Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Shooting and Hunting => Topic started by: ozy clint on October 31, 2008, 09:29:54 pm
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i've asked this question on a traditional forum and it seems that nobody knows if it's been done or if it is possible. is it possible to make a point/arrow combo tough enough for this task? what selfbow weight would you consider to be the minimum? primitive buffulo... sounds like the ultimate test of equipment. BTW if it's been done, any photos?
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I've never heard of it in modern times and doubt the regulations in Africa would permit it.
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hmmmm, interesting lets just say that it would be legal what it would it take to get the job done.
large tough beast of a creature with a bad enough attitude to charge and kill ya when hes in a good mood. rifles are hard enough to kill one of them with, so lets think about it for a bit here.
me first off o would learn too shoot one of them monster poundage warbows. get me some seriously heavy arrows for good penetration,have the greatest knapper alive
make some of ther finest points from the best rock and large enough to do the most damage and still allow good pentaration.
then i would hire me someone else to due the hunt for me cause i still wouldnt want to piss one of them off with a bow and arrow lol. i know how bad i would be shaking getting close enough to one of them to attempt it, my arrow would probably hit him in the hinnie when i aimed at the shoulder.
i think it has been done with wheelie equipment, inkow some of them co.'s make safari type equipment.
next time i talk to BJ from BJ outdoors i'll ask him. he does alot of africa guided hunts for his show.
yup this is gonna be a good thread i believe.
tim
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then i would hire me someone else to due the hunt for me cause i still wouldnt want to piss one of them off with a bow and arrow lol.
tim
Tim, I volunteer, let me know when you get the hunt booked. ;D
I know it has been done with Traditional equipment in the rescent past. I would do it in a heart beat. I want a 90# bow and I already have the 900 grain shafts. They recommend a 2 blade so it can slide between the ribs so a stone point would be just great. Justin
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If I did it, I would want to be soooo, close, butt leaking, close, to make a good shot. :-\ And soooo, hidden that the big brute thought some big bug stung him. If not, I think you would be stomped in some deep Water buffalo Doo-Doo.
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Buffallo dont just toss ya! They toss ya, then when you land gore ya over 100 times then role thier shoulder into ya untill there is nothen left but goo and then wear the rest as bug repellent! Just gota love a beasty that goes in for over kill like that!!!! ;D
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David, read above, about Doo-doo. ;D
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ROFLMOA with tears in my eyes,those last couple of post were hilarious
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Eddie I think your the Man for the job and Tiller can be the camera man . Just sneak in close,buttLeaking close, and pretend them big black testicles hanging there are your favorite kick bag. :o When you get his full attention then you just got to be able to out run Tiller ;D >:D
You will have the title for kicking the baddest ^&* around and David will get nationally recognized for the first point blank footage of the water buffalo doo doo dance :D
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looks like a world 1st may be up for grabs here!! i want in!! just have to learn how to make a biiggggggg selfbow and how to shoot it, how to knapp, how to make primitive arrows and i'm there. 10 years should do it. LOL. seriously i may have just set a 'before i die' goal. this would be one hell of an acheivement.
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Guys thats the funniest thing I've seen on here in a while I could just picture DT holding a camera bobbin around like crazy while he runs like mad and squeals like a little girl in a horror house.While someone else runs ahead of him yelling faster faster you fool you fool.
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I would be scared of a stone point failing on such a tough and dangerous beast. Now a heavy self bow and one of my heavy ashby style trade points on a heavy, and properly designen shaft should be do able. Like Justin said I know it has been done with trad. gear. This trade point is besides a 190 gr. grizlzly for comparison and weighs in at about 300 grains. 7/8 inch wide and three inches long, single bevel edge and made from a thick saw blade. Kenneth
Stone points killed mastadons dead as yesterday's news ! I would be afraid of steel failing. C'mon guys where is yer sense of adventure ? ;D ;D....bob
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THE ELEPHANT STORY
Howard Hill has been asked many times to tell the facts on bagging an elephant with a bow and arrow.
Following is a list of questions and answers.
How many elephants did you bag? 3
How many arrows did it take for all three? 4
How heavy a bow did you use? 115 lbs.
Was this a hand drawn bow? Yes
Did you use an explosive tip or poison on the tip of the arrow? No
How long an arrow did you use? 41" with a special designed broadhead
How much did the broadhead weigh? 1700 grains
How much penetration did you get? 31.5"
Where is the best place to hit an elephant? Between the ribs into the heart or lungs
How much did the elephant weigh? 10,000 lbs.
This is off the Howard Hill Archery web sight. I think if it can work on an elephant it should work on a water buffalo. Joel
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I agree with Deerhunter. We can put a head cam on Eddie, and wire him up for sound, and put him in a pair of camo depends, and some sneakers, and spray him with cow in heat juice, and send him on his way. Man that didn't make for a pretty visualization!Actually the Water buffalo's usually hit you with their chests first, then they go to hooking and mashing. Of course if they see Eddie, and start in his general direction, and get a whiff of him, they might think it had already been done, some time back. I know I sure wouldn't want to be twenty five yards from one with only a bow and arrow! I would definitely leave a very distracting and confusing scent mark , as he arrived at the site,where I once was......
Wayne
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;D ;D ;D I wanna go watch this when y'all do it. Then I'll go hunt impalas or duikers or something that won't kill you. ;D ;D I've seen several sets of footage of people killing cape buffalo with a compound bow, so I'm sure it could be done with a selfbow. Howard Hill and Fred Bear, Pope and Young, all killed a pile of big mean nasty critters with stickbows-I'd just as soon pop a buffalo with an arrow as a lion, grizzly or polar bear. Our great-great-great (add fifty more greats here) grandpas all dispatched big beasts that would stomp you into doodoo or eat you with stone points. A buffalo sure isn't any more tough or dangerous than a mammoth, mastadon, wooly rhino, aurochs, sabertooth cat, cave lion, short-face bear, or any of a number of big ill-tempered critters that they got their weekly groceries from. A big rhyolite point would get the job done, and it won't bend when it hits a rib like the metal point will.
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Guys thats the funniest thing I've seen on here in a while I could just picture DT holding a camera bobbin around like crazy while he runs like mad and squeals like a little girl in a horror house.While someone else runs ahead of him yelling faster faster you fool you fool.
Would that person be from Georgia by any chance and squealing even louder???? ;D
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If it breathes, sticks and stones can kill it ;D I wanna try.. HAWK
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But, Hawk the idea is to eat the herbavor not be worn by it!!!
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You guys are a bunch of little girls. ::) Cape buffalo have a sweet spot that when shot broadside will allow the arrow to pass clear through punching both lungs and possibly the top of the heart. Of course you want a large point since a buffalo can live for a day if you shoot it through both lungs with a small diameter broadhead. :o Justin
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okay, if you think it can be done, what would your setup be? selfbow? bow with a backing of some sort? what type of stone? what head design? etc, etc. this has really got me intigued. i'm definatly going to look into it seriously.
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95# or more. I would use a selfbow just so people are sure it wasn't some FG abomination. >:D I am trying to find another piece of Ipe that is suitable for the job. Salt Cedar shoots make a super heavy shaft, I have some that are 900 grains. I also might make tapered shafts from Jatoba or Ipe to increase the weight. For the points I would probably go 1 1/4" wide with a steep angle. Guys who have shot them with compounds have had better luck with steeper angle broadheads. I would make the points from the stone I got from Cowboy since it is harder than steel anyway. ;) I have been looking into this for some time and I am going to do it. It is just a matter of finding the time and the money at the same time. ;D Justin
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yelling faster faster you fool you fool.
I think I just peed myself a little recognizing that quote from my childhood....10th Street Bridge, Bill Cosby!
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okay, if you think it can be done, what would your setup be?
At the risk of sounding like a know-it-all.....I've got two words.....atlatl dart >:D
Google mammoth hunting. Lot's of good theories there.
I wouldn't try this on my own, in any case. Might even try driving the buffalo into water or (over a cliff) to slow it down. ;D
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Long range and .50 cal! Or .45-110!!!
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A10 Warthog with the depleted uranium shells and a second Warthog to back my shot.
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It would be more appealing if I hadn't read all those Peter Hathaway Capstick books......;D
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Me too Steve! You ever read his last book he wrote? What a wild man!
I especially like the one where he is big game hunting in his suburban home near the trash dump! A little hamburger meat, an air rifle with scope and voila! Instant urban big game hunting!!! ;D
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I still want to shoot a T Rex, but since they're not around anymore, I guess that would work ;D.
My 76# bow and light, 600 grain arrows hits really hard as is, even at 50 yards (after a while, I've punched a whole through our 2x4 back stop with .38 special blunt arrows). For elephant, buffulo, and other big beasties, something 85-100# with 850-1000 grain arrows would work. Mainly for elephant, as I'm convinced my 76# bow would kill a buffulo and anything else around htat size. As for points, I'd have to use whatever I can get from some other knappers. I only know how to make trade points, and that's not really stone, is it :P?
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How the he^^ I get picked for this? Okay, I'll do it ;D. Let's take up a collection for the plane ticket and permits, I have the passport and I'll pay for the VISA. :) Did you ever hear the one about the Grizzly Guide that carried a 22 pistol for a back-up gun?, all he had to do was shoot the hunter in the foot and run like hell. >:D
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I gues I've been volanteered for the camera man position! Can you pay for an extra ticket and expenses for a camera man Eddie? If so I'm in! ;D
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d.tiller i have a feeling your the one thats gonna get shot in the foot lol
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HAH... i just read this thread. lol..
Tiller if your the camera man i dont reckon Eddie would ever get a shot, because you smell to sweet.
or maby water buffalo like sweet smelling men from the NW.
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I'll be smelling better than Eddie if we smother him in Cape Buf. masking scent! ;D
Nah! I'll make up a special scented soap just for the hunt.
As to being the one shot in the foot....Who do you think will be carying the back up artillary? It wont be a piddly little .22 eather!!! :o
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I've heard some where that Tiller has a collection of cow dung ::) I think that makes him the community expert to witness the doo doo dance up close. :D
Eddie your probably the olny one in the community that has enough kin folk in primitive archery to give the moral support and backing needed for the challenge and retalliation if things go sideways :o
All in favor of a Mullet /Tiller ballet :o :o
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Aye! You have my vote. Poor ol Buffalo doesn't have a chance......With all the strange odors, he won't be able to decide be in love, or barf. Don't let them Brow beat you Eddie! ;D :D
Wayne
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I'm sure it could be done. Just use a powerful bow and heavy shafts. I've heard of guys hunting asian water buffalo with shafts made of Ipe and were shooting recurves pulling 70-80 lbs. For the stone point, I'd prefer a thicker point made of some raw, tough stone (no cooked stone here). You want strength, so you need strong stone. I'll bet you could do it though. It would take commitment and practice to be able to shoot a bow of such power with accuracy, but I say DO IT!! Then write an article to Outdoor life and call all those other wheelie bow fanatics a bunch of pencil pushin' pansies who wear ladies undies and smell like rose farts!!
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What do you say Tiller? I bet Calendargirl and Sarah would sponsor it , ya know. ;D I got the plane tickets and the 22, you bring the soap and a good camera. 8)
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Eddie, save me a ticket. Maybe I could hit something that big.........;D
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Roses have farts?
I have seen bees ignore a rose before, but I never knew why. Hmm, who would of thought...... ;D
Wayne
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Eddie, you think they would go for it? You hunt the Cape Buffalo and I will film it. I get to carry the .22 though!!!! ;D
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All who is willing could donate $20 bucks to the Eddie , Tiller safari.
Hell I'd do it.
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How about we both take a buff and both film it being done?
All right guys! Anty up!!! ;D
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I think the safari films are usually done first, and then they are sold to a buyer......Wouldn't want my safari money to go for new bow wood, tools, land leases, zombie movies, beer,and such. I think it would make a great tragic comedy. Why just the look on the faces of the native bearers, would be worth the price of admission. Not to mention the look of satisfaction on the Buffalo! I think it would probably be the first time anyone has seen a buffalo actually grin! At first they might mistake his rolling in the dirt on his back as just getting a dust bath, till see the grin, and the tears coming out his eyes. The cost of native bearers would be a profit actually, as I do believe they would pay to be able to see this. Of course crowd control would probably be a problem also. Might have to do this at night. But that might be fire hunting......but it is a "Primitive" style hunt. Hmm, might just be worth while to invest in something like. I could do interviews......"Yes sir, I knew one of em. No sir, I don't have any idea why they would do that. No sir, I don't know what they did with the remains. But there is supposed to be a rather green spot of vegatation, where all this happened. No sir, I guess it must've been from some fertilizer dumped in that spot. Yeah, I could probably get you pictures of them before they went over there. Might not be exactly in their favor though, they are in their hunting get up, and they have ......"wood bows, and arrows, and the arrows, have stone points, that are tied on, and glued. Yes sir, that is what they went after the buffalo with. I don't know where they got that idea. Probably something off the internet. No sir, I don't know if they did drugs. Not before they went over there anyway. Well I can't say for sure, because they were in the sixties, and I can show you a web site, about Eddie, and well since Tiller hung out with him, well you know what they say about feathers on birds. What, oh, sorry, I had a seed pop, here let me put this out, I'll save that little bit for later, oh, what were we talking about? oh, yah, you know what they say about people who hang out together. No, No, not that, you know being alilke and such. Yes sir, you're welcome, that will five dollars, cash please. "
Wayne
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stickbender,
thats funny
and it is true what they say about birds of a feather ;D ;)
peace,
tim
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Heck! I resemble that!!!
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:D :D :D That there's funny
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ::)
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Any resemblance to actual people is purely intentional. ( In a kind way of course ) It is uh......litterary license so to speak......I don't want to see any arrows sticking out of my truck tires.
Wayne
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having hunted with eddie several times, i think i'll tag along to let eddie know when it's dead. eddie has a habit of running up to "dead" animals that are still standing and snapping their teeth. if eddie's hunting with stone, better give him two arrows. the first will hit the buf square in the a$$. ;D
but seriously, one of jame's 400gr. rhyolite points with a 900gr. bamboo shaft would more than do the trick. maybe even have james make one of his holmgaurd bows, so if the arrow don't kill him, eddie can at least stab him with the bow. james has been known to do that with deer.
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Sounds good! How about we just supply eddie with a thong so's he can wait in a tree and jump on the buff and strangle it to death! Now that would be something to get on tape!!! :o
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Tiller, who are you going to get to film Eddie in a thong, climbing a tree. It is not a pretty mental picture, let alone a video...... Especially filming from the ground up while he is climbing......;D......I guess I better be a little more gentle, he is my pusher after all. ;D
Wayne
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I could wear my new Kilt ;D
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Aye, Laddy, that y'could, jes be sure ye cross ye legs, ya donna wan ta scare the kids now do ya?
Wayne
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I think we have a plan! ;D
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So if Eddie wears his kilt, does he have to use an English style long bow? And would it be legal to use the bag pipes to stop the bull in his tracks? I personally love the pipes. My Dad, on the other hand, said they sounded like a bag full of cats. I hope his kilt is plaid and not a leopard print. God, I was just envisioning him in leopard print thong! But kilt would be just fine, and somewhat more manly, especially if he wears the bearskin pouch, and his sgian dubh in his stocking garter. Now that would be worth filming, seeing a grown man in a plaid skirt running for his life as an enraged buffalo with an arrow through his tail, is closing in on him. I somehow have this vision of an Ostrich on speed, or a coot running across the water, before take off. ;D But I do have to give im is due. The Lad would most likely be goin for it, if it was offered, and quite possibly run up to it, without waiting, like a good lad, and not notice the rest of the herd, like Mechslasher said. Personally me thinks ye would have to be a bit daft, to go nicking about the countryside, in a kilt, let alone thwack a full grown Buffalo, with a home crafted bow and arrow. Personally,if it were me, and if and when I was somewhat close, I would just as well say, Afternoon Argus, and cheerio old Chap,Ta Ta, and all that rot, don't ya know. By Gad, that is big cow! Well Governor, that is just me own opinion, as I know he is quite capable of crafting a bow and arrow to do the job quite properly, and could jolly well it is mark. I don't know if it would be the correct mark, but by Jove, there is quite a lot of mark to hit on a Buffalo, don't you know, and I would bet me bally hat, that he would go through with it. Well sorry about the British bit, but it seems a bit o me British ancestry has crept through. Perhaps, since he would be wearing a Kilt, I coulda had used a moorrr Scot-ish Accent, sted o the British one. But nae, I used the British one, being as how that is the source of me ancestry, from a beautiful, and quaint little town called " Wooten Under Edge ". Nice rolling hills, and Flint every where, really, really nice flint. Dark blue, light blue, and black! The beaches a Bog Nor Regis are covered with round nodes of it. Anywho, lets take up a collection to send Eddie and Tiller to Africa, to harass a Buffalo, and try to out run it. I bet Eddie could climb a thorn tree with no problems. He would probably take his kilt off and throw it in the Buff's face, and get away that way. Oooh, there's that vision bit again! ;D We might have to grade it as PG13 or so, to keep " the wee, ones from being traumatized, by the sight of a Semi naked, semi Scottish Tarzan, running around the bushes, desperately looking for a tree taller than four feet high! " ;D ;D ;D ;D
Wayne
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I'm starting to have second thoughts the way Wayne and David keep talking about wanting to look up my skirt. And checking me out in a thong. I think I'LL CARRY the O:)22.
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Just what are you trying to imply? :-*
Wayne ;D
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:D :D Eddie I would have to agree,,,,,I've been trying to remove the mental image since reading it, ::) Had the makings of a good movie till Tiller decided to cast you with the thong ::) Then Wayne had to distort even more with the leapard print and climbing the tree visual,,,,,,,,,,,,excuse me I need to go have a labotomy to remove those thoughts ???
I'm thinking that you might have better luck with a water baffalo hide and head and sneak in while blending with the herd. You'll just have to draw straws to see who gets the front and who's the ### ;D
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Now that would probably work, except for the lions......Then again the heard might not want such a weird looking buffalo in and amongst themselves......but with his trusty Swedish .22 rifle along just in case......yeah, he should be alright. Lets get the head and hide ready......we could show Eddie knapping some points, and then show Bear Gryllis, eating some live scorpions, and a couple raw snakes, just for effect, and we could stay in his crews motor home while they film Eddie stalking the Buffalo, while Tiller occasionally takes a peek at where they are through that little viewing hole underneath the tail on the hide......Of course, there just might be an old bull in the herd, that might not be able to compete for a mate, any more, and being old, his eyesight might not be so too pretty good, and he just might find such an odd looking buffalo attractive......But......that would be to their advantage, as they could get up REAL close......and personal like...... ;D
Keenan, I think this is going to be a Winning Film. We better all get our penguin suits, and Zorro belts, rented for the Cannes Film Festival. 8) 8) ;D
Wayne
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Now thats just disgusting! ;D
I meant loin cloth! Sorry, my vocabulary is going to hell with lack of sleap. :D
No way your getting me under a buffalo hide with Eddie!!!!! :o
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that made my gut tern.
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I'm Still bringing the 22!
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With you around Eddie I'm bringing the .45-110!!! >:D ;D ;D ;D
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Stone points will make it really hard. I would choose a 70# or higher self or backed bow for buffalo. Maybe 72 to 75 pounds just to be on the safe side. Personally I would prefer Zwickey or Grizzly broad heads because in Africa; stone heads are out of the question.
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Bushman452...........Are stone heads illegal in Africa ?........bob
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Bushman452...........Are stone heads illegal in Africa ?........bob
At one point they were trying to make bowhunting illegal period in one area >:(.
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Bushman452...........Are stone heads illegal in Africa ?........bob
I'm not sure really but with so many thick skinned animals they have to be. Remember it's Africa were talking about and most of the tribes there use steel or iron instead of stone points. Their spears are also crafted in the same way.
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Stone points are definitely legal in South Africa and Namibia. I talked to Paul Brunner, he has taken several animals with stone in South Africa. However, he does not recommend using stone points on buffalo. He thinks they will shatter on the ribs. Justin
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I wouldn't think the ribs on a Cape Buffalo, would be any thicker than an American Bison. The Indians did pretty well with stone points with them. Those that weren't run off of a cliff. I would think an arrow head not quite as thin as is normally used, would hold up quite well. Especially being propelled by a heavy shaft, from a heavy powered bow. 8)
Wayne
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I believe, not positive, that the Cape Buffalo have a shield like boar hogs. Or just a thick layer of skin near the shoulders.
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Overlaping ribs. ;)
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Dang! Well then you could use one of Claude's armor piercing points, he chips. ;D
Wayne
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If you go back far enough probably more water buffs were killed with stone than steel points! Probably more were beat to death with sticks than killed with steel points.
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I am still going to try stone if I ever get to go. Ill just make my points from raw Texas Chert. :o
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Honestly I think stone could do it. I would use thick stone points made from some tough, uncooked stone. You want the point to maintain as much mass and cutting edge as possible. Of course a powerful bow and heavy arrows are definitely called for here. If you've got enough weight for your arrow it will drive that point deep into the vitals. But you'd also have to be close, and even with a double lung shot that beast is gonna take some time to die.
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I would love to make a kill on one of those big bulls with one of Wolf Watchers points.... at about ten yards or so... but would want Jim shockey backing me up with his double rifle for sure... Hawka A/ho
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I think points made from Ryolite, raw coral,or Texas Chert would hold up real well. Stone points were used all over Africa in Prehistoric times. There is plenty in museums in Egypt and Ethiopia that I have seen in books. When Claude VanOrder went to Central Africa a few years ago, around the Congo, he found numerous quarry sites and worked stone with flakes everywhere he said. He has made some really cool looking reproduction Egyptian heads.
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Those Egyptian heads are amazing! I am going to be making some in the future when I get a chance. Just learned how to make expanding notches and the sky's the limit now!
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I think a sharp arrowhead would do the job on a Buff just fine. Remember it's a different set of physics that affect an arrow than a bullet.While the mass of a large animal like a Buff really hinders the shock of a bullet a sharp arrowhead will slice through it. Mind you,your obviously not going to attempt this with a light bow or your going to get the sharp end of the >:D.A fellow I know who hunts large bears regularly says an arrow will kill one much easier than a bullet, you just got to put it in the right place.
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Also, small diameter points just bigger than the shaft will penetrate further than wide points. Wide points create large diameter holes but dont penetrate as far as the smaller ones. Ever see Lakota points for their buff hunting arrows? They were tiny! But, boy oh boy did they punch through a buff to bring them down!!!
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Ozy,
I wish you well in your quest! I'm rootin' for ya! Once you begin your experimenting with stone vs. steel in penetration, keep us posted. This will be quite interesting and possibly, new writing of modern history.
Good luck!
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Ya need to talk to Billy. He has posted some articles in PA on this.
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okay guys i'm starting to think about this a bit more. i have no knapping experience so i need to see what points you would use. so i get an idea of what each design looks like. what stone to use and where i can get some. what self bow wood do you think would yield the most efficient bow for a given poundage. i'm guessing i'll have to work into about 80#. my draw is 28".
i've herd ryolite and raw texas chert mentioned a couple of times. what traits of these materials lend themselves to be recommended here? why raw and not cooked? i'm thinking 1" to 1 1/4" wide is going to optimal for point width. would you haft if differently than normal? i'm thinking that tapering the shaft point more and running the shaft end closer to the tip of the point. basicly a deep notch in the shaft so as to support the point better. what shaft material do you think would be stiff enough to handle a 400gr point out of an 80# selfbow?
what timber and what design would you use to make a selfbow of 80#? considering that performance is paramont! recurve?? reflex/deflex longbow??
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Raw ryolite and Texas chert are hard, cooked is softer. My main concern is strength since I already know stone points are plenty sharp. I would go 1" wide on the points. I don't know if you will get 400 grains, but you might. If you do get 400 grains just remember your arrows will have to be spinned about 25# heavier than normal. I think any selfbow or wood laminate will do the job just fine as long as you make it well. An overbuilt bow is not what I would be carrying. Justin
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Howard Hill used to hunt Buff. and Ellephants with 90# -110# bows
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okay, i shot a cow buffulo on the weekend and i was carrying the testing arrows with me so i was able to get some testing done....
this is her set up for the testing.
(http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd349/ozyclint/DSCF2907.jpg)
shots were taken at 15 meters. the 1st shot penetrated to about an inch behind the back of the point, that equates to about 5-6". it hit a rib and that's as far as it went. as you can see it broke the point off and the hafting was damaged. that brought this arrows testing days to an abrupt halt.
(http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd349/ozyclint/DSCF2908.jpg)
the 2nd arrow also hit a rib with similar a result.
(http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd349/ozyclint/DSCF2909.jpg)
(http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd349/ozyclint/DSCF2910.jpg)
needless to say the testing session was a short one.
so there it is, perhaps the doubters are right. it looks as though taking a water buffulo with a stone point might prove beyond the capabilities of a primitive arrow.
a penny for your thoughts.....
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One day I am going to try it. I have read a lot from the trad shooters and I understand there is a sweet spot. It appears from the picture that you are too far back on your shot. As I remember, you want to be 1/3 of the way up straight above the leg. The ribs behind the leg are considerably thicker.
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Great thread, always exciting to see those kind of tests firsthand with pictures!
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justin, not to take away from you wanting to do it. it would be an awesome achievement, but, i think plenty more testing on downed buff needs to be done before hand. clint's test were pretty conclusive. i'm not sure the sweet spot is going to be so drastically different.
i'd love to see it happen, but at this stage i'm not convinced it's the right thing to do. lets see some more testing first! and whilst stone points are the sharpest edges on earth, we may find they are too brittle to be reliable on such beasts. just my thoughts.
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I would use a different rock for the points. Those points are too brittle, they almost look like they were heat treated. I'd be shooting a 600 to 800 grain arrow also.
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It has been done with wood bows and metal points, so I am 100% convinced that the right stone will do it. Some of Cowboys raw Texas chert.
As for shot placement, I will defer to Paul Brunner, who has shot several water buff and several cape buff.
"Here is what I do on Buff... Go to the ELBOW. Go up from there a good, solid 8 to 10 inches. NOW GO FORWARD AT LEAST 4 INCHES!!!!!!! That is the V formed by the leg bone when it goes up and FORWARD from the elbow and then up and back to the scapula (shoulder blade). This puts your arrow in the CENTER of the lungs where all the arteries bunch up.
DO NOT GO TO THE ELBOW AND BACK...YOU WILL BE SCREWING UP ROYALLY!"
If that doesn't convince you look at this skeleton. The shape and thickness of the ribs make the shot placement obvious.
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justin, i agree with what your saying, and yes i've seen the skelletons and many pictures and autopsy photos. i've also seen the real thing in the wild, close up and personal. i agree that the spot your talking of is the place to aim (ribs are thinner and spaced further plus centre of vitals), but until someone can test successfully on downed beasts i don't think it should be done on live ones. there are still ribs in 'the spot', and the beast clint shot was a cow. not a bull and not a herd bull. big difference there too. would you mind if you only wounded one? say leaving it to suffer a long drawn out death. because to say you would do it anyday means your willing to do so, and you can't be 100% sure of the stones ability unless it's been tried and tested.
don't get me wrong. i hope you get a chance at it some day, and i hope you succeed. but i also hope you or someone has tested first. i'd love a chance at it myself if and when i'm confident it's doable.
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and you can't be 100% sure of the stones ability unless it's been tried and tested.
I completely understand what you are saying, but it is hunting and there is no such thing as 100% sure. I hope you guys keep testing on buff, I don't have that luxury. I have shot through heavy bones to see what would happen. If I got the chance tomarrow the answer is YES, I have enough faith in the stone to take the shot. I would be really picky about the shot, but I would shoot.
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justin that's a fair call.
there is never 100% in hunting, poor comment by me. and i know clints testing wasn't thorough enough to end the argument. he would need hundreds of heads in different shapes, weights, attachments etc to cover all bases. but they do need to be able to withstand a rib or scapular, and at the moment it stands at 100% failure.
i'd like to see some different varieties of stone tested. something less brittle perhaps. would this in turn sacrafice some degree of sharpness?
are there stronger ways of attaching the heads to the shaft? if the stone can handle the bone, it looks like it may be the next weak spot.
anyway, here's hoping it can be done.
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Wow that skeleton says it all, that is suprising to see that much armour on the beast,
I'm familiar with anatomy but I never would have thought they were that strongly constructed,
hats off to the bowyer that takes that beast down:)
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I would think seriously about shooting a heavy, Tonkin cane arrow with a different stone point and at least wrap the sinew an 1 1/2" down the shaft. And make sure the transition from stone, to sinew and to shaft is smooth. Let me talk to Claude VanOrder and see what kind of tough stone point or points he can come up with. I'll donate them to this experiment.
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Jeeesh! Look at them armor plated ribs! Use a .47-70 or bigger rifle!!!
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The lungs really range that far forward?
I think I need some heavy arrows >:D
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Here is a little closer look at the ribs.
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Holy crap... now I really wanna hunt one of those armored warriors. Hawk
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I'm thinking needle nosed bodkins, warbow, this would be like hunting dinosaur:)
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both of these arrows were 760-800grs. as otis said this was a cow who's fibrous skin was ONLY 1/2" thick and who's ribs are lighter! heavy bone is just one factor. remember it's no good just breaching the ribs. you must penetrate another foot after them to reach the the opposite side of the thorax.
my goal was to use a totally primitive arrow, which i did. perhaps more chances of success would be gained if one hafted a stone point onto a steel field point with epoxy, then used it on a skinny carbon. then the only thing left to chance is whether the stone can handle it......reliably!
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I would think that one of Claude Van Order's triangular points, on a tonkin shaft, would penetrate quite well, or even a narrow wedge shaped, and tapering thickness from the point to the back would also be the trick, made out of some cowboy's hard Texas rock. As for reliability, of the attachment of the head, it is reliable. When you can shoot through a big ol hog from a angle, and pass through the hip, and lodge in the opposite shoulder bone, I would think it would hold up quite well. Just do as said and wrap it well, and smooth the transition to the head. I have complete confidence in a stone head. That boy "is" rather well armored. But I don't see the ribs being any thicker than a cow, or an Elk, just a lot wider. So I still think that a good stone point will penetrate, and slice and dice. As for wounding, carry extra arrows of course, and a back up. .45/70 .416 rigby, .458, .375 etc. But I really don't see penetration being a real problem with a good stone head. I am sure Claude can come up with a good design. He is definitely a master knapper.
Wayne
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Wayne, the ribs are much thicker. However, stone points have smashed through femurs and even skulls of pigs, bovine and elk, and kept going. Dr Ashby did studies on lethal shots for buffalo, (not bison). According to the tests, quartering toward you shot right behind the scapula was 100%. broadside was just over 70%.
Here is Dr Ashby's graph.
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You can see that quartering shots clearly let the points slip between the ribs. Soo much testing has been done with metal points, and it is a great place to start with stone.
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I was wondering about a straight on, frontal shot?
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Uh huh, ok, .......
Eddie, I don't know about that! I would think that you would have too small of target area, to get penetration into the vital areas, and the fact that you would be eye to eye, and you would be pretty darn close. :o But if it is you, and you are wearing the kilt, I suppose you could shoot, s#$%, and run, much easier, than with blue jeans on..... ;D You go for it though. But if you do, can I have your tear drop trailer? 8) You wouldn't want Cathy putting it on E-bay :o....Oh, and can I have your .22?, just looking out for your interest you know...... ::), and your stone artifacts, and bows, and arrows, and jeep, and ........ ;D
Wayne
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What guns, bows, arrows? Jeep!, don't know what you mean?
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That frontal kill is perfect for a spear backup. :-*
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I'de like to see that-a hunter facing off a charging buff with a spear:)
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I wonder if those shots are precent recovery of the hunter after that buffulo is done with him :D?
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Zen, go back and look at that African video you posted. Those crazy natives didn't have a problem getting close and sticking it with a spear.
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I didn't post anything re: Buffalo, and one person with a spear facing a charging cape buffalo does not equate to a party of hunters spearing a hippo:) But I suppose a cape buffalo could be taken with a party of spear chuckers, although I would be calling in sick that day myself:)
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I'm wondering id Tiller is still going to wear a loin cloth and lure it into the open for ya eddie >:D
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that might work, Dana. But we know this is the boy's busiest time of the year. ::)
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I'm wondering id Tiller is still going to wear a loin cloth and lure it into the open for ya eddie >:D
The really cool thing is Tiller smells pretty enough that you don't have to worry about the buff smelling you. ::) :-*
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:o
I don't know if it has been posted here yet, but from what I have been told, Cape buffalo have 4 inch wide ribs that almost overlap like scales. It is unlikely that any arrowhead is going to slip between the ribs. To bow kill one I would suggest a very heavy arrow with a very thick bone crushing head.
I was told by a fellow who read up on Mongol war strategy that the way Mongols dispatched elephants was with a solid iron or steel arrow shaft. The head and shaft were on piece of metal. I am not sure if they used fletching, but up close these iron arrows were supposedly able to penetrate the elephant's skull. Being that the arrow must have been extreemly heavy by arrow standards, I suspect that these were close range shots performed in group volleys. This was back in the good old days when men used elephants for war mounts and artillary platforms. The elephants were probably armored at times.
Other than those comments I would only add that I would never hunt a Cape Buffalo with gun, bow or other hand held dispatcher. I might consider an armored vehical, like an abrams tank, etc. Hunting moose is enough for me.
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I hope someone posts some more info on that steel arrow,
that would be an interesting high tech 'dart' coming from a heavy bow:)
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Hermit, go back and read the previous page. And YES, quartering shots can pass between the ribs. We already know that buff can be taken with wood bows with wood arrows and metal points because it has been done. The only question now is which stone and what point design.
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Hmmm. That elephant comment got me thinking. Hill used a fiberglass longbow, 115# at 28" with a 1700 gr aluminum arrow and a larger one of his normal heads (4" long and like 1.5" wide or soemthing). ANyway. He shot one of those into an elephant skull and only got three inches of penetration, and then got 31" on a broad side shot.
For his own buffulo I'm pretty sure he used his regular ~90# hunting bow with ~700 gr cedar arrows. Hmmm... >:D
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buff can be taken with wood bows with wood arrows and metal points because it has been done.
Justin,
re your comment.
i know plenty of cape and asiatic buff have been taken with traditional gear, but, have cape buff been taken with selfbow or wood lam bows?
very interested to hear more? bow type? poundage? arrow weight?
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buff can be taken with wood bows with wood arrows and metal points because it has been done.
Justin,
re your comment.
i know plenty of cape and asiatic buff have been taken with traditional gear, but, have cape buff been taken with selfbow or wood lam bows?
very interested to hear more? bow type? poundage? arrow weight?
Howard Hill took a buffulo with a bamboo laminated longbow (about 90#), cedar arrows (about 700 gr) and a Hill head.
And if anyone is willing to help me pay for tags, I'm gladly try it >:D
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I cant remember where I read them all, but Jeff Challacombe, Alan Perez, used lam wood bows. Paul Brunner used a 74# fg longbow, but used diamond wood arrows.
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I hear you Kegan if it has a heartbeat.. I will hunt it... the meaner the critter the more exciting the adventure..Hawk
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Keegan, was the howard hill a bamboo backed wood lam, or bamboo lam glass bow? he was a strong man hey :)
Justin, are you talking about Jeff Challacombe from oz? as he has not taken one with an all wood, but has seen one hit with a 90# osage selfy that was a mis hit and was finished by rifle.
i don't doubt at all that it can be done, just not sure if it has. plenty have been taken with glass bows.
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Keegan, was the howard hill a bamboo backed wood lam, or bamboo lam glass bow? he was a strong man hey :)
Justin, are you talking about Jeff Challacombe from oz? as he has not taken one with an all wood, but has seen one hit with a 90# osage selfy that was a mis hit and was finished by rifle.
i don't doubt at all that it can be done, just not sure if it has. plenty have been taken with glass bows.
Same Jeff, I know better than to believe everything I read on the internet, but here is what he wrote.
"A couple of months ago I tested my 70# @ 26 1/2" draw longbow and 850 grain arrows (160 fps) on a freshly killed bull Buff. While I believe my set-up is sufficient for buff I wouldn't want any less performance from my bow and arrow combination.
I never got the opportunity for a shot at a bull buff but I shot a young one (360kgs) for meat for the property manager. They are a real challenge to hunt and I hope to go back next year (hopefully the wind won't be swirling all the time) and take a bull.
There has been quite a few Buff taken with laminated longbows in Oz over the years.
Jeff "
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Keegan, was the howard hill a bamboo backed wood lam, or bamboo lam glass bow? he was a strong man hey :)
Hill used a glass lam bow for his elephants, but I'm almost certain he used his normal solid bamboo bow for his buffulo. He used this same bow for his lion and you can see that it is indeed all boo in the photos, and does not have the same fiberglass you see today (the limbs are about 1" thick!). Hill was getting on in his 50's at that point, so I doubt he would have been using a bow that was 25# heavier on an animal much smaller than his elephants.
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keegan, interesting. i'd like to know for sure.
justin, it is amazing what you can find on the internet. very often the truth is not present though.
the longbows jeff is talking about are normal glass longbows, not all woods. jeff also made a glass bow for ashby to use for his buff/broadhead/arrow testing. jeff doesn't know of anyone taking either buff type with all woods, only the mis hit i spoke of yesterday (which he feels confident would have done the job had it been on the money), and all the ozzy buff have been taken with glass longbows and recurves as far as i am aware.
clinton miller who started this thread has taken two buff with his glass bow now.
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Interesting, Jeff had mentioned osage. ;)
The other buff was a farm buff that got out on the highway. It was supposedly shot with a boo backed hickory, but Im not so convinced on that one either.
Regardless, I have made super heavy Ipe arrows with stone points that will penetrate almost anything. I would shoot them at a buff. I would be happy to make you some wood shafts that weigh over 65 grams.
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well i'd say (at least for water buff) that it may not have been done, and could be a first for someone that's still up for grabs.
i don't doubt it can be done with wood bows and arrows. i'm not convinced either way on stone points yet. would sure love to see someone do it :)...after someone test proves them first ;)
we don't get buff in cape york (except the odd couple in the bottom west corner) so i wont be hunting them for a while, but it certainly is a goal of mine. i will probably use one of my glass R/D bows unless i make a recurve before then. i do have a bamboo backed i made @ 62#, but i don't feel it's enough. i'll have to make a much heavier one to feel confident it will penetrate... and i'll be using metal heads for a start :)
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In all I've read, I really can't find alot on Hill's African hunts. Even Wild Adventures falls short. Heck, Tembo is more helpful... and it's been edited for Hollywood :P!
My offer to test all these theories out still stands by the way ;D
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My offer to test all these theories out still stands by the way ;D
;D
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My offer to test all these theories out still stands by the way ;D
I would have long since beat you to it if the economy hadn't gone in the tank. Now it will have to wait a couple of years.
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I was just reading Woods and Water, a local magazine for hunting and fishing in Florida and Georgia. There is an add for a paid hunt here for free range water Buff's, mature, but not trophy, $995, trophy, starting at $1995 to 2500. Sure got me to thinking. If the stone point didn't kill it, I could still drop it with the .300 WinMag and put it in the freezer. Might be something to save up for.
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There are several down there Eddie. I called one in 2008 about a hunt but they were booked full. It is cheaper to hunt water buff in Florida than to hunt Bison in Colorado. ???
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My offer to test all these theories out still stands by the way ;D
I would have long since beat you to it if the economy hadn't gone in the tank. Now it will have to wait a couple of years.
Is it crazy to think that we have enough guys here that might be willing to put together a "Send Justin on a suicide mission" fund. I'd think that a lot of guys would be interested enough in seeing the results of primitve equipment on a water buffalo that we could do some kind of Forum sponsored trip. Heck PA itself could get in on it and do a really neat article on the equipment built for the hunt and the end result. Pipe Dream??? I don't have much to give but I'd donate my change jar for this.
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OK, no gun guide along and I'll chip in:)
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I'm with you Justin, if I had the chance I'd go in a hartbeat, Australia a much better destination than Africa
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My offer to test all these theories out still stands by the way ;D
I would have long since beat you to it if the economy hadn't gone in the tank. Now it will have to wait a couple of years.
Is it crazy to think that we have enough guys here that might be willing to put together a "Send Justin on a suicide mission" fund. I'd think that a lot of guys would be interested enough in seeing the results of primitve equipment on a water buffalo that we could do some kind of Forum sponsored trip. Heck PA itself could get in on it and do a really neat article on the equipment built for the hunt and the end result. Pipe Dream??? I don't have much to give but I'd donate my change jar for this.
I like the idea Nate. Florida isn't very expensive and has some huge areas of swamp with free ranging Asian water buffalo. You collect the funds for the hunt and I will get myself to Florida or Australia for the hunt. I do need a video man though.
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Justin, I nominate Mullet for the camera man. He has to wear his Kilt though...... ::)
Wayne
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Justin, I nominate Mullet for the camera man. He has to wear his Kilt though...... ::)
Wayne
Hey Eddie,
We had one running around in the neighborhood about 8 months ago. Wanted posters (lost please call...) all over the place. Not sure if they ever found it. I'd leave the "metromale" camo at home though, you've been in this area the locals might get a bit friendly with a 30-30. ::)
Swamp
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Since I live down here I'm definitely going to think about it. Bjorn, no Kilt for me in the swamps, skeeters are too big.
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The whole trip ends with a massive PA barbecue :D
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Mullet - I'm an hour south of you, in Venice. I'll be your backup cameraman for The Hunt Of The Century! Did the combat cameraman thing back in 'Nam. And I will wear my kilt in the 'Glades - - it's easier to remove the leeches that way! :o :-\
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Mullet - I'm an hour south of you, in Venice. I'll be your backup cameraman for The Hun Of The Century! Did the combat cameraman thing back in 'Nam. And I will wear my kilt in the 'Glades - - it's easier to remove the leeches that way! :o :-\
The leaches aren't that bad, I've only seen one or two, and they are not terrestrial like you got to deal with I imagine (shudder!). The Florida state bird however (Skeeter) can get so prevalent that it sounds like you are at an electric clipper convention. It can get bad enough at my place in Ft. Myers, that it sounds like bunch of dunk maudlin cicadas.
Swamp
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Ken, an hour south of me? You must drive like I do ;D. This is starting to shapen up.
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Swamp - that is a buncha drunk maudilin cicadias ;D
You don't have a DEET dip tank on the lanai?
I didn't know we had feral Buff down here. I respect the hell outa them, having see them in Africa.
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They are not Feral. I found a place in Woods and Water. They charge $995 for a bull. We do have wild, 600# Sanbar deer, though. :)
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Awww, c'mon Eddie, wear yer Kilt like a good laddie! Just take your therma cell along. I don't know if I want to hunt the swamps anymore now, huge pythons, cobras, nasty monitor lizards, etc, and 600lb. Sambar stags too? Sheesh! Can you shoot those? I just might like to whack one of those, before, I go to Montana! I know a place in Sebring that has sitka deer, water buffaloe, and some kind of european Elk, all in a fenced area. Not exactly sporting. I would just as soon, as pay them to kill it, and gut it, and butcher it, and package it up, than go out in the jeep, and stop, and bang, and go stand by it and have my picture taken, on my Real honest to goodness, Florida Safarri. But, if I saw one in the swamp, well that just might be another story. So can you shoot the sambar stags, that are feral? If so, lets go get one! I have a couple of 30-06's, and two .45/70's......Any of them should do the job! Or did you want to go the Atlatle route? ;D
Wayne
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Swamp - that is a buncha drunk maudilin cicadias ;D
You don't have a DEET dip tank on the lanai?
I didn't know we had feral Buff down here. I respect the hell outa them, having see them in Africa.
Kinda like a sleepy drunk that can't really sing anymore so he humms along. ;D Get enough skeeters and it feels like the world is vibrating. :o
Not enough DEET in the world... Bug suit and a Thermacell is the only thing that will help you out when it's really bad. Even then, I avoid it. Thank goodness that only happens when the water comes up all the way and all of the eggs from last time hatch out. Tapers off again after a few days.
No ferals here, just a half tame escapee every once in a long while. Haven't seen one, but someone was looking real hard a while back.
Swamp
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Awww, c'mon Eddie, wear yer Kilt like a good laddie! Just take your therma cell along.
No belt loops on a kilt. I don't wanna know what he's gonna hang it from, those things get hot! :o
Swamp
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Wayne, the Sanbar are on St.Vincent Island in the panhandle. You have to get drawn for the permit and it is bow or muzzleloader only. The hunt is over this year, I heard they got two or three.
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I got the muzzle loader part covered. ;) Oh well, I guess I will just have to be satisfied with just plain ol Elk in Montana...... :'(
Wayne
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Yea,,I guess so,,,,,,That just sucks,,huh :'( ;)