Bowyers Flote

[CraigMBeckett]

Sorry, I don't have a picture and the small detail wouldn't show up. You can see the real thing in a hardware store or tool store where they have a good selection of files. You will be able to make the connection to the flote drawings on the bowyers' coat of arms.

So you are talking of Plane makers float files.
I do not believe they or similar tools are the same thing as the flotes, the photograph I provided is I believe a modern version of the tool.

Craig.

[Jaro]

Which does not seem to be designed for bowmaking.

J.

[CraigMBeckett]

jaro,

Which does not seem to be designed for bowmaking

I have read other opinions that are totally converse to yours. As I indicated earlier the bowyers of the middle ages used excellent staves and did not have a great need to negotiate dips etc on the sides and bellies of the bows they made.

You also seem to forget that we have someone on this site who uses one he built himself, I have read of other people who have found them useful and easy to use, one description of their use was by a person who got roped into doing demo's of bow building at a re-enactment event and was given one to use, he said he found it better than any of the tools he usually used. (Cannot find the site with the report now).

I would also suggest that one could follow dips with it if one wished simply by tilting it forwards or backwards and using the front or back blade.

Now although I have not used one I am not prepared to dismiss it as useless before I try it or ask others who have used it what they think of it. To buy one and have it sent to Australia would be more than I am prepared to spend on a tool I may not like at present but I fully intend to get one and try it sometime in the future.

Craig.

[Rod]

I've seen one of those and wouldn't give you sixpence for one of those things, but everyone has preferences in tools and that is their own business.

I would not even use a concave scraper without rounding off the sharp points and as for spending money on several fitted into a brush handle, I would have no use for such a thing.

Seems to me the flote on the coat of arms is for roughing out characterless staves.
Can't say I care much either way.
And I wouldn't lecture Jaro on tools knowing him, his work and his knowledge of the topic as I do.

Rod.

Jaro,
Have you seen the Lie Nielsen Boggs chaimakers spokeshave with the curved sole.
Now if only they made a scraper version of that.....
That would be an heirloom quality bowyers edge if there ever was such a tool.
I have the 212 scraper plane and the low angle block plane and they are a delight to use, but a scraper version of the Boggs spokeshave would be marvelllous.

[Jaro]

Rod, I have seen that spokeshave - on the picture. I still have only the one I inherited from a local chairmaker , and that is german cca 1925 and has seen alot of use, though I have made me new blade from old HSS steel saw. Word of caution, I bought quite expensive Veritas spokeshave, which they advocate as suitable for bowmaking and found it uselles, so caveat everybody.

This is the scraper spoke I made from ash, the screws for fixing the blade in arent instaled and it really need brass sole. Next to it my old style coachmakers spoke blades, sharpened and tuned, only waiting for nice piece of boxwood



Craig, you seem to spend alot time of advocating for a tool which you dont use. Didnt you came to ask oppinions?

J.

[CraigMBeckett]

Craig, you seem to spend alot time of advocating for a tool which you dont use. Didnt you came to ask oppinions?

I did not start this thread, so I did not come to ask opinions but joined in a discussion on the tool. Although I have not used one I have read informed opinion by people who have.

As for having spent a lot of time advocating its use,  let me see... you have posted 9 times so far more than half of which have been disparaging of the use of the tool a tool you have not used.  I have posted a 8 times, my initial posts were of pictures of the tool and of the Arms of the Worshipful company, others were asking questions of some of the comments, its only my last post that I have suggested the tool is worth a look at and trying. Now I wonder who has spent more time on the use of a tool he has not used.

Craig.

[crooketarrow]

   I once read that the med evil  war bowyers used it on whitewood bows where bows were made in larger numbers.For the armys and in the  royal ship yards where large amonts of wood can be removed easy to remove tool marks.I've never use or saw one used.Sence our bows arn't mass produced and mosty out of hardwoods and we  have more detail towards workmanship and don't need such a tool.

[bow-toxo]

[
So you are talking of Plane makers float files.
I do not believe they or similar tools are the same thing as the flotes, the photograph I provided is I believe a modern version of the tool.

Craig.

I don't know what a plane maker is. The flotes on the bowyers arms and other drawings as well as float files all show a surface with grooves cut vertical on one side and slanted on the other side. If that does not convince you and you choose to believe that mediaeval floats were a series of scraper blades be my guest.

[CraigMBeckett]

Bow-toxo,

The flotes on the bowyers arms and other drawings as well as float files all show a surface with grooves cut vertical on one side and slanted on the other side. 

I have blown up the arms and cannot see what you claim to see, I also have not seen any other drawings offered by you or anyone else, however if the blade angle does/did change from side to side I see no reason why the separate blades set in a wooden handle cannot be set that way.  Now if you care to think that in the middle ages, when carbon steel was very expensive and difficult to get, that a bowyer could afford to have such a large piece of carbon steel then be my guest. I however will continue to believe in the less expensive option of blades being set into a wooden holder making a light weight a tool that can be readily sharpened, unlike the heavy and unwieldy file like implement you suggest and I will continue to do so until I see proof that suggests otherwise.

I don't know what a plane maker is.

Plane maker = maker of planes, woodworking planes, plane maker's floats are special files used in the manufacture of wooden or wooden infill planes, try googling it.

Craig

[Jaro]

It is not necessary to blow the picture of coat of arms up, I too see a tool with single chisel cut akin to that of single cut rasp. There is nothing to indicate that it is piece of wood with series of scrapers. Also notice that it is straight and that the "eye" on top isnt really a handle, but rather it might serve for sticking wooden handle through, when working on long piece of material spokeshave-style.

I did not start this thread, so I did not come to ask opinions but joined in a discussion on the tool. Although I have not used one I have read informed opinion by people who have

- You seem to imply that my opinion and some others opininon is somehow "uninformed", when appealing to invisible and unknown authority. Who are those "informed people pls? What we seem to get from you since begining is "other converse" "informed opinion" etc... Who are those people and what are their credentials?



J.

[CraigMBeckett]

I too see a tool with single chisel cut akin to that of single cut rasp

You too see it with whom? It seems you see something different to Bow-toxo who claims to see "a surface with grooves cut vertical on one side and slanted on the other side" or are you now going to change what you claim to see?

What we seem to get from you since begining is "other converse" "informed opinion" etc... Who are those people and what are their credentials?

Again jaro you exaggerate for your own purposes, from the beginning I supplied info on where to get one, the coat of arms of the Worshipful Company etc etc, it was only the post after your "Which does not seem to be designed for bowmaking. " when I mentioned other opinions etc. Do not exaggerate it does not become you. This is the second time in as many posts you have tried exaggeration as a means of supporting your claim or decrying what I an saying, each time it was far from the truth.

You seem to imply that my opinion and some others opininon is somehow "uninformed", when appealing to invisible and unknown authority. Who are those "informed people pls?

As for informed opinion that of course would come from people who have used one or have spoken to or read on their use, not people who have not used one or have not read of their use or spoken to others who have used one. Which I believe describes you and until you do use one or speak to someone who has you cannot comment in an informed manner, or are you claiming to be an expert in tools you have never used ?

Jaro I would take advice from you WRT self bows as being informed, you are known to make bows and have done so for some time and have a certain expertise in it, however the mere fact you make bows does not make you an expert in all things to do with bows let alone anything else..

The tool may turn out to be useless but I would not take the word of someone who has not used one and who dismisses it out of hand.


Let me ask you these questions, I will ignore the cost of such a large piece of carbon steel at a time when even Knights had little of it in their armour and when axes were the favourite weapon of many because they were less expensive than swords due to the fact that only the cutting edge needed to be carbon steel with the back of the axe being soft iron.

If all the tool is is a rasp and therefore essentially made out of metal why is it so big? It would be too heavy and unwieldy to be used on bows.

If the tool is a rasp why is it not shaped as are files today,  especially as files dating from the 14th C have been found and they are similar to the shape of those used today? see:

http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/wood.shtml

If the tool is a rasp why attach the handle in such a difficult way, drilling through carbon steels is difficult, why not just make a handle as is done today and was done on the 14th C files?

If the tool is a rasp why go to the trouble of forging blade like teeth when it is far simpler to make rasp teeth by lifting small sections by hammering  punches into the hot metal as is the way rasps are made today and have been made in the past?

Craig.

[Jaro]

 Go to Richard Heads site, there is video link on first page to a display case with medieval bowyers tools. While the spokeshave and handplane are somehow more modern that I would expect (more like 18-19. century). he has there very good all forged bowyers flote, which is by means single cut rasp or coarse file.

http://www.english-longbow.co.uk/

Whillst both versions might be possible, this is actually what I see and perseive as correct.

J.

[CraigMBeckett]

Jaro,

I would also suggest you acquaint yourself with the rules of this site specifically rules 4 and 5.

Craig.

[Rod]

That's quite enough of this kind of nonsense.

Jaro,
If you can't be polite, keep it to yourself.
Don't post it here.

Craig,
If we are going to be adult about it, let it go.
You have made your point.

Rod.

[bow-toxo]

Let me ask you these questions, I will ignore the cost of such a large piece of carbon steel at a time when even Knights had little of it in their armour and when axes were the favourite weapon of many because they were less expensive than swords due to the fact that only the cutting edge needed to be carbon steel with the back of the axe being soft iron.

http

Craig.

     If I may, I will try to answer your questions if we can drop Chinese tools for the moment and return to topic The carbon steel would only be needed in a one millimetre thick blade perhaps 3” wide and 5”long. Spears were more usual than axes and used even less steel. Eleventh century Viking swords were of a Damascus core with carbon steel cutting edges, but some were already being made of solid steel. And let’s not forget case hardening as used on arrowheads.     


Q--If all the tool is is a rasp and therefore essentially made out of metal why is it so big? It would be too heavy and unwieldy to be used on bows.

A—I would suggest that the cutting part is metal attached to wooden top and handle. It appears to be silver because heraldic charges were in solid colors, red lions etc.

Q---If the tool is a rasp why is it not shaped as are files today,  especially as files dating from the 14th C have been found and they are similar to the shape of those used today?:

A---I consider it more like a file than a rasp. It is shaped like float files today. Same cut. It would be used like a surform tool as another post suggested. 14th century tools were not all identical to each other

Q--If the tool is a rasp why attach the handle in such a difficult way, drilling through carbon steels is difficult, why not just make a handle as is done today and was done on the 14th C files?

A---The mediaeval version is mounted to be used like a surform tool or a plane, as is done today. It would be used to cut along the stave rather than across it. Punching a hole through white hot high carbon steel is not hard at all.

Q---If the tool is a rasp why go to the trouble of forging blade like teeth when it is far simpler to make rasp teeth by lifting small sections by hammering  punches into the hot metal as is the way rasps are made today and have been made in the past.

A---See above. Viking era sword mounts were sometimes decorated with patterns in silver, copper, and brass wire inlaid in narrow undercut grooves very close to each other, the whole hammered flat completely covering the iron. A smith that could do that would have no problem cutting a float file with a flat chisel.

BTW; Some Mary Rose bows, at least those that I handled, have more than their share of prominent pins and knots.

                                                                                           Cheers,
                                                                                           Erik