Author Topic: Spine consideration for war arrows  (Read 33991 times)

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Offline Pat B

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Spine consideration for war arrows
« on: June 11, 2007, 11:41:17 am »
Is there a spine consideration when building war arrows or does one just make an arrow with the dowel he has without adjusting the spine? Also, I noticed Jaro(I think) mentioned hardwood shoot arrows for war bows. Are hardwood shoots a reliable sourse of war arrows?  I make most of my arrows from sourwood(a local hardwood) shoots both for target shooting and hunting(same arrows for both).    Pat
Make the most of all that comes and the least of all that goes!    Pat Brennan  Brevard, NC

sagitarius boemoru

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Re: Spine consideration for war arrows
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2007, 12:34:23 pm »
Pat, they used two woods at most and that is ash and poplar.  Poplar does seem to be lighter, though if you weigh two shafts of the same measurements you get only about 5-10 grams of difference, which does not seem to be that much. I think that poplar main advantage is very low hysteresis, which causes it vibrate different than ash and thus fly better. The same reason makes oak very muggy shaft.

Anyway - they did not spined arrows even until post 1900´ or some as proper understanding of spine came in pre WW2 era, but they judged stiffness of arrows empirically by the weight of the shaft (and eventually diameter).
With warbows spine is not much of concern, the main problem is to have an arrow stiff enough - which does somehow just about work with the diameters of preserved arrows, give or take.

A 3/8´´ shaft works well from some 75# up to 100# where I think starts to be somehow weak, unless you sellect harder wood specifically, then tapered 1/2´´ is needed for bows up to 120# or 130# with rather long taper to nock and the heavier bow above that weight the less of the taper to nock (means longer mid portion of the bow is paralel).
I had some 12 mm (which is not yet 1/2´´) from very dense ash, which was from core and somehow green in collor and both Mark and Joe thought it was enough stiff for 150# and more.  I have noticed that in soft materials they penetrate better than full 1/2´´ because of smaller diameter.

I think that decent penetrator for 100# would be around 12 mm in 2/3´´ of the lenght to front, 10 cm of paralel shaft there , and tapered down to 3/8´´ nock (or rather 9 mm) and tapered to 10 mm where the arrowhead is fitted. This way it wont need to cut so big hole to go through.
I would only make them around 75-80 gr for 100#.

This is what I m now making for Berkelley for myself.

Jaro

 
« Last Edit: June 11, 2007, 07:24:14 pm by sagitarius boemoru »

Offline Pat B

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Re: Spine consideration for war arrows
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2007, 01:11:57 pm »
Thanks Jaro. What about hardwood shoot arrows?
 I use sourwood for most of my arrows and it is no problem finding shoots that are 1/2" diameter.   Pat
Make the most of all that comes and the least of all that goes!    Pat Brennan  Brevard, NC

sagitarius boemoru

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Re: Spine consideration for war arrows
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2007, 05:07:41 pm »
I dont know anything about shoots. I think wood in shoots is not enough hard.

J.

Offline Yeomanbowman

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Re: Spine consideration for war arrows
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2007, 06:39:21 pm »
Pat,
It seem very likely that shoots were used as there is a surviving  medieval order for shafts that specify them to be 'peeled'.  You don't need to peel a cleaved and planed wood shaft, only a green shoot.  It's in the first chapter of the Great Warbow, somewhere.  However, it's not just a case of how they fly.  What they do when they strike is just as important, hence the need for a stiff 1/2" shaft at the head.
Jeremy

Offline markinengland

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Re: Spine consideration for war arrows
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2007, 07:58:49 pm »
There are records of quite a few woods being sued for arrows, in the Great Warbow and also Toxiphilus. I can't rememner them all though. Some liek chestnut were obviously used but not thought very good.Ash was given an OK as it was heavier and gave a good "stripe2 or wound, but poplar thought  somewhat light I think.
I;ll have to have a bt of a read. Trouble is that Ascham bores the pants off me!
Mark in England

Lloyd

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Re: Spine consideration for war arrows
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2007, 09:05:12 pm »
see my post in the "What is a War Arrow" thread for a list of all the arrow woods that Ascham mentions.

Offline Pat B

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Re: Spine consideration for war arrows
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2007, 12:58:38 am »
I'm gonna see what I can come up with, weight wise with a 1/2" diameter sourwood(Oxydendrum arboreum) shoot shaft. What weight should I look for in a 1/2" shaft to make weight in a war arrow?
   Pat
Make the most of all that comes and the least of all that goes!    Pat Brennan  Brevard, NC

Lloyd

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Re: Spine consideration for war arrows
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2007, 01:40:23 am »
1/2" bob tailed ash would weigh anywhere from the mid 700's to the low 1000s of grains at 33" or so on average. Plus the head of course.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2007, 01:44:26 am by Lloyd »

Offline Pat B

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Re: Spine consideration for war arrows
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2007, 01:52:21 am »
I was thinking 1000gr+ for the total arrow weight. I'll have to do a bit of experimenting with different hardwood shoots to see which will make weight.    If nothing else, you guys are gonna make a war bow fletcher out of me. ;D     Pat
Make the most of all that comes and the least of all that goes!    Pat Brennan  Brevard, NC

Lloyd

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Re: Spine consideration for war arrows
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2007, 02:18:36 am »
1000-1200 grains is a good finished weight.
Then there are the joys of 8.5" feathers.

If you get any good hardwood shoots that are long enough and heavy enough let me know. Maybe we can trade for bodkins or something.

Offline Pat B

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Re: Spine consideration for war arrows
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2007, 03:10:29 pm »
Lloyd, I can definately get shoots long enough(up to or over 6') and they should be heavy enough. I will test some to see. My hunting arrows are 29" long and after removing lots of wood to correct the size and spine my finished arrows usually come out 600+grains with a 125grain point. I believe I could easily have 800grain arrows with no problem.
   I will do a bit of testing to see what I come up with and get back with the results.   Pat
Make the most of all that comes and the least of all that goes!    Pat Brennan  Brevard, NC

sagitarius boemoru

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Re: Spine consideration for war arrows
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2007, 04:35:54 pm »
Pat, its not english, but there are some cossack arrows made out of hazle shots from Berestezcko battlefield (1610) - the idea is if you chose the right ones, they come tapered. I think hazel would be quite good as its heavy and its eay to find some shots which taper roughly from 1/2´´ to 3/8´´ in one arrowlenght.
It also does contain relativelly low ammount of marrow for a shot.

Jaro

Offline Pat B

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Re: Spine consideration for war arrows
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2007, 05:01:00 pm »
The natural taper of shoots make them less spine sensative. On my average hunting arrow(that's what I know about) I can use a shaft that has 10# heavier spine weigh then what your bow normally shoots. I don't think I would have trouble finding sourwood shoots that tapered from 1/2" to 3/8" in 32". The hazle(coryalis[?]) that grows near here are small shrubs with few, if any straight shoots for arrows plus it grows in higher elevations along the Blue Ridge Parkway and illegal to cut.    Pat
Make the most of all that comes and the least of all that goes!    Pat Brennan  Brevard, NC

SimonUK

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Re: Spine consideration for war arrows
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2007, 05:17:04 pm »
As kids we used poplar shoots as arrows. They were nice and straight. I've no idea how they'd stand up in a warbow though.