Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: vCo2v on November 21, 2008, 02:27:08 am

Title: American longbows better than English Longbows?
Post by: vCo2v on November 21, 2008, 02:27:08 am
Someone just told me that american longbows are better than english longbows, is that true!?

Something about cross section or something.

What does it mean by better? (ease of draw, speed, distance?)

 ??? ???
Title: Re: American longbows better than English Longbows?
Post by: Hillbilly on November 21, 2008, 10:21:26 am
Boy, there's a question guaranteed to open a can of worms and restart the war of 1812. ;D The answer: Both are good designs, and will perform well. The only real performance difference in my opinion would be that some woods are more suited to one design or the other. The ALB is often a better design for woods that are stronger in tension than compression and benefit from a flatter belly.
Title: Re: American longbows better than English Longbows?
Post by: Pat B on November 21, 2008, 10:22:14 am
There are certain designs that each wood type excels at. No design is better than any other if the proper wood is used.  Even though an ash ELB is possible, an ALB of ash would be more appropriate because the wood preforms better as a flat wide limb than a narrow deep limb. Its weaker compression strength doesn't lend itself to a deep narrow design.
  The bows design for the wood used in the most important factor.   Pat
Title: Re: American longbows better than English Longbows?
Post by: Justin Snyder on November 21, 2008, 10:23:27 am
Exactly!!!!! What is better?  Better is someones perspective.  Bows should be designed according to the wood used.  Just like some woods are better as heartwoods and some are better as sapwood, some woods are better suited for a flat belly, some for a rounded belly. Some woods are better for shorter bows and some longer bows. For anyone to say any one bow is better is forgetting that it may change tomarrow with a different piece of wood. Justin

This is funny, we were all typing at the same time and all said basically the same thing.  ;D
Title: Re: American longbows better than English Longbows?
Post by: Pat B on November 21, 2008, 10:25:00 am
GREAT MINDS think alike!!! ;D :o
Title: Re: American longbows better than English Longbows?
Post by: Hillbilly on November 21, 2008, 10:32:48 am
GREAT MINDS think alike!!!   ;D :o

 ;D ;D
Title: Re: American longbows better than English Longbows?
Post by: DanaM on November 21, 2008, 11:05:43 am
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with them and I gaurantee you will learn tons :) They are available from PA's sister site Horsefeathers Ranch
just PM our very own SarahAnne and she will make it all painless for you :)

Steve, Pat, and Justin are saying Osage isn't the best wood :o ::) :P >:D
Title: Re: American longbows better than English Longbows?
Post by: Badger on November 21, 2008, 11:19:29 am
     Part of that might be because the definition of the american long bow has been stretched into the r/d bows as well which I think fall between recurves and lonbows and should be seperated. An english longbow is probably best at doing what it was designed to do. I have yet to see any single design clearly set itself apart as being best. Elbs are very specific as to how they can be built to qualify as a true elb so in all fairness they should only be compared when using the materials they were designed to be built form. When talking a non reflexed american longbow I don't really see much difference in two well made bows. I agree with all the answeres above!!  Steve
Title: Re: American longbows better than English Longbows?
Post by: vCo2v on November 21, 2008, 11:20:57 am
lol haha makes sense to me thanks guys

I've invested too much time reading about elbs to be told its not a great design.

 :D
Title: Re: American longbows better than English Longbows?
Post by: Keenan on November 21, 2008, 11:57:31 am
 Well said guys,  "Great minds think alike"  or "sick minds think alike" >:D   Like Justin stated just the definition of "better can be a squed prospective.  I like shorter flat bows. Every ELB that I've shot had smooth draws but felt hand shock and sluggish. Could be that an ELB doesn't work well with a 24" draw  :D   Besides who wants to shoot something straight when there are so many crooked twisted sticks to play with. ::)
Title: Re: American longbows better than English Longbows?
Post by: robbsbass on November 21, 2008, 01:07:15 pm
Their is a story about the British going back to England, after being badly beaten in several engagements. One English Kieut was smart enough to take an osage bow back with him. The English higharchy said their was no way that an osage bow could outshoot their muskets and longbows,so they put them to the test. and sure enough, the osage out distanced both the english long bow and the muskets, the English the came back and burned every bush they could find that had osage orange and that is why osage was had to find for many years.

            Robb
Title: Re: American longbows better than English Longbows?
Post by: Robert on November 21, 2008, 02:16:30 pm
My understanding is that the ALB cross-section (rectangle) is more efficient from an engineering standpoint, assuming that the bending beam is of uniform material.  So for a selfbow made entirely out of, say, blacklocust heartwood, a rectangular cross section will place the limbs under less stress for a given force applied compared to a D-section longbow.  You would expect the d-section bow to take more set because more compression force is being exerted on the belly of the bow due to its depth.  The set robs early draw-weight and, consequently, cast.

However, if the material is not uniform, as in a yew sapwood-heartwood ELB or a laminated bow like a BBI, a narrow, deep section can work better.  The belly material on these bows can handle more compression force than the back material, and vice versa.  An additional advantage to a narrow deep design is that it weighs less for a given stiffness (draw-weight) because bend resistance increases by a greater factor per additional thickness than for additional width (i.e. doubling the thickness of a beam increases its stiffness more than doubling its width).

So, the answer is "it depends".  A lot of people seem to have good success with ELB-type cross sections with whitewood selfbows, which is sort of counterintuitive to what I just said above.  I suspect the performance comes from the narrowness and lightness of a deep-section bow, and possibly better dynamics. 

There are other aspects, too, that should be considered in a comparison, like ease of construction, stability, archer's paradox, etc.  At any rate, to broadly say that ALBs are better than ELBs is ignorant.  You need to more narrowly define the comparison in terms of goals, materials, etc.

-Rob

Title: Re: American longbows better than English Longbows?
Post by: vCo2v on November 21, 2008, 04:14:07 pm
Thanks Robert,

Thats a great response and explains a lot what he meant by cross section.
Title: Re: American longbows better than English Longbows?
Post by: Bowbound on November 21, 2008, 04:39:38 pm
Being british, the ELB!

Really... well it depends on a multitude of things but what everyone else has says is good advice.
Title: Re: American longbows better than English Longbows?
Post by: D. Tiller on November 21, 2008, 04:54:58 pm
I will be the devils advocate here and say hand over fist the ALB is much better design for any wood even (Shocker!) Yew! Less strain to the wood and allows the forces to be ballanced in both tension and compression. Though I tend to make mostly ELB's because I like the look of them!  ;D  Performance wise the ALB outperforms my ELB's.
Title: Re: American longbows better than English Longbows?
Post by: Badger on November 21, 2008, 05:18:39 pm
Tiller, I have been working a yew flatbow the last couple of weeks that has me wondering why anybody uses it for elbs. I just can't believe how this thing is shooting, I still have 4" to go.  But if I were making a 120# 32" draw bow I would go for the elb in a heartbeat. Steve
Title: Re: American longbows better than English Longbows?
Post by: George Tsoukalas on November 22, 2008, 10:14:03 pm
Let's see if we can agree on a definition of each of the 2 because I detect some confusion as to what an ALB is. To me it is relatively long say 69 inches nock to nock for  a 27-28 inch draw. it is somewhat narrow say around 1.25 inches. Good luck paddling your canoe with this design. It's rectangular in cross section and has a deep core. It's thick so extra length is needed. An ELB is long and relatively narrow with a rounded belly and deep cross section. There are no corners, everything is rounded. The English Longbow Society (if you don't like the ELB designation take it up with them) has rather strict requirements for an ELB's cross section. I forget what they are.  I'm not a fan of either. I like my bows 62-66 in. long  for my 26 in draw and around 1.75 in wide. I like to hunt with my bows and spend time in the woods stump shooting and shooting 3d in the off season so short is good. I don't own a canoe so being able to paddle a canoe with my bow is not really a requirement. :) Jawge
Title: Re: American longbows better than English Longbows?
Post by: Badger on November 22, 2008, 10:34:34 pm
      Jawge, I agree with you that definitions should be better defined. I get a lot of my definitions from flight shooting rules which leave a lot to be desired in my opinion. I think with all the present interest in wood bows going on setting up some kind of international board nomintaed and elected by folks from several various wood bow forums to decide what should be called what. I think r/d bows should be called something besides longbows. I guess establish classes with set definitions that could be looked up somewhere. Steve
Title: Re: American longbows better than English Longbows?
Post by: George Tsoukalas on November 22, 2008, 11:10:56 pm
I agree that definitions are important, Badger. As far as allowing for a reflex in the definition of ALB I think yes but don't have  a poodle in that fight. :) Jawge
Title: Re: American longbows better than English Longbows?
Post by: D. Tiller on November 24, 2008, 07:06:27 pm
Your definition sounds good for me Jawge. Thas what I was thinking of. I still think if you made bows the same width in both ALB and ELB design the ALB would out perform the ELB. That rounded belly seems to concentrate stresses down the center of the belly and cause the wood cells to collapse and end up as dead weight. Though if only using for a short time it might cast well for a while. The bows I make though are in the 50-65# range so I dont know how they would work at the higher weights.
Title: Re: American longbows better than English Longbows?
Post by: Hillbilly on November 24, 2008, 07:56:22 pm
Jawge, that's the same thing I think of when I hear ALB. Seems like any thing that doesn't have pronounced recurves is called a "longbow" nowadays.
Title: Re: American longbows better than English Longbows?
Post by: Justin Snyder on November 24, 2008, 09:05:44 pm
Seems to me that a ALB ought to be a lot like an ELB except for cross section. Real long and quite narrow. I don't know why it can't have a little reflex in it. I do tend to agree with Steve though. A R/D is just that. A recurve is just that.  Why anyone would want to make a recurve or R/D long enough to be called a longbow is beside me. It just doesn't seem like a real efficient design at that length.  ;D

George, I think it would be better suited for polling around in a dugout than trying to paddle a canoe anyway.  ;D