Author Topic: We nead a Chainmail penetration test!  (Read 34322 times)

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Offline D. Tiller

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Re: We nead a Chainmail penetration test!
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2007, 02:35:11 pm »
Since I m evil as usually, I ll ask a different question.

What is objective not that of the test, but the one upon which you decide that the setup is correct or not?
Ultimatelly 1/2´´ shaft shot from 75# is lazy bitch, but I m certain it will pierce chainmail. Then....What will actually be conclusive.


J.

Hi Jaro;

Actually what we are testing for are the minnimums of early warbow weights and shaft diameters. We will not be shooting just 1/2" diameter shafts but also 3/8" andf possible smaller. The idea is to try and find out where the warbow started from and what the minimums were for shooting distance and punching through chainmail. I've seen lots of test done on late Mary Rose designs shooting 1/2" shafts but none trying to find out what was being used at the beginning of warbow use when chainmail was what had to be defeated.

Guys this is a minnimum test and not a maximum test. We should stick with woods used durring that age to make it as realistic as possible. Also, finding the socket diameter of the bodkins used durring that time will give us an idea of what diameter shafts were being used at the time and what we should also aim for in our tests.

Dont think we will nead a full wrap arround set of chainmail for the test. just something to cover the chest area we can attach to a soft target. Then set the target at different ranges and see which bows and diameter shafts will punch through the links at the different distances. I was looking at the long needle bodkin point since this seems to be the design that was used early on at the beginning of the use of the warbow.

Unfortunatly I dont have the bows or equipment that spread the gambut so nead some help in trying this out.

David T


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Offline Loki

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Re: We nead a Chainmail penetration test!
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2007, 08:37:03 pm »
Quote
We should stick with woods used durring that age to make it as realistic as possible. Also, finding the socket diameter of the bodkins used durring that time will give us an idea of what diameter shafts were being used at the time and what we should also aim for in our tests.

What about type 1's?if i'm not mistaken it was the main warhead used by the Saxon's and there must be a reason for the reinforced spine,why not for penetrating mail?allthough the Viking's of the Danelaw used a longBodkin similar to type 7's.
The battle at Halidon Hill ( Hali-dun in Saxon) was were Edward earned his spurs tactically,but were Bodkins in use at this time? The Northern Army's from Northumbria,Durham and Yorke mainly fought against the Scots,not the French,that was the southernors.I dont think the Northernors had a need for armour piercing heads like the men fighting the French did,i think Type 1's will do very nicely against a Scot wearing his mail (if lucky) and/or a jack (doubtful).
« Last Edit: May 15, 2007, 10:34:34 pm by Loki »
Durham,England

Miles

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Re: We nead a Chainmail penetration test!
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2007, 09:38:15 pm »
Hi D.Tiller,

I have riveted and butted chain mail it is a relatively weak defense against bows you'd be surprised how weak it is we had a kid with a 24 pound little bear recurve bow and some Kmart target arrows shooting from about 20 yards penetrating the armor.

I don't like shooting the riveted chain mail because the time it takes to repair the armor in the cost of the armor hauberk cost over $800.
There's all sorts of factors going in to the defense of chain mail likely patterns ring size and metallurgy.
Most of this armor was used in conjunction with other forms of armor for example jacks(a later period armor of bowman)  Which comes in several configurations and is basically multiple layers(12 or more) of linen with some form of padding material like grass.

I do not have much information on the exact layers of material that would have been warned in that earlier time period in conjunction with chain mail figure will be linen and wool.

But you're on the West Coast, and I'm on the East Coast so I'll have to pass supplying you with the chain mail target .


Miles

Offline mullet

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Re: We nead a Chainmail penetration test!
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2007, 10:46:16 pm »
 Iv'e been reading this and really know nothing about mail except of the Conquistidors and what you guy's are discussing. Which by the way is fasinating. I do know and it is a fact ,that the Timuacan Indians in Florida at the time of the Spanish exploration were reported to be shooting 90 to 120# bows.They were shooting cane arrows and there is numerous recordings in history of the chainmail being penetrated by cane arrows,splintering and soldiers dieing from infection in the tropical heat.This includes Hernando DeSoto hisself,buried in the Mississippi River.The arrows in question were almost always fire hardend sharpened cane points.
Lakeland, Florida
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Len

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Re: We nead a Chainmail penetration test!
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2007, 11:24:03 pm »
Some great info on alternative armours has surfaced but its still not the type of thick padded garment we see appearing in the mid 12thC. However it probably seems I'm splitting hairs here so we can safely say some form of padding needs to be under the maille for the test. Having seen what an arrow 11/32 with short and long bodkins shot from a 60lb bow will do to maille I'd say you would need a lot of padding to slow an arrow down and I would say to much padding would have to be worn in most circumstances to bo practicall to fight in.

Offline D. Tiller

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Re: We nead a Chainmail penetration test!
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2007, 11:45:33 pm »
Interresting, how about at longer ranges. Can the lighter bows with lighter arrows still penetrate at the greater distances? I would think to put an arrow out to 200 or more yards with a 11/32 or 3/8" arrow would need at least 70#'s and maybe 80# weight of draw.  I think the Saxon erra and Norman erra's may be a bit early for the warbow. Seems like it was not untill a bit later when they started using them in massed ranks in battle.

I think if we can get ahold of some chain mail and padding we can mail arround to people with different weight warbow we can have each person test with their own bows at different ranges.

David T
“People are less likely to shoot at you if you smile at them” - Mad Jack Churchill

Len

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Re: We nead a Chainmail penetration test!
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2007, 12:16:04 am »
The test we did was only at 20 metres but the ease of which it went through makes me think that if it had been hit by a plunging arrow at the bows max range it still would have gone through. I think the amount of padding is what will decide the arrow wieght and bow power needed to get decent penertration.In our test the the maille was drapped over some hession covered cardboard as we didn't have any akertons handy, however its worth noting that the wieght of maille (and its a lot heavier then plate armour) will compress the padding underneath to a certain degree lessening its effectiveness and padding over armour doesn't seem to have been common untill mid to late fourteenth C.

Offline D. Tiller

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Re: We nead a Chainmail penetration test!
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2007, 12:19:18 am »
So if we can find a bow that shoots arround 200 - 240 yards with light arrows with points from that erra we should get a realistic test? Cant wait to try it. Now to put everything together!  ;D
“People are less likely to shoot at you if you smile at them” - Mad Jack Churchill

Miles

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Re: We nead a Chainmail penetration test!
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2007, 03:05:30 am »
I'm posting this picture because it's neat looking target is repo 15th-century Jack with riveted chain mail but the test was performed with too light a bow 65 pounds and arrows were just 3/8" using needlepoint bodkins type 7 made by historic enterprise’s shooting from 40 yards this something one my friends was doing.

He has a Norman Kit and armor but I doubt to let us shoot at that.

The linen jack was 15 layers with wool padding it weighs about as much as a Vietnam era flak jacket the chain now I believe was 8mm riveted.

We've been talking about doing test with the heavier bows 90 plus pounds and bigger 1/2" wararrows but most of the stuff I'm testing is 15th-century but I'll ask the guys I know who studied the earlier time periods pre-12th-century what they used see what I can come up with.

Miles



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« Last Edit: May 16, 2007, 03:15:43 am by Miles »

Len

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Re: We nead a Chainmail penetration test!
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2007, 05:16:04 am »
Great photo Miles, great stuff. Just bear in mind that jacks were usually a stand alone armour for lesser troops though I've no doubt those who could afford it would perhaps have worn plate or maille with it though it might be a bit heavy and cumbersome when worn wiyh other armours.

Rod

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Re: We nead a Chainmail penetration test!
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2007, 06:39:46 am »
Miles,
That looks pretty thin to me. Is it multiple layers of linen with a single layer of wool padding?
And what is the thread count and weight of the linen?
I sent a collection of linen samples (from Russell and Chapple) to a contact at the Royal Armouries as a basis for comparison after they were unable to answer a similar question about padded jacks.
Some time ago I put the sleeve of a padded jack on a hard Egertec straw boss and shot a standard arrow at 15 paces from a 60lb bow and penetrated the jack but got only about 1 1/2" of penetration into the boss. But the same sleeve on a foam field but got several inches of penetration.
The point of this is that unless ALL the elements in any test are truly representative of the real target of a war shaft, the results mean little.
It is necessary to reproduce ALL the elements of the target, not just one or two of them.
Despite what Jaro says about bulk a 14thC aketon worn over maille or a stand alone padded jack would have a lot more bulk than that. Your example looks more like what might be worn under plate.
Rod.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2007, 07:38:13 am by Rod »

Offline Loki

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Re: We nead a Chainmail penetration test!
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2007, 09:25:33 am »
Her's a thread from the sword forum,the armour guy's are of the opinion that mail protects very well against arrows.
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=45006
A lot of it is the usual nonsence but there's some intersting stuff there  :D.
Durham,England

Miles

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Re: We nead a Chainmail penetration test!
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2007, 11:35:18 pm »
it's a jack used separately or it can be worn in conjunction with other armors.
Here's the way I understand it for protection
 a jack of 30 layers of linen can stand alone
a jack of 25 layers and a leather shell can also stand alone
a jack of 10 or more layers should have a maille shirt with it
a jack that is several layers of canvas stuffed with raw wool, grass, horse hair or what ever they would've had and used.

From the ordinance of St. Maximin de Treves , published October of 1473.
In the section describing the equipment of members of a lance - specifically the mounted archer "The mounted archer must possess a horse worth not less than six francs, and should wear a visorless sallet, a gorget (This may mean a maille standard or bevor), a brigandine, or a sleeveless mail shirt under a ten layer jack"
From the Ordinances of Louis XI of France (1461-1483)
And first they must have for the said Jacks, 30, or at least 25 folds of cloth and a stag's skin; those of 30, with the stag's skin, being the best cloth that has been worn and rendered flexible, is best for this purpose, and these Jacks should be made in four quarters. The sleeves should be as strong as the body, with the exception of the leather, and the arm-hole of the sleeve must be large, which arm-hole should be placed near the collar, not on the bone of the shoulder, that it may be broad under the armpit and full under the arm, sufficiently ample and large on the sides below. The collar should be like the rest of the Jack, but not too high behind, to allow room for the sallet. This Jack should be laced in front, and under the opening must be a hanging piece [porte piece] of the same strength as the Jack itself. Thus the Jack will be secure and easy, provided that there be a doublet [pourpoint] without sleeves or collar, of two folds of cloth, that shall be only four fingers broad on the shoulder; to which doublet shall be attached the chausses. Thus shall the wearer float, as it were, within his jack and be at his ease; for never have been seen half a dozen men killed by stabs or arrow wounds in such Jacks, particularly if they be troops accustomed to fighting."


1st.  Picture Here's a better view of the jack from the side you can see it's thick it has over 15 layers of linen and un-woven raw wool padding to do not have a thread count on it at this time but I'm sure my friend will probably have the thread count.

I haven't started construction on my personal jack my linen was obtained from colonial Williamsburg Virginia is handwoven (so I don't know what the we've count is on it) which I figure it will probably be very much in the ballpark of the proper jack although mine will be with the breastplate and chain mail on basing my armor off of the Hans Memling St Ursula shrine artwork.2nd.  Picture


The photo of the Jack was not a arming doublet or a arming pourpoint (the little sleeveless vest designed to attach and hold up the plate leg armor of a harness) those armor undergarments have a lot of eyelets to tie the armor in place late 15th-century armor.

 Here's a picture of a blue arming doublet note the chain mill around the shoulders and around arms is used protect where in the parts that the plate armor doesn't fully cover note to laces coming from the shoulder’s social for attaching the polderons basically the metal shoulder pads.3rd.  Picture

Here he is in full Milanese armor.4th.  Picture

It seems no real evidence exists for the use of padded armor under chain mail during the 11th century Norman conquest and since bows were not regularly used in war for some dark age reason longbows wher used for hunting the time and sense they seen to be commonly used in Wales so what type of game wood they been hunting stags and boars maybe?
What type of terrain wood they been hunting on?
 What type of poundage wood you need to hunt that game in that terrain?

Cheers,
Miles


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« Last Edit: May 17, 2007, 04:47:15 am by Miles »

Miles

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Re: We nead a Chainmail penetration test!
« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2007, 11:38:59 pm »
And Pic 3 and 4

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Miles

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Re: We nead a Chainmail penetration test!
« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2007, 11:41:48 pm »
I hate to shoot and run ;D

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« Last Edit: May 16, 2007, 11:45:17 pm by Miles »