Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Cave Men only "Oooga Booga" => Topic started by: JackCrafty on November 24, 2008, 02:01:58 pm
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Anybody have a good way to remove the odor from rawhide that has been de-haired the "natural way"? I'm going to be processing several skins this season and I don't want to use the salt&dry method this year. I was thinking of retting the skins until the hair falls out, and then drying them for later use...but I'm worried about the odor.
I've heard that soaking in gasoline works...but then they would smell like...well, gasoline. :-\
Thanks.
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A bit of chlorox in the water to kill any bacteria might work. If you soak the skins in water and wood ash to slip the hair then stretch and dry the skin you shouldn't have much smell.
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Thanks Pat....hmmmm....clorox is a good idea. Bacteria is supposed to loosen the hair.....so I guess I could soak the skins in water with a little bleach after the hair is off. I haven't tried the wood ash method. I'll need to make some fire..... ;D
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When wet the wood ash produces lye. You can buy Red Devil lye and get the same results, I believe.There may be other solutions( ;D pun intended) for removing the hair without stinking up the jurnt. ;) Pat
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You can smoke the rawhide to remove smell. (Though it can be hard to get it lit ::)) No actually, put it in a smoke house or make a smoke tent.
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;D
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Patrick, I just stretch them and dry scrape. No smell, no gooey nasty mess.
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Hilbilly, yeah, I can see the advantage of dry scraping. I plan to prepare at least one by dry scraping....but I was hoping for a quicker way to get the hair off. Also, I'm pretty sure I'm allergic to the hair. I don't think I want to have deer fur swirling around my back yard for the remainder of the season....
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Doesn't take but a half-hour or so with a good sharp scraper-takes a while to get it off after bucking, too. The flying hair is kind of messy, I usually just rake it up and throw it in the compost pile.
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Patrick I'm highly allergic to deer, but its not the hair its the dander that will get ya, ya know the dead skin flakes and associated little nasties living in the hair.
I get hives from contact, eyes swell shut throat constricts all the fun stuff :P For a bucking solution hardwood ashes mixed in the water also good old garden lime will work
don't know what ratio to use but if its to strong it'll eat the hide ::)
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Keep shoveling ashes in until an egg will float upright, exposing an area about the diameter of a quarter. If the egg sinks, it's too weak. If it floats on its side, it's too strong.
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Yep...a good Chlorine Bath gets rid of all of the Nasties....and it even whitens it up some too.....but make sure that you rinse it well
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Just finished doin some reading on graining hides. This couple out in Montana does it without any special bucking solution, they soak the hide overnight, flesh it, then soak it overnight again. Then they remove the hair with a fleshing knife.
I have three fleshed hides in a hardwood ash solution in my basement as I type.( My wife has no idea there are deer hides soaking in her house. ) If I'd read about this technique earlier I think I would have tried it. I'm not looking forward to the rinsing out of the buck. I've got a creek behind the house but its not running.
I guess I'll have to chop a hole in the ice on the pond and sink 'em in there.
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I've soaked them for a day and a half without any ashes and the hair will fall off. I can guarantee if you leave it for 3 or 4 days you will have a bucket full of Goo. And I don't think you can buy Red Devil Lye anymore.
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Lime from the garden center or Tractor Supply works fine, but can get messy. A couple pounds in five gallons of water usually does the trick. I have also used pickling lime from the grocery store. I have not noticed any bad odor in mine. I just flesh it to get the meat and fat off and then soak in the lime. While it is soaking, the inner membrane usually fill with the water and swells, making it easier to get off. It takes alot of rinsing and ringing to get the lime out. When you think it is all out, rinde it a few more times.
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Wow, thanks guys.
Hillbilly, I think I will use the shop vac when I'm dry scraping...and see how that works.
Dana, allergic to deer also? Or should I say dander? Glad I'm not the only one. ;D
Hillbilly, using ashes to slip the hair seems too messy. I don't doubt that it works, but I've heard that the ashes can stain the hide...especially the black pieces of charcoal that are mixed in.
Destructo, I'll definitely try the bleach. I went by the processor today but it was too late. The truck came by just before I got there and emptied the dumpster. They told me to check after Thanksgiving....when the season kicks into high gear.....can't wait.
Minuteman & Mullet, that technique sounds good. Especially the short waiting time. A day and a half sounds a lot better than three to five days.
Madcrow, lime sounds good, but I worry about the lime eventually getting into my well water....especially if I decide to process a lot of hides.
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you can still buy Red devil Lye....plus eBay still has it in bulk for sale too....I just use Lime....you can't overdo it...because it just wont dissolve in the Water past a certain concentration anyways
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Just for other folks amusement I'll bring yall up to speed on my deer hide caper. Hope its ok to include it in your thread , Jackcrafty.
I checked my hides in the bucking solution yesterday morning and after only 2 days they were slipping hair real easily so I took them out side and dug the smallest hide out . I got it sprayed off real well, laid it on the fleshing beam and dehaired/grained it. It was THE MOST NASTY WORK I HAVE EVER DONE! You best keep your mouth closed while yer doin it, prolly ought to wear goggles too, that lye is nasty stuff. I tossed the other two hides over the hill behind my rifle range. I won't be doin any more hides with ashes. The work involved was just too disgusting to stand for me. Especially since I know for a fact the dry scrape method is not anywhere near as messy.
I guess to me it comes down to how much enjoyment I'm gonna get out of the finished product that dictates whether or not the amount of work I'm suffering through is worth the effort. I can't see that this method is worth the process you have to go through to accomplish. I'll be trying the dry scrape / indian style method with my next skin.
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Minuteman....did you scrape all of the Fat and meat off before you soaked the Hides??? If not....this will stink like a decomposing Corpse
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Chris, you should have waited till the wife left and thrown them in the washing machine.
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Chris, you should have waited till the wife left and thrown them in the washing machine.
Damn Eddie....you think Like Me!!!!!!!! >:D
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Minuteman, thanks for posting that. ;D
When the smoke clears from Thanksgiving and such.....I'm going to begin soaking my skins. I'll also put one in a frame for dry scraping.
I agree that wet scraping is messy (I scraped the flesh from my skins a while back) and I hope the whole business doesn't get too smelly on top of that. Bleach will probably help a lot. I might try hydrogen peroxide as well.
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Yeah Destructo-matic, they were fleshed real well. It wasn't the smell so much that wasn't the issue , they just smelled like deer really , it was just waaayy more mess than I thought it ought to be. The ashes made it so handling them had to be done with rubber gloves as I could feel the lye leaching my hands dry without them. I think my next will just be fleshed green, water soaked, de-haired only and not grained so the leather I make has more body .
I'd enjoy hearing about your experiences, Jack.
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I'll keep you posted. ;D
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Another thing I like about dry-scraping is that you can scrape a few minutes here and there as you get time-you don't have to do it all at once like wet-scrape where once you start, you're commited.
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Well, I got my hands on 5 deer hides (and many feet) last night from the local processor. They are mule deer.....and dang, they have lots of thick hair! :o They make whitetail hides look anorexic.
I passed on a hog skin but it was interesting.....it was HUGE with lots of course fur and the skin was VERY thick and heavy.
Anyway, I put the skins in buckets for now (flesh and all) and removed the sinew from the feet last night.
Question: You guys got any pictures of stuff you've made with deer toes (or foot parts)? I was reading the post "Hog Toes" and it got me wondering. This is my first experience processing deer feet. I did a search but there aren't many pics....
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Well, Jack the leg bones make good knife handles. Had a guy tell me last week that the indians uses to use a fresh leg bone to flesh their hides. The little channel that has the big tendon bundle in it on their back leg has a sharp edge to it.
I've also read you can boil off the hoof part and make strike plates for bows or whatever. Hang a bunch together and ya got a tipi doorbell.
Another buddy case skins the legs, tans them and uses them for no sew bow handles. You can also make bags from em. There are some interesting little bones in a whitetail foot that are flat and kinda shaped like a comma, about 2" long that I've always wanted to do something with. They almost look like flat bear teeth. Mule deer probably have the same thing. They sit below where you cut the bottom part of the tendon free from the leg.
Have fun.
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Thanks Minuteman. ;D
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>:( Monday to Thursday that skin soaked in water. I took a bucket of water out each evening and put in fresh to try and keep the smell down . I went down this morning and it was funkadelic down there. :oI am quite certain that I am teetering on a train wreck of a run in with the lil lady. I just hope she doesn't need to go down to the freezer any time soon. Its kinda lingerin down there like a dead mouse in a wall. :-[ Got a scented candle burnin'....
I couldn't leave it down there so I took it outside. Now, its below freezing outside and I don't know if it will damage the hide to freeze or not. I did put it in a ash/water solution to try and get the hair to slip .After four days in the water all I got was a nasty ,( yes the hide was well fleshed) decaying flesh smell. I couldn't hardly pull any hair out and it definitely hadn't gotten any easier to remove than when I put it in the water.The two I threw over the hill seemed no worse for wear when I went and retrieved them this afternoon. I couldn't see not using them for at least rawhide after all the work I put in 'em.I dehaired them and they are soaking in an old cooler in the yard. If you leave em go that long with the lye on em, the hair comes off like paste .
I'm gonna bark tan these things if it kills me. >:(
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Hmmm....well Minuteman that's good to know. My skins are still in covered buckets (2 soaking in water) and I hope to flesh them tonight or tomorrow. Dry scraping is looking pretty good at this point....
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If you don't have em fleshed and don't change the water for two days , you are in for an olfactory assault my friend!
Keep us posted. ;)
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Picked up a bunch more skins last night....seven I think....and 32 feet. I washed the blood off ALL the skins and put 'em all together in a big bin. The first batch still smells fresh....luckily it's been very cool during the day...with 20's and 30's at night. I think I've got enough to keep me very busy this weekend. ;D
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Good grief ! :o You ARE a glutton for punishment! ;)I gotta get a new set up for fleshing next year . The waist beam is killing my back. :'( Though I probably have it set too low.
Got the hole-less skin( the 4 day water soaked one) dehaired and into a the cooler with the other ones. It slipped pretty easy not as easy as two days in the buck but very little work involved.
They are all soaking in water with a little vinegar.
I am gonna have to scud off the flesh side again to get the ash out of it, I'm afraid.
Jack , you might wanna change the name of this thread to hides hysterics or something like that. "Stinky rawhide" just doesn't sound right. Like its some cowboy's name from a b movie or something.
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Heheh.....hides hysterics.... :D
OK, I changed the name of the thread. ;D
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Good to see you guys earning some real "oooga booga" credentials. I can tell you it is a lot more fun to read your "adventures" than it is to be in your shoes. But when you get to the end.....It's worth it! Just think, leather that's good enough to eat!!
Well, maybe not that good, but all-natural?
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:D
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Thats pretty funny right there! :D :D
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Oh! I forgot to tell you another,,, easy way to slip hair and it doesn't stink. ::) :-[ If you freeze it for a few days, then take it and let it completely thaw. Then freeze it again, real good, and then thaw it again, the hair will fall out like a dog with mange. ;D
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Well, I pulled all 4 hides out of the water/ vinegar solution they all felt much less swollen and they no longer had that" so slickery you can't hold onto" it feeling. I figured they were ready for the tanning solution after I scudded off the flesh side again, I was really trying to remove some of the ash crud from the skin. Next time I'm gonna dehair with pickling lime so they don't get so dern dirty. I didn't do as good a job as I could have but it was cold out there with wet hands. I think next year I'm gonna do my hides in October. I guess that means I need to kill a bunch a deer with my bow, huh?
I checked the hides after they had been in the bark for two hours and they had already started absorbing the tannin.
Pretty cool , I've wanted to do this for ten years. ;D
Chris
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Well, I fleshed 5 out of 11 hides and the ones with the flesh still on are getting a little ripe. I changed the water last night and they weren't too bad...but I got to finish them up soon! :-X
Here's my hide fleshing set-up. The platform (that I stand on) is an old gate, the fleshing beam is a 4" treated post with a 2x4 nailed to the bottom, my scraper is a metal rule I got off a combination square, gloves, plastic bag "shirt", and a hide in a bucket.
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/12-07-2008-soup1/DSC_0390.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/12-07-2008-soup1/DSC_0388.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/12-07-2008-soup1/DSC_0389.jpg)
Here's a couple of hides soaking in a solution of water (10 gals ?) and 2 cups drain opener....a technique that Cowboy suggested when he was here. Let's see if it works. ;D Smells good anyway.
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/12-07-2008-soup1/DSC_0391.jpg)
I rounded the corners of the rule so that I wouldn't punch holes in the gloves. The edge is just sharp enough for fleshing, yet not so sharp that it cuts the gloves.
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I envy your lack of frozen-ness :( What the temps like there?
It was 28 degrees and freezing rain this morning.
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We had a warm snap last couple days....72o today with 40o tonight. Getting colder tomorrow....42o tomorrow with 23o overnight.
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OK...here's the progress on the deerskins:
The first batch of skins I got was on Tuesday (Dec 2nd).
They were placed in a bin until Thursday...flesh and all.
When I got the second batch on Thursday, I washed all the skins and put them into bins...flesh and all.
No hair was slipping and all the skins smelled fresh.
Saturday I fleshed two skins and put them into a solution of water and drain opener.
No hair was slipping.
Sunday I fleshed 3 more skins and hung them up to dry.
I didn't have time to rack them so I just hung them them up.
They were a little smelly but not too bad.
No hair was slipping.
Last night (Monday), I tried to scrape hair off the two hides that were in the water and drain opener solution....hmmmm....the hair was not coming off at all. Now, the other hides that were still in water were smelling pretty ripe....but no hair slipping on any of them either.....at all......nada......the hair was as firmly in place as the first day I got them.
Temperatures ranged from high 20's at night to low 70's during the day during this period.
So I decided put all the skins (even the dry ones - they were getting smellier) into water with drain opener. This time I added quite a bit of drain opener to the water....and they are soaking right now. I stirred them this morning before going to work. I'll check on them tonight. ;D
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No go on the drain opener (the hair is getting weaker but at this rate it will take a month...or more). :-\ The hair is not slipping well on ANY of the hides except where the skins are thin, like the belly area. It appears that lye is not the main ingredient in drain opener anymore anyway....I read the label and it's bleach (10%) and lye (2%). GREAT. >:(
So I racked 4 hides (I might dry scrape these), threw out the ones that smelled really bad, and put two hides into a bin with hydrated lime.
I tried looking for pickling lime but after 4 grocery stores, confused looks, and wasted gas (good thing it's cheap right now)...I bought some hydrated lime. If that doesn't work I'm going to mail order some potassium hydroxide. (While I was at it, I looked for borax with not luck....except for the type that kills roaches).
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Man ....you don't have a Super Wal-Mart...or a United Supermarket near You??? We use 20 Mule Team Borax all the time...and buy it from Wal-Mart....and they have pickling Lime too...so does United....cause I just bought two more Pounds for an Elk Hide I have to do
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Well, Jack, I had to move my tanning operation outside into my covered basement stairs. The wife got a whiff yesterday while I was stirring it and adding bark. It was really stinking bad. I think I let it get too weak. I added ten more gallons of bark and some salt and vinegar and it smells like it did at the beginning again.This is day 9.
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Destructo, we have 2 "supercenter" wal-marts in Midland but neither carries pickling lime or 20 mule team borax. Even the supply of canning jars is limited.....they only had a few cartons and only two sizes the last time I went. (They were out of the size I like to use for my home-made paints). And there are no united supermarkets in the Midland-Odessa area.
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Minuteman, ten gallons of bark? ...must be cheap. Where are you getting that stuff? I think I'd like to try some.
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A buddy of mine does the tree work for a landscaping/nursery business. So I asked him to bring me a double wheelbarrow load of chips the next time he cut down a red oak and he brought me a whole 55 gallon drum full!
I dried it out on the garage floor for a month and stored it in a plastic barrel in the garage. I don't think I'm gonna be running out any time soon.
I bet you could find a local arborist and get him to bring you a bunch for a quick 20 dollar bill. You'd probably have more than you need to do a bunch hides and it'll keep indefinitely once its dry.
Any kinda oak is good. I think all bark has some tannin in it, even willow. But I chose red oak , its supposed to have a slightly higher tannin level than many other local trees.
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As for a name to this thread, how about " The adventures, of Eau De Epidermis " That would make some real " Toilet water"... ;D ;D
Wayne
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Eau De Epidermis ..... :D
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" Howdy ma'am , name's Stinky , Stinky Rawhide."
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OK...after a couple days in the hydrated lime the hair slipped right off. FINALLY! ;D ;D I know it was the hydrated lime that did it (and not the fact that they were getting rotten, for example) because some areas that did not get exposed to the hydrated lime were not slipping at all.
After scraping the hair off of a couple skins, I rinsed them as best I could, covered them with water, and added some vinegar to neutralize the lime. I didn't scrape off the membrane under the hair because I didn't have time. I'll rack them tonight and see if I can't dry scrape the membrane off this weekend.
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Wow Pat, I just read through all of this. It's been enjoyable reading and very commical ;D. I used crystal drano to make the hair slip, has some kind of acid in it (can't remember which). Anyway about a half can in a #5 wash tub. Let the hide soak for 5 to 7 days stirring occasionally and the hair practically falls off. If ya mix it too stout it'll burn the skin, I'll add a pic if I can find it.
Reading about your hydrated lime success, I may try that next. Or maybe Mullet's muliple freezing method, or dry scraping. I was going for rawhide not buckskin - great, another goal ;D.
Well, I'll have to figure my pictures out later.
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Hey folks the deer skin soup saga continues eh Patrick?
I went ahead and strengthened my bark solution today. the de grained hide is almost struck through already, its been 15 days in the tanning liquor. I was told on another site that you cant get the solution too strong without substantial heating and evaporation. So next semi warm day I get I'm gonna drag out the 30 gallon maple syrup boiler( stainless steel) and simmer down some strong stuff to get these things goin'.
I'm gonna concentrate the liquor when I'm done with it as well. No sense wasting all that tannin.
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...the de grained hide is almost struck through already...
What do you mean by struck through? Saturation? Are you looking at the color of the hide?
Yep, the saga continues...... :D
I've got one of the hides racked and I used the ole orbital sander to clean off the hair and little bits of membrane and junk that was stuck to the hide. The membrane that was under the hair is still there and looks a lot lighter than the rest of the hide....so I think it will be easy to tell when it's removed. The question is how to remove it?
I think I'll try removing the membrane with my disc sander....I know it works but it leaves an obviously "modern" pattern of sander marks. I don't have a proper dry scraping tool so I'll either try to make one or bite the bullet and buy one online....if I feel the urge to try an authentic tanning technique.
I also picked up 8 more hides last Thursday. Three have been fleshed and are soaking in hydrated lime solution. The others are soaking in bleach solution (to keep down the bacteria) until I have time to flesh them.
I tried making a bowstring (Friday) with a long strip (3/16" wide) of rawhide that I cut following a straight line down the middle of the back of the hide. I used a pair of scissors and cut the hide when it was still wet. I hung it up to dry, put some twist in it, and it seemed to be strong enough for a 35# bow....but then my dog ate it. >:(
If the rawhide bowstring thing works well, it will save me a lot of time.
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They should turn this into a TV mini series :D
Jack if ya have any knapping rock knock off a spall and give it try for dehairing. Ooga Booga eh :)
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Dana....hmmmmm.....yeah I've got plenty of spalled stone but I'm not so sure I want to get that primitive.
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this would make a pretty good miniseries ;D. I think they're looking for the dog that ate the rawhide :D.
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>:D
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Dang the show hasn't even aired yet and yer already running Geico commercials :D
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:D
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Dang, ya changed the lyrics to fit ;D.
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"Struck through" means that its almost absorbed enough to have tannin all the way through the hide.
The way you test it is you pull out the hide, find the neck part which is the thickest and cut a small piece off. Then you look at the cut and see if there's any white hide left in the middle , if there is, its not done. If its brown all the way through its done enough to be finished.
What are you gonna do with these hides,Patrick? Are you gonna brain tan 'em or make rawhide or what? You don't have to grain 'em at all if you don't want to. Rawhide is better ( from what I've been told)with grain on unless you want a very thin rawhide.
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Yep, rawhide is what I'm after....for bow backing and bow strings....and possibly for hafting. The thinner the better.
I de-haired and scraped another hide last night. The hydrated lime seems to soften the membrane as well as slip the hair. I scraped both sides and it looks pretty thin. ;D I rinsed it and put it into a vinegar solution. I'll rack it and then take some picks (this weekend) of the whole process.
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In the interest of experimentation ( and to satisfy my curiosity) you might leave one with the grain on just to see how much it's different than the grained hides. ;)
I moved the hides back inside the basement guys , don't tell the wife! :o It smells pretty good now. I just hafta keep adding the fresh bark every 4 or 5 days.
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I promise I'll never mention it!! ;D ;D
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I'm having so much "fun" I got the wife to take pictures. Of course she thinks the whole process is really gross......but at least she knows I'm not out back relaxing in a hammock sippin' lemonade or something..... ::)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/12-26-08/DSC_0339.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/12-26-08/DSC_0335.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/12-26-08/DSC_0336.jpg)
This last picture is two de-haired hides back in the hydrated lime....I'll finish scraping them tomorrow (to remove the grain and remaining membrane).
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/12-26-08/DSC_0340.jpg)
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The process IS gross, she's right. :P I must say that is the nicest space suit I've ever seen anyone where while working on deer skins. :D Rubber gloves inside the leather ones is a good idea.
I usually wrap a trash bag around my waist with a cord that way I don't have to take it off over my head.You'd think with a bounty of hair like you have you'd be afraid of losing some to the bucking solution! ;) :D
A buddy of mine is bringing me a coon skin Sunday afternoon. We're gonna put it in the bark tan and see how it does. I've read that the acid in the tannin will set the hair and won't make it slip, guess we'll see.
I'm glad you finally got the hair to slip.
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:D
Dang! You're right Minuteman....I didn't think about getting that stuff in my own hair when I pull that bag over my head. :o
The apron idea sounds good, but I don't set the fleshing beam that low. I end up getting the bucking solution all over me anyway.......Maybe I should get me one of these "space suits" (see below).... ;D Looks almost as good as the trash bag, don'tcha think?
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This thread needed another post after the tyvek space suit picture! :o
Hope you don't mind if I add some news of my exploits with the bark tanning Patrick. I've kinda been throwing it in with yours. ;)
Anyway, I ran out of chipped bark about two weeks ago and my hides weren't quite where I wanted them to be . Not struck through yet. So I called a buddy of mine that works next to a pallet factory and sawmill and had him get me a bag of sawdust and a bag of chipped up stuff. It smells like the oak chips I initially used and it makes some strong tanning liquor. I simmered close to 20 gallons out of the sawdust today. I know its not all oak but he said they use 80% oak in their operation and the rest is maple and hickory.Works pretty well.
Thought ya'll might be interested in knowing sawdust will make tannin. :)
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Thanks....sawdust is a great idea.
Yeah, I thought I killed this thread with that picture....I could here the crickets chirping...
I'm just about done with the hide processing thing. I've got at least five good quality rawhides....the rest are damaged with knife marks but I think I can still use them for rawhide cordage and lacing. I'll take some pictures of the rawhide stuff tomorrow.
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Here's a thought, I bet dead oak leaves shredded up will maketannin also. Might be easier to get.
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The leaves do have tannin in them. They have the most when they are fresh. The stuff I used to start out with was shredded oak branches and leaves. Fresh from a tree.
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I just thought you could come rake my yard and get a nice supply ::) :D
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Run over them with the lawn mower then rake 'em up. Or send 'em through a shredder. I'm thinking you'd need a half a truck load to do a hide or two. :)