1/2" tip to tip)
W = 8.2cm (3-1/4" from back of bow to string)
H = 3.2cm (1-1/4" wide at the handle)
The bow appears to be painted black (or brown) with red bands....with a braided hair ornament tied to the upper tip.
(The AMNH site says that there is a skull "carving" with the bow. I guess there is a small carved skull effigy hanging alongside the braided hair?)
Anyway, I'll need to cut off the extra wood from the upper tip of my bow so that it will look more like the one in the photo.
I will also make a quiver similar to the one in the photo.
Whatcha think?
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Hey Pat, looking good and killer build-along. I have another question: Are the shoulder knocks permanent? Or are you going to carve knocks? The Blackfeet replica in the foto looks like it has shoulder knocks like what you're doing, that's the reason I ask.
~~Papa Matt
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Thanks. ;D
The shoulder nocks on my bow are permanent. I usually don't carve nocks into my juniper bows anyway.
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While the sinew on the bow is curing, I'm going to start working on some arrows. Here's a pic of a set of actual Blackfeet arrows (from AMNH site):
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-21-08/blackfeetarrows66cm.jpg)
They are 66cm long (26"), with iron arrowheads, eagle feathers?, and red paint over the sinew wraps. The shaftments appear to be painted red and yellow. I don't see any shaft grooves (lightning marks).
I will be using privet shafts with goose feather fletching and steel points. For now, I'll straighten the shoots, make the arrowheads, mix up the paint (fish glue + pigment), and trim the feathers. I mix the paint in small amounts (in a small container like a bottlecap) and then let it dry...then I re-wet the paint and apply like regular watercolor.
I'll post pics of the process for making the arrows (to match the bow) if anyone's interested.
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I've made arrows like these before, with goose fletching. Is it just me (us), or do the goose feathers really seem to look good on long-fletched arrows?
~~Papa Matt
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Yep, long goose feather fletching looks really good.
I think I'm going to glue down the feathers on these Blackfeet replicas (the fletchings in the picture appear to be glued down). Usually, on plains arrows, I just wrap the ends of the feathers. Either way works for me. ;D
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Using a ruler to measure the arrows on my computer screen (and using ratios to convert to actual size), I get the following measurements:
Shaft = 61cm (24")
Fletching = 15.5cm (6-1/4")
Length of Arrowhead (without tang) = 6.6cm (2-5/8")
Width of Arrowhead = 1.9cm (3/4")
Wrapping below arrowheads and in front of feathers = 3.9cm (1-1/2")
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Pat when you get this all done, I'd be real interested in seing how the bow performs, because I've always wondered about longer distance shots with plains double-curve bows. I know they were used mostly on horseback, and in the close-range buffalo hunt. But I'm curious to see how they might perform out to say 25 yards with that real long fletching. Even more so due to the fact that your actual brace height is short due to the reflex in the handle. I always hate it when I drag fletching backwards over my hand or an arrow rest during draw, but unless a person engineers the draw to where the feathers don't touch during draw, that's what will happen with long fletch and a short BH.
Do you have an opinon, or knowledge on this Pat?
~~PM
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Matt,
I know what you mean....the feathers will drag across the bow (and my hand) when I draw the bow. But it doesn't bother me.
There's a couple things I do to reduce the effect of the feather drag:
Fletch the arrow with soft feathers and/or rub my finger back and forth across the offending feather to "soften" it up.
As far as long distance flight, it's a matter of simple physics (is there such a thing?) Basically, the faster the arrow leaves the bow the further it will go. The drag caused by the long fletchings also affects flight, but the same arrow fired from a fast bow will still fly further than if fired from a slow bow. Also, shorter bows tend to be slower than longer bows of the same draw weight and draw length. So....it's pretty obvious that short bows are not designed for long distance flight.
That said, there's no reason why a short bow can't be made stronger so that it can launch an arrow faster and, therefore, further. There are some Plains Indian bows that are quite powerful...I've heard upwards of 80lbs in some accounts. Whether these were designed to be more effective at killing buffalo or killing an enemy at a distance is anybody's guess.
One thing stands out, though: on all plains arrows, the fletchings are cut short. I've seen some as short as 3/16". This reduces drag quite a bit.
I don't have the space to test the arrows in long flight, but I can tell you from experience that long-flecthed arrows fly very well at shorter distances. And I prefer long, short-trimmed fletchings over shorter, tall-trimmed fletchings any day.
And I will definitely test the performance of this bow. I think I like testing my bows more that I like making them.....maybe. ;D
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Jackcrafty,
I would like to say your work is very impressive. I aspire to such work. i have a question, can a 44" hickory double curve be a self bow or at that length is sinew essential? Thanks
'
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Tsa yo ga, thanks ;D
Hickory works very well for self bows. Sinew is not needed on a 44" hickory bow unless you have cut through the grain on the back of the bow. If you peel off the bark without damaging the wood underneath, the exposed wood is the back of the bow.
If you make the bow wide and flat, and with a bendy handle, a 44" hickory self bow can be safely drawn to 22". You may need to slightly recurve the tips to prevent the string from sliding off the tips.
The yellow bow in the picture below (on the tillering stick) is a hickory self bow that I made (no sinew backing).
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/10-11-08-2/S4020676.jpg)
I don't have the exact dimensions with me right now but here they are as I remember:
Length = 46"
Nock to Nock = 45"
Handle Width = 1"
Max Handle Thickness = 7/8"
Max Width of Limbs = 1-1/2"
Tip Width = 1/2"
Tip Thickness = 1/4"
Draw Weight = 45lb @ 22"
The handle is offset and the arrow pass is at the center of the bow. Hope this helps. ;D
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Wow, thanks for the input. I may have knicked the grain, I don't yet know hickory well enough to know if it is enough to have damaged it. The piece in question is naturally bent in a shallow c, I was thinking i could just rough it out and steam the handle put a slight set back into it. I have yet to accomplish a finished bow with a proper tiller. I have read that all plains bows were not perfectly. I'm not trying to find a cop out, but can I get away with it too?
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Hickory is very forgiving of small flaws. I think you'll be fine.
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Yeah, if it's a small knick, you should be alright.
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Cool, that's what I was hoping to hear. Now I will rough it out, and then put in the set back handle section with steam. I am still not clear about how to post pics as computers are not my forte. If I can get this to work out I will be very happy. Ya'll are good mentors, I'm hoping it will rub off just a little.
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I think I have noticed that your bows are rectangular in crosssection. with my hickory stave, I would leave the back as is, rounded. Is this correct?
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Yes, I prefer a rectangular cross section. However, I don't remove the crown from the back of the bow. If I start with a small diameter sapling, the cross section will semi-circular. If I start with a large diameter log, and split out a stave, the cross section will be rectangular.
Hickory does well with either cross section (yes, leave the back rounded. ;D)
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Thanks for the quick reply! When bending the handle, what method do you use. I have yet to make forms and have limited clamps. I was thinking of doing the old timey way, maybe stand on it or strap it down in the middle somehow? thanks again for everyones patience with a greenhorn.
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After steaming, I bend the bow with my knee and pull back on the limbs. I hold the bow in position until it cools (about a minute or so). Then I tie a cord to both tips so that the bow looks braced...except in reverse. I leave it this way for several days...or until the hickory is dry. Then I steam and shape the limbs....again using my knee. I also use a "bow wrench" that is similar to an arrow straightening tool but much bigger (It's just a section of a 5" diameter log with a notch cut in the side).
I have to admit, though, the hickory I've used has not held reflex very well....especially in the handle.
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When you get to this step, is the bow basicly roughed out? I think I read that you do not get the tiller completely finished before bending, or do you do that after its bent. If it holds some bend i'll be happy, even if it shoots i'll still be happy.
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Yes, the bow is roughed out before bending. I personally like to get it roughed out as close as possible to the final dimensions.
I rough out the bow, then I floor tiller it (to get it bending enough to be braced without difficulty), then I shape (bend) the bow, then let it dry out (several days, weeks, or months), then finish tillering.
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interesting method there. I my self do so that I rough the bow out to rough dimensions and let it dry for a month or more. then I rough it out completely and start floor tillering. then to the long string and the to brace and then to final tillering.
but hey, do it as you see best :)
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Finnish, it's true, my method is different.
When I first started making bows, I knew nothing about tillering.....and my bows were basically bent sticks. Then, after reading books, articles, and forums I made bows using the method you described. After a while, however, I began to see that I was not able to get good results with certain bow designs that placed a lot of stress on the wood. The short, double curve design is one of them....especially when trying to make reproductions.
The first stress that the bow has to endure is the drying process. Thinner pieces dry faster, and with less checking, than thicker pieces. That's why I rough out and floor tiller the bow when it's green. I low-brace the green bow and check for smooth bends in the limbs. I also remove remove snakey bends in the stave at this point, and align the tips. (I know that snakey bows work fine, but again, I'm making reproductions....and I haven't seen any snakey NA bows.) I start with the straightest staves I can find, in any case. After getting the limbs bending evenly at a low brace, the bow is thin and very close to final dimensions. It will dry out easily from this point onward.
I let the bow rest for a day after floor tillering & low-bracing, but not more than a week, before I steam bend the handle and limbs into the classic double curve shape. Some of the corrections from the previous bending/tillering may have undone themselves....and I take this time to re-correct those. A floor tillered bow is a lot less stressed during this process compared to a bow that is merely roughed out. The wood is easier to bend....and maintains the corrections better.
Then I let the bow dry out completely.
After the bow is dry, I use dry heat to make any further corrections, then apply sinew, let the sinew dry, and finish tillering.
I don't use a long string for tillering anymore, I use a slightly slack string...and I use it mainly to check on the draw weight of the bow @12". If I see a large flaw in the bending of the limbs, I'll make the correction at this point. Usually, at this stage, the bow is not pulling anywhere near the final design weight @12". Normally, bow makers will draw the bow back to a point where the design weight is reached, remove wood, and draw again to design weight, remove wood, etc. until the desired draw length is reached. I don't do this anymore. I use a chart to tell me if I'm on track to hit the draw weight at the final draw length. This places less stress on the wood, helps prevent hinges, and helps prevent problems with the handle reflex pulling out.
It takes some experience to get to know how to floor tiller the green stave so that it can be braced (when dry) and not be too weak. :)
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Wow! Thank you for sharing the information that you have learned about these bows!
Mitakuye Oyasin!
(We are all related!)
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Orcbow...you're welcome. And I noticed you were up late last night? Good. I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one losing sleep because of this obsession. ;D
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Yes I stay up late, sometimes that's the only time I get to myself. I am getting ready to start my Aragorn's Moria bow, it will be quite a bit like these bows you have made, but not double curved. I really liked getting some more info on sinew backing from you. That's going to be helpful. Winter is the time to make sinew-backed bows in Indiana, since the humidity really goes low and stays for a few months.
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Orcbow, I'd be very interested in seeing your version of Aragorn's bow. I've wanted to make one myself...and now that I've got more experience I think I'll make one soon.
The three main questions I will need to decide on are bow weight, material, and brace height. The size is pretty obvious. What are your thoughts?
Legolas's bow was probably a lot more powerful than Aragorn's....there are at least two times where Legolas nails an orc in the skull....whereas Aragorn tended to shoot at the neck. I would estimate Aragorn's Moria bow at about 70#....and Legolas' Moria bow at twice that.
The material might have to be ipe or some other tropical wood that allows for a very narrow profile....probably backed and then coated with black pitch for waterproofing. The only puzzling thing is the thick tips. (You can get away with extremely narrow tips with ipe). Hmmmm.....I might try juniper just for grins. ;D
The brace height seems high (from what I remember).....maybe 6" or 7"?
Overall, his outfit resembles Plains Indian style equipment.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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I think you are right on with the weights on those bows, I think that some of Legolas's long shots would only be possible with a bow up in that range. Personally, I would not want to be in that situation in the Tomb of Balin with less than a 70 # bow. But of course, it is a movie, still it's a fun exercise to try to do the bow design work. Aragorn's bow is really quite narrow in some of the views of it (I would guess 5/8-3/4" wide)
The brace height is quite high, probably to help prevent wrist slap, when dry firing. 7" easily. But it looks different in different parts of the movie.
The best view of the bow comes from a scene just after Gandalf falls into the pit after the Balrog. That's the view were I got a good scale sketch. I came up with 42" long. Unfortunately I could not find any screen shots of that scene.
I am going to try cypress actually. And sinew back it. It may not make 70# though.
(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e279/bonney-weyers/Aragorn_grass.jpg)
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That's an awesone picture....it really shows his equipment in good perspective. I had forgotten how the fletching looked like....looks like spiral wrapped and somewhere between 3" and 4". The arrowhead looks really long and narrow....a bodkin type?
With a 42" bow, I think we can get a 22" draw with the right backing...and you're right, the 70# weight will be a challenge.
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OK...I think we digress here. >:D
We've finished the move into our new house, so.......this weekend will be the first time in a couple weeks that I will have time to get back to work on the double curve bow. I'm going to make a test arrow, shoot the bow, do the final tillering, record the stats, and apply the finish. Cross my fingers and hope there are no interuptions..... ;)
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Yes ,I think its a digression, but bringing it back to your original subject, I think its fair to compare this fantasy bow to a plains style bow. I will start a post of my own soon about this bow. Thanks for humoring me with this little side discussion!
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Any time Orcbow! I look forward to your post.
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Aragorns bow is hard to find good photos of. I have been trying to find some myself to make it. In the movie it seems pretty powerful for such a small bow, he took a deer with it, and shot orks at retarded ranges. The bow itself looks really pretty to boot. This should be a lot of fun.
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Last night I finished tillering the bow. It didn't need much....just a slight bit of wood was removed from the belly of the upper limb to remove a flat spot. I'll take pics tonight or tomorrow.
For now, I'll post some data. Here are the draw weights of the bow during construction (in chronological order):
October 5th (reply#57), Draw weight = 29.8# @ 12" (after 1st layer of sinew dried)
October 5th (reply#58), Draw weight = 27.9# @ 12" (after initial tillering)
October 11th (reply#65), Draw weight = 27.8# @ 12" (after sinew dried for 1 week)
October 21st (reply#58), Draw weight = 29.3# @ 12" (after second course of sinew dried for two days)
November 18th (last night), Draw weight = 33.7# @ 12" (before final tillering and after sinew dried for about 1 month)
November 18th (last night), Draw weight = 30.3# @ 12" (after final tillering)
November 18th (last night), Draw weight = 30.2# @ 12" (after slight exercising - i.e. drawing bow 25 times)
Draw weight = 52.4# @ 18". The final draw length will be 20" but I will exercise the bow out to 21". It should be close to 60# @21"......almost reaching the final draw weight that I planned for this bow.
Mass of bow on October 21st = 14.55 oz.
Mass of bow on November 18th = 14.15 oz.
As you can see, the draw weight has increased due to the sinew. This is a surprise for me, as I have not seen this before. I thought about this last night (i.e. lost about an hour of sleep ::) ) and I think it has to do with the change in my environment.....it's really dry here in West Texas. Prior to this, I built all my bows in a high humidity environment, and without a hot box or moisture meter. The layer of sinew is about 1/16" thick and increased the draw weight by about 13%! (from 29.3# to 33.7# after a month of drying)
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Final tiller.
(picture is a view of bow drawn to 18").
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/11-20-08/DSC_0188.jpg)
I have not exercised the bow out to 20" yet.....and I won't take a picture at full draw (when the bow is on the tillering stick). Normally, I don't hold the bow at full draw for more than second or two.
I shot the bow last night several times with a test arrow. It's very fast but has a little more hand shock than I expected. I will chronograph the speed later.
Now I will focus on improving my finger strength (this bow is more powerful than my other bows) and applying the finish.
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Nice....I am impressed!!!!
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(Deep Breath)......Well guys, looks like this project is another one for the history books. I broke the bow while exercising it (a couple weeks ago). :-\ Here are some pics of the break:
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/12-07-2008-broken/DSC_0352.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/12-07-2008-broken/DSC_0353.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/12-07-2008-broken/DSC_0354.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/12-07-2008-broken/DSC_0355.jpg)
I tried to get a close-up of the break area....you can see a small knot in the back....and this, I think, was the cause of the break.
The knot is a bit too large to be on the bow's back (although I hoped that being near the handle wood reduce the risk) and there wasn't enough sinew to strengthen the weak spot. Combined with the dry air, the bow was probably destined to fail.
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/12-07-2008-broken/DSC_0362.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/12-07-2008-broken/DSC_0363.jpg)
I had an antique finish on it and everything! Oh well.....here's a couple pics in the sunlight....
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/12-07-2008-broken/DSC_0367.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/12-07-2008-broken/DSC_0368.jpg)
Well. normally what I do when this happens is pack up everything and move on to the next project. The following pics show the progress on the arrow and steel arrowhead....
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/12-07-2008-broken/DSC_0373.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/12-07-2008-broken/DSC_0375.jpg)
Inserted goose fluffs:
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/12-07-2008-broken/DSC_0377.jpg)
Views of swallowtail nock and rear of fletching (goose wing):
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/12-07-2008-broken/DSC_0378.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/12-07-2008-broken/DSC_0381.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/12-07-2008-broken/DSC_0384.jpg)
Close-ups of hammered nail for arrowhead (after flattening, I shape the point with a grinder and file):
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/12-07-2008-broken/DSC_0379.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/12-07-2008-broken/DSC_0382.jpg)
Close up of tapered wood tip.
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/12-07-2008-broken/DSC_0380.jpg)
I shot the arrow without fletching in order to match it to the bow.....then painted it with red and yellow ochre pigments, and then fletched it. The feathers are not glued down and are bound with sinew and are folded forward at the rear.
OK....I'm going to attempt another build along soon after Christmas. Same design, same everything except the bow wood will be red oak.
I guess I'm a glutton for punishment..... ;D
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I started out with my first two bows made of hickory, tillering somewhat extremely rounded and high in the center of the belly. These were short D bows. I am leaning a little towards flat, but am wandering what the result will be. Does anyone have any experience with this subject?
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Keep searching. There are many posts on D-bows. Look for "half-eye".
A hickory bow does better with a rounded back and flat belly.