Author Topic: What is "Warbow"  (Read 99604 times)

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duffontap

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Re: What is "Warbow"
« Reply #45 on: May 08, 2007, 02:54:06 pm »
Kviljo,

What I was saying was, if you believe you have a legitimate English Warbow that is different than the Mary Rose bows, prove that it is legitimate with textual evidence or historical artwork.  We know that bows made to the Mary Rose specs are true English Warbows because the Mary Rose bows prove it.  I am not interested in letting the definition of 'English Warbow' get totally watered-down by assuming that the English 'must have' used various styles of warbows.  Speculation is worth nothing in historical research.  We have more than the Mary Rose bows to show that the MR style warbow was standard in England.  Iconic and textual evidence support it as well.  People make the mistake of thinking the MR bows are the only evidence we have--that's not true.

I'm not saying the bows have to be Yew--we have lots of textual evidence that white woods were used. 

            J. D. Duff

Offline Kviljo

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Re: What is "Warbow"
« Reply #46 on: May 08, 2007, 03:38:04 pm »
Steve:
Absolutely, MR bow are warbows, but warbows were probably more than MR bows. :)  So I wouldn't use the warbow-term too strictly.

For MR-bows, I would suggest that we cant make the artefacts, so we would have to call them replicas. And that implies millimeter-accuracy. All others would just be inspired by the artefacts at some level.

What kind of tool is a float? If you got the time, I guess it's not just me who would love to see even more :)


JD:
I agree. All I'm suggesting is that the EWB has gone through some evolution, and that the MR-bows does not reflect all warbows that has been used by the english :)
So lenghtwise and powerwise and other minor variations should not be sneered upon as totally incorrect. That is if you call your bow a warbow, not a MR-bow.

I think we have seen some examples of white-wood bows beeing made with a similar width as the MR-bows, with quite substantial draw-weights, so I would definitely not suggest that for example flatbows have been used.

Offline D. Tiller

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Re: What is "Warbow"
« Reply #47 on: May 08, 2007, 04:09:41 pm »
I have to agree with Kviljo. We just dont know for certain what was used earlier in time. I believe weights had to progressivly increase with time. This would be the old armor vs projectile race. Better armor over time means heavier bows. So I dont think we should limit ourselves to draw weights as a determining factor in what constitutes a warbow. Things which probably varied over time, to culmination in the Mary Rose Warbows, were likly to be weight of draw, overall length of bow, length of draw, and handle placement being offset from center line or not. But I think the rounded belly and basic width of the bow and overall outline of the warbow would likly remain the same.

Overall the warbow is really a pretty simple design for a bow compared to others found arround the world. The same basic shape has been found throughout Europe, Africa and the Americas throughout time. Its quick to make when the wood is of high quality and straight of grain. Casts an arrow efficiently with long draw lengths. Because of its ease in manufacture it would be a bow easly mass produced to put in the hands of numerous archers about to head to war. Its simple, robust, uncomplicated and just plain fits the neads of the people who used them. I LIKE IT!!!  ;D
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marvin

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Re: What is "Warbow"
« Reply #48 on: May 08, 2007, 05:39:39 pm »
Well said J.D.

So based on actual evidence the basic design characteristics of an English War Bow would be the following?

1) Typically over 90# draw weight with many well over 100# being drawn 30" to 32"?
2) The bow bends throughout it's entire length?
3) It is typically a single stave but there are examples of backing being used?
4) Yew was the wood of choice but there were examples of other woods like elm being used?
5) The cross section was oval/rounded. Not a high stacked belly or a flat back right?

Help me nail this down. Bring facts and evidence to the table.


Offline outcaste

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Re: What is "Warbow"
« Reply #49 on: May 08, 2007, 06:00:41 pm »
Hi Marvin,

There is evidence of squarish section bows, these being arguably the heavier draw weights.

Due to character of staves some bows might not draw full compass being a little stiff in the handle

Not sure if any backed bows were found on the MR though they were certainly backed later due to lack of good wood
 

Cheers, Outcaste

Offline D. Tiller

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Re: What is "Warbow"
« Reply #50 on: May 08, 2007, 06:43:20 pm »
I think we may need to differentiate warbows into two classes. It seems that we know for certain what warbows looked like in later days from the finds on the Mary Rose. These I would designate Mary Rose Warbows. There are also those bows we speculate may have been built earlier. These I would call Possable Pre-Mary Rose Warbows. I still think limitting the weight of the bow to 90# and over is a bit pre-mature for the reason I stated in an earlier post. Increased draw weights were likly a result of increases in strength of armor. If we can match this against strength of armor over time back to the beginning of the use of warbows I bet we could draw a correlation to possible draw weights. Probably shaft size of arrows also increased over time. Its speculation but a good possibility.

David T
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Offline Justin Snyder

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Re: What is "Warbow"
« Reply #51 on: May 08, 2007, 09:25:01 pm »
D Tiller The major advantage of the bow is being able to kill the enemy before he can kill you. Archers stood very little chance against mounted knights at close range. If you have 3000 men comming after you, you DO NOT wait until they are close then try to kill them all before they close the distance. I would suggest that the weight was much more than armor penetration. If I can start killing at a greater distance, there is a better chance of me getting the enemy stopped before they get me. Furthermore, most of the guys they were shooting were on foot, and the armor was too dang heavy to wear while walking.

I would like to see other types of wood used. I plan to build an osage in the warbow style. It will be titled English warbow STYLE bow.  I also think in the interest of not letting the art die lighter bows for guys who cannot draw 100 pounds should be posted.  But it should be labeled 60# English Warbow Style LIGHT WEIGHT bow.  You would not bring a pellet gun to a gun fight, so do not call it a warbow if it isn't. Justin
Everything happens for a reason, sometimes the reason is you made a bad decision.


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jb.68

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Re: What is "Warbow"
« Reply #52 on: May 08, 2007, 09:40:42 pm »
Are we not getting a bit anal about this guys? I have two bows built to the M/R style, they are 100lb @ 32" and 105lb @ 32" they are laminates but they are to all intent and purpose warbow replicas, I cannot be arsed to keep calling them replicas, warbow style or any other politicaly correct name. I can't afford to chuck 650 notes on a real yew bow. So therefore these are as close as I get to a warbow. if that upsets anyone I'll gladly clear off. Btw to the person who made reference to firing arrows.... We don't, we shoot or loose 'em... if were being really anal  :-*  ;)

Offline D. Tiller

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Re: What is "Warbow"
« Reply #53 on: May 08, 2007, 10:06:02 pm »
JB.68 I agree totally. I'm with you on the money thing. I would love to fork out for yew but just cant do it right now. Have some lowdown on some Osage so may go and pick some of that up to turn into a warbow in the 80# range.

I too think any wood should be a go too. Lets not get too technical either. We are suposed to be having fun with this stuff  not argueing over technicalities. Personally I'm out to really just enjoy the design and have fun.  If you want to replicate the design to the T for scientific purposes go ahead and go for it. If not go for it too. I'm comming to the conclusion semantics will just force us appart and not together as this site is supposed to do. Maybe we should just mention if we are working to do a study or not. Seems good for me.
“People are less likely to shoot at you if you smile at them” - Mad Jack Churchill

Offline alanesq

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Re: What is "Warbow"
« Reply #54 on: May 09, 2007, 03:16:32 am »
I think it depends what you want;

If your aim is to experience shooting a warbow then laminate bows are ideal (being cheap)

If your aim is to have a acurate replica of a medieval warbow then you need a self bow etc.


btw - It seems a good way of knowing if your bow is a warbow is when archery clubs wont let you use it ;-)

sagitarius boemoru

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Re: What is "Warbow"
« Reply #55 on: May 09, 2007, 10:02:59 am »
Well said J.D.

So based on actual evidence the basic design characteristics of an English War Bow would be the following?

1) Typically over 90# draw weight with many well over 100# being drawn 30" to 32"?
2) The bow bends throughout it's entire length?
3) It is typically a single stave but there are examples of backing being used?
4) Yew was the wood of choice but there were examples of other woods like elm being used?
5) The cross section was oval/rounded. Not a high stacked belly or a flat back right?

Help me nail this down. Bring facts and evidence to the table.




1) Yes. We can extrapolate weight from common traits of design and performance requirements. By the half of 14. century plate armour was availble to wealthier noble and plate parts to most of the nobility. By the end it was standart. Around 1450 it was common even for infantryman and lots of older italian and german armour sees infanterization. Expect 2 big leaps in technology. One is with the integration of bows into english military system, that would be first rapid increase of weight over short period of time, together with standartised usage of hornnocks. Since heavy hunting bow at the time was around 75#, think that around 100# has become normal for war. Mind you, there are older bows from the area more heavy than this. Second big leap probably occured by the time of Azincourt, where necessity of shooting against plate armour dictated further increase of arrow weight and also strenght of the bow. Reasonable quality armour of the time does resist anything under 125# and 3 oz arrow. (There was a troup of men at arms at azincourt marching through arrowstorm, but since that was probably 500 best armour sets on battlefield together with shields it cannot be looked upon as "standart".)
Its obvious that the bow can only develop to certain point as the limitations of human body and also requirements of training become unfeasable on larger scale. See paralel in Selbys stunning book "Chinese archery". I dont expect much improvement or increase of weight past wars of roses, by the time of MR the whole field was stagnating for some time. Arrow in naval warfare sees some development in 16. century. (Well if the bow is on its limits, you can only improve amunition)

2) There is many shapes recorded in contemporary pictography, though the extreme can be discarded as bad quality items. We shall not forget that they too were capable of making badly tilered bows. Full tilered bows do seem to be slightly shorter than the rest in Froissart chronicles. On MR bows the bend in middle portion happens only in last 3´´ of pull or some.

3) No backings since late 16. century. They probably laminated yew on yew when decent staves werent at hand at the end of 15. and there is written continental account of this. But we have no bows until 17. century. Two bows of yew backed with single ash and elm rings are in Archery hall in Edinburg.

4) Listed yes, but we dont have any of the bows. Me and my buddy make some respectable ash longbows in 100#+ range and they do not come to the same shape as MR bows and the wood has to be specially sellected. Elm for cheapo bows and Laburnum for expensive and flashy bow was wood of choice. I think that "Hazel" listed as wood for bows is etymological bogus. (Generated from "Wytch" - which is not wytch hazel, but wytch elm)

5) Yes. Mostly. I m sure we could find exception, but the staves were from small diameter logs, means they have been crowned and the edges were rounded. There is some variation of profile on MR bows from which the profile with small flat surfaces on sides of staves is most distinctive. The genesis of such profile during making of the bow is well known and described by Roy King in Hardy´s book.


J.


marvin

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Re: What is "Warbow"
« Reply #56 on: May 09, 2007, 10:48:46 am »
Thanks Jaraslov!

Regarding #2

So the middle "handle" area of the bow would only show/feel movement as it approached full draw but appear stiff from brace and early draw stages?

#4 You mention that the ash EWB's you've made don't come to the same shape as the MR bows. Could you explain further. Are you refering to the tiller shape or the crosss setion?

#5 How wide are these flat areas on the sides? Do these flats exist mostly in the center section of the bow or do they exist the full length of the bows side?


sagitarius boemoru

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Re: What is "Warbow"
« Reply #57 on: May 09, 2007, 12:36:38 pm »
Thanks Jaraslov!

Regarding #2

So the middle "handle" area of the bow would only show/feel movement as it approached full draw but appear stiff from brace and early draw stages?

#4 You mention that the ash EWB's you've made don't come to the same shape as the MR bows. Could you explain further. Are you refering to the tiller shape or the crosss setion?

#5 How wide are these flat areas on the sides? Do these flats exist mostly in the center section of the bow or do they exist the full length of the bows side?



Marvin

#2 Exactly so

4# Ash good for such bow must be very dense, same as elm. Whatever we do, they come out too narrow and the tips have to be really narrow too. The tapers in width such as on MR bows dont work. Also theyare slightly flatbacked because good wood is in larger trees. You need ash with SG 0.85 and more. The same with elm.

#5 Not much. Around 4-6 mm and they only go through  mid third of the bow as the profile gets more round to ends. Take a look at set of profiles scanned from Hardys book, they are around in this forum. One of them is the profile I m speaking about.

Jaro

Offline alanesq

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Re: What is "Warbow"
« Reply #58 on: May 09, 2007, 04:14:00 pm »
im lucky where i shoot im aloud to shoot any weight and style of bow  ;D the only restriction i have is i cant shoot bodkins at targets for obvious reasons ;D

Hi there Ratty :-)
I am ok in my target club so far but I am not sure how my 120lb bow will go as its looking like its going to be a lot more powerful ?
My field club wont entertain the idea of a heavy bow
Apart from the occasional rove,  I don't have anywhere else to shoot so if my target club stop me I am pretty much stuffed :-(
I really need to find someone with a big field who will let me use it ?

-------------

On the subject of what is a warbow - It was mentioned on another forum a while back that current thinking on the Mary Rose bows was they were all made to be the same weight (i.e. 140lbs) but I have not seen any mention of this theory anywhere else, usually they are quoted as being between 80 and 180lbs

« Last Edit: May 09, 2007, 04:15:55 pm by alanesq »

Offline Kviljo

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Re: What is "Warbow"
« Reply #59 on: May 09, 2007, 05:23:58 pm »
4# Ash good for such bow must be very dense, same as elm. Whatever we do, they come out too narrow and the tips have to be really narrow too. The tapers in width such as on MR bows dont work. Also theyare slightly flatbacked because good wood is in larger trees. You need ash with SG 0.85 and more. The same with elm.

That's interesting :) I've sort of had the same experience. The problem, as I see it, is that the bow will be way too wide and thin at the grip to be comfortable, if you apply MR-width on ash. There are a couple of solutions I think, you could add leather, leave the center thicker and not bending as much as it's yew counterparts, or narrow the whole bow till it has a better width/thickness ratio. Adding some extra inches in lenght would allow for a thicker and narrower grip also.

But I'm not sure that mixing high draw-weight and too narrow, is a good thing with ash. After all stringfollow is an issue with these bows too.

This one is 37x32mm at the grip, 80" long, and 80-90 @ 32". As you see I left the grip as thick as possible without disturbing the tiller too much. After some 500 shots it has just under 2" stringfollow measured from the back. It has a front profile quite similar to MR-spec.
http://kviljo.no/bue/img_2804.jpg

Drawn:
http://kviljo.no/bue/92.jpg


It would be interesting to hear of other white-wood "warbows", and their dimensions. If we could find the best way to make a "warbow" from white-woods, I bet we wont be far from the ones used 500 years ago.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2007, 05:26:25 pm by kviljo »