Author Topic: Arrow Pass/Handle location  (Read 9708 times)

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Offline silberz

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Arrow Pass/Handle location
« on: May 03, 2010, 12:58:06 pm »
Sorry for such a basic question but hopefully someone here can answer.
Why is it that the arrow pass mark is off set from the top string nock compared to the lower string nock, In other words why is the arrow pass mark not dead center when measured from top and bottom string nocks.
Thank you




Offline jthompson1995

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Re: Arrow Pass/Handle location
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2010, 01:22:38 pm »
It's so your bow hand is located at the center of balance of the bow and the draw feels even. If your arrow pass was at the center of balance and your bow hand below it, the top limb of the bow would want to pull back and hit you in the head when you draw or you'd have to grip the bow too tight to keep it upright.
A man who works with his hands is a laborer, a man who works with his hands and his mind is a craftsman, but a man who works with his hands, his mind and his heart is an artist. - Louis Nizer (1902-1994)

Offline Davepim

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Re: Arrow Pass/Handle location
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2010, 05:06:36 am »
Sorry for such a basic question but hopefully someone here can answer.
Why is it that the arrow pass mark is off set from the top string nock compared to the lower string nock, In other words why is the arrow pass mark not dead center when measured from top and bottom string nocks.
Thank you





Silberz,
    The very first bow I ever made had the arrow pass dead centre and it wasn't at all a problem; however it's said to be better up from the centre.

Dave

Offline alanesq

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Re: Arrow Pass/Handle location
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2010, 12:15:46 pm »

If you hold the bow so that it is supported at its centre by your hand when drawing it
the arrow rest should then be just above your hand
i.e. if the arrow was at the centre of the bow, then the bow is not bending from its centre and so the limbs would be different lengths

Offline Davepim

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Re: Arrow Pass/Handle location
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2010, 05:04:07 am »

If you hold the bow so that it is supported at its centre by your hand when drawing it
the arrow rest should then be just above your hand
i.e. if the arrow was at the centre of the bow, then the bow is not bending from its centre and so the limbs would be different lengths

Yes but the bow will bend along its length wherever you hold it - merely having your hand in a particular spot on the bow doesn't prevent it bending there. I have to say that there is always more length of bow above your hand than below it, just that the arrow pass is said to be better placed an inch or so above dead centre. That first bow I made always shot very sweetly even though the arrow pass was dead centre.

Dave

Offline alanesq

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Re: Arrow Pass/Handle location
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2010, 05:59:16 am »

It will still bend along it's length, but wont the loads on the limbs be out of balance ?

Isn't the point of an arrow pass mark to dictate where you hold the bow ?

Offline Davepim

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Re: Arrow Pass/Handle location
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2010, 06:37:02 am »
Yes Alan you are correct, the arrow pass dictates where you hold the bow, but the lower limb of a warbow is in any case supposed to be slightly stiffer than the upper, and so accomodates this slight difference in load on the limbs. I find it very difficult to explain exactly what I mean here, so apologies if I am causing confusion :D I can only say, by way of excuse, that even using dead centre of the bow as the arrow pass seems to work, only that it probably isn't optimal; I just go with what the real experts tell me :)

Dave

Offline alanesq

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Re: Arrow Pass/Handle location
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2010, 07:10:47 am »

I understand what you mean, and I agree with you
a bow can be made to be drawn from any point (e.g. the Japanese bows)

I have heard it said that the limbs on a warbow should not be equal but I am not sure if this is the case or if it just comes from people not realising that the handle area should not be located at the centre if the bow is to be supported from its centre (i.e. they see the handle is not perfectly central so assume the limbs are different lengths)?
I wonder where the arrow pass was located on the Mary Rose bows ?

Offline bow-toxo

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Re: Arrow Pass/Handle location
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2010, 02:20:02 am »

I understand what you mean, and I agree with you
a bow can be made to be drawn from any point (e.g. the Japanese bows)

I have heard it said that the limbs on a warbow should not be equal but I am not sure if this is the case or if it just comes from people not realising that the handle area should not be located at the centre if the bow is to be supported from its centre (i.e. they see the handle is not perfectly central so assume the limbs are different lengths)?
I wonder where the arrow pass was located on the Mary Rose bows ?


As mentioned in a nother post;Since we are making longbows of the late mediaeval period, it might make sense to use the method used at the time. Balance the arc tillered bow on the thumb, then close the hand on the bow. No need to mark anything. You might glue a leather strip at the arrow pass like one of the Mary Rose bows.

                                                                                                                       Erik

DCM4

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Re: Arrow Pass/Handle location
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2010, 10:42:45 am »
It's awefully complicated, to be so simple.  ;-)

The best answer I can come up with is, (the arbitrary 2") above center orientation is an artifact of the engineering influences in the early 20th century (Hickman, Nagler, Klopsteg), promoted and made possible by the use of modern materials which immediately followed.

Wrt to the physics, one must consider the role of string angle.  For a demonatration, fold your fave bow string in half, then note the location of center in relation to your nock point.  Positive tiller's purpose is to offset this inherent asymetry, of drawing the arrow, necessarily, above the fulcum of the bow hand, also most frequently above dimensional center of the bow.

What I've determined is you can "time" a bow regardless, within reason, of the relative lenghts of the two limbs.  I personally value having the arrow pass closer to center, because I can find no justification for handicapping the upper limb by making it both shorter, and necessarily weaker, which puts it doubly at a disadvantage to the lower.  When building with natural materials, where we tread as close it's elastic threshold as possible (even beyond in most cases), I prefer to not give the lower limb a "free ride."

It's a really, really good question and study of it will reveal many fundamental, and most frequently not appretiated, aspects of the bowyer's craft.  That said, I think most bowyers still use trial and error to time their bows, regardless of the predetermined design and geometry.

With a full arc, so called "bendy handle" bow, one really must shoot it according to it's design, that is placing the bow hand fulcrum at the stiffest point along it's lenght regardless of where that point falls.  Or risk getting beaten to death by the resulting handshock.  And even on stiff handled bows, one risks pulling a limb out of tiller if you shoot it much different than it was designed.

I look at it as a triangle, arrow pass, positive tiller and nock point.  The higher the arrow pass, the more tiller required.  The more tiller, the higher the nock point.  Since there's a lower limit to nock point (below which one risks interference between the arrow and knuckle/arrow rest), the bowyer's task is to put in just enough tiller so nock point can be used to adjust this back out, or in, according to the style (high wrist versus heeling, three under or split) of the archer.  Heeling/split calling for more tiller, and high wrist/three under opposite.

But I'd love to hear my ideas challenged.  It's far from resolved in my own thinking, although I've dedicated a great deal of thought, research and experimentation to the subject.

« Last Edit: May 14, 2010, 10:48:10 am by DCM4 »

Offline Marc St Louis

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Re: Arrow Pass/Handle location
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2010, 11:51:36 pm »
Didn't we have this conversation a few months ago?
Home of heat-treating, Corbeil, On.  Canada

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Offline bow-toxo

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Re: Arrow Pass/Handle location
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2010, 01:05:49 am »
It's awefully complicated, to be so simple.  ;-)

The best answer I can come up with is, (the arbitrary 2") above center orientation is an artifact of the engineering influences in the early 20th century (Hickman, Nagler, Klopsteg), promoted and made possible by the use of modern materials which immediately followed.

Wrt to the physics, one must consider the role of string angle.  For a demonatration, fold your fave bow string in half, then note the location of center in relation to your nock point.  Positive tiller's purpose is to offset this inherent asymetry, of drawing the arrow, necessarily, above the fulcum of the bow hand, also most frequently above dimensional center of the bow.

What I've determined is you can "time" a bow regardless, within reason, of the relative lenghts of the two limbs.  I personally value having the arrow pass closer to center, because I can find no justification for handicapping the upper limb by making it both shorter, and necessarily weaker, which puts it doubly at a disadvantage to the lower.  When building with natural materials, where we tread as close it's elastic threshold as possible (even beyond in most cases), I prefer to not give the lower limb a "free ride."

It's a really, really good question and study of it will reveal many fundamental, and most frequently not appretiated, aspects of the bowyer's craft.  That said, I think most bowyers still use trial and error to time their bows, regardless of the predetermined design and geometry.

With a full arc, so called "bendy handle" bow, one really must shoot it according to it's design, that is placing the bow hand fulcrum at the stiffest point along it's lenght regardless of where that point falls.  Or risk getting beaten to death by the resulting handshock.  And even on stiff handled bows, one risks pulling a limb out of tiller if you shoot it much different than it was designed.

I look at it as a triangle, arrow pass, positive tiller and nock point.  The higher the arrow pass, the more tiller required.  The more tiller, the higher the nock point.  Since there's a lower limit to nock point (below which one risks interference between the arrow and knuckle/arrow rest), the bowyer's task is to put in just enough tiller so nock point can be used to adjust this back out, or in, according to the style (high wrist versus heeling, three under or split) of the archer.  Heeling/split calling for more tiller, and high wrist/three under opposite.

But I'd love to hear my ideas challenged.  It's far from resolved in my own thinking, although I've dedicated a great deal of thought, research and experimentation to the subject.



 Good luck.

DCM4

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Re: Arrow Pass/Handle location
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2010, 09:32:23 am »
Reckon you could remember enough of the title I could find it Marc.

Liked your posts Bow-toxo, but didn't get the last one.  I've built 'em both ways, and to be honest there's not a compelling difference as far as I can determine.

Offline alanesq

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Re: Arrow Pass/Handle location
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2010, 06:07:19 am »

If the bow is bending at it's centre (i.e. the centre of the bow is the centre of contact with your hand when drawing it)
then the arrow will be sitting an inch or so above the centre of the bow (and so will your nocking point)

If you make the arrow shoot from the centre of the bow then the limbs will have to be different lengths

Not sure which is correct, but I prefer the former as this keeps the bow a perfect segment of a circle which I have always understood is what a full compass bow should be ????