Author Topic: Flintknapping, Reproducing, Replicating, Ethics, and Copper  (Read 13649 times)

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Offline iowabow

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Re: Flintknapping, Reproducing, Replicating, Ethics, and Copper
« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2013, 06:27:07 pm »
Lol outbackbob.... Cu later  >:D
(:::.) The ABO path is a new frontier to the past!

Offline Bone pile

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Re: Flintknapping, Reproducing, Replicating, Ethics, and Copper
« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2013, 08:39:57 am »
Glad I'm just an old fart that likes to make pointy rocks with whatever I can get my hands on.So if i'm wearing my glasses can I abo :o
Venice Florida

Offline iowabow

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Re: Flintknapping, Reproducing, Replicating, Ethics, and Copper
« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2013, 10:57:05 am »
I think the question is can you while "replicating"....I can't see well with my bifocals on so I take them off :laugh:
(:::.) The ABO path is a new frontier to the past!

Offline Dalton Knapper

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Re: Flintknapping, Reproducing, Replicating, Ethics, and Copper
« Reply #33 on: April 29, 2013, 04:19:04 pm »
Has anyone here ever asked the question "where are the antler billets?" I know that was purposefully vague, but seriously, if antler billets were widely used in flint knapping and used in the way we use them today (or at least similar), showing correct size and the type of wear like we see on a used billet, where are they represented sufficiently in the archeological record to be presumed as the common percussion tool? I have seen plenty of antler pressure flakers show up in museums, literature and on site related websites, but very, very few of the tools that most knappers today would recognize as a billet. And of those, many have quite square ends with little rounding and are pretty darn short (punches?). I wish I knew more, but I only know enough to raise this question. There are a boatload of hammer stones of all sorts, but what about billets in the archeological record?

Offline JackCrafty

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Re: Flintknapping, Reproducing, Replicating, Ethics, and Copper
« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2013, 05:12:39 pm »
Very good question.

The answer lies not in the remains of the tool themselves, but in the analysis of the debitage.  Tools are rarely found, and hammerstones are no exception.  For example, the Gault site in Texas (one of the largest, undisturbed, clovis workshops ever found) contains only ONE hard hammerstone.  No pressure flakers, no billets, no soft hammerstones, nothing but the one hard hammerstone.

The evidence of what the workers used for tools lies in the debitage:  "Although not found, osseous billets were likely used, because much of the debitage exhibits platform lipping and bulbs of force are diffuse."  Clovis Lithic Technology, Investigation of a Stratified Workshop at the Gault Site, Texas: Waters, Pevney, and Carlson, 2011, page 36.

(osseous means bone and/or antler)

So, aided by the process of "replication", archaeologists are able to look at the actual debitage, then compare that to debitage made by modern knappers under observation, and surmise that billets were used.

However, the reason this is such a good question is the fact that archaeologists together with modern knappers make a guess as to what tools were used and then, when they are able to produce similar results as the ancient knappers, they conclude that they have discovered the method, when all they have succeeded in doing is finding a possible method.  And many times the knappers are inexperienced, exposed to only one or two methods, and are often the archaeologists themselves.  Not good!

That's why I make such a big deal about why I think only expert knappers should be involved in replication.  The best knappers are familiar with MANY techniques, tools, and debitage types and are, hopefully, less likely to fudge the results to make it seem like their time replicating has been productive!

OK, that's my spiel for the day.

« Last Edit: April 29, 2013, 05:16:31 pm by jackcrafty »
Any critter tastes good with enough butter on it.

Patrick Blank
Midland, Texas
Youtube: JackCrafty, Allergic Hobbit, Patrick Blank

Where's Rock? Public Waterways, Road Cuts, Landscape Supply, Knap-Ins.
How to Cook It?  200° for 24hrs then 275° to 500° for 4hrs (depending on type), Cool for 12hr

Offline JackCrafty

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Re: Flintknapping, Reproducing, Replicating, Ethics, and Copper
« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2013, 05:45:30 pm »
With all that said, however, there is evidence of billets being used for flintknapping, especially in the Southwest where conditions have preserved many of the knapping tools.  One example is Grasshopper Pueblo.  Within the pueblo and in an area called "Room 246" the following was found:

76 hammerstones, of which 45 were probably for flintknapping, all in room 246.  They are made from either quartzite cobbles or battered chert cores.
43 antler hammers or billets, 26 from room 246.  These are short sections of the base of antlers with wear facets, nicks, and abrasions on the base resulting from knapping.
3 unmodified antler tine flakers in room 246.
58 total tine flakers in the pueblo showing various stages of wear,.
149 total pieces of antler beams cut unto short strips or cylinders, 18 of which were found in room 246 all with signs of use wear on one or both ends.
3 antler pieces with signs of being grooved or cut in preparation for the making of short strips.

The cut antler pieces are considered to be parts of compound pressure flakers similar to those found and/or historically documented in California and other sites in the Southwest.

Lithic Debitage, Context Form and Meaning: William Andrefsky Jr, 2001, pages 38-41.

There are also some references posted in this paleoplanet thread: http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/reply/382379/Re-Archeological-reports-of-baton-use#.UX7XjILrkZ0
« Last Edit: April 29, 2013, 06:14:57 pm by jackcrafty »
Any critter tastes good with enough butter on it.

Patrick Blank
Midland, Texas
Youtube: JackCrafty, Allergic Hobbit, Patrick Blank

Where's Rock? Public Waterways, Road Cuts, Landscape Supply, Knap-Ins.
How to Cook It?  200° for 24hrs then 275° to 500° for 4hrs (depending on type), Cool for 12hr

Offline iowabow

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Re: Flintknapping, Reproducing, Replicating, Ethics, and Copper
« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2013, 05:52:13 pm »
Ok on post 35 I agree with ya.
(:::.) The ABO path is a new frontier to the past!

Offline JackCrafty

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Re: Flintknapping, Reproducing, Replicating, Ethics, and Copper
« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2013, 06:12:26 pm »
You mean post #35 supports your position.   ;)  I'd be afraid if you agreed with me.   :o
Any critter tastes good with enough butter on it.

Patrick Blank
Midland, Texas
Youtube: JackCrafty, Allergic Hobbit, Patrick Blank

Where's Rock? Public Waterways, Road Cuts, Landscape Supply, Knap-Ins.
How to Cook It?  200° for 24hrs then 275° to 500° for 4hrs (depending on type), Cool for 12hr

Offline Dalton Knapper

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Re: Flintknapping, Reproducing, Replicating, Ethics, and Copper
« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2013, 06:23:59 pm »
Jackcrafty - good points there. Lithic analysis is probably a pretty good indicator for the reasons you stated.

I wonder what Harrington found relating to knapping tools during his Ozark Bluffdweller digs? There was certainly excellent preservation in some of those sites, but maybe he didn't even keep everything.

Offline Hunts with stone

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Re: Flintknapping, Reproducing, Replicating, Ethics, and Copper
« Reply #39 on: April 29, 2013, 08:21:27 pm »
I agree DL. Good points made. This does open ones eyes to the overall process. Thanks for all the input Gentlemen. We all learn from these discussions.

Offline iowabow

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Re: Flintknapping, Reproducing, Replicating, Ethics, and Copper
« Reply #40 on: April 29, 2013, 10:50:59 pm »
You mean post #35 supports your position.   ;)  I'd be afraid if you agreed with me.   :o
Gee I have just so much fight in me and can argue just one post at a time. Lol
(:::.) The ABO path is a new frontier to the past!

Offline iowabow

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Re: Flintknapping, Reproducing, Replicating, Ethics, and Copper
« Reply #41 on: April 29, 2013, 10:52:18 pm »
Thanks for the post I enjoyed it. Cu later
(:::.) The ABO path is a new frontier to the past!

Offline AncientArcher76

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Re: Flintknapping, Reproducing, Replicating, Ethics, and Copper
« Reply #42 on: April 30, 2013, 04:12:28 am »
I am probably going out on a limb here and its always good that conversations and topics are brought up seamingly again and again.  For my purpose I like to say I re-create "art" from the people before us.  Each and every one of us, native american or not, has a personal connection to stone tools and litic reduction.  I hear from people and family are u indian or somethng...really? Well getting back on topic, I know that here in NY there are several major Clovis workshops that play a significant role in "trying" to understand the past and there techniques used.  As in most of these sites hammerstone are alway abundant, sometimes antler tine and billets found but rarely are.  Its not hard to figure out that unless in a dry environment or a cave etc.. that over time antler and wood even if they used copper... in several years it would break down and decay, let alone several thousand years.  I personally do not think that anyone ever used copper for knapping as by the time the copper and bronze age came about the transistion from stone to metal tools were fading.  PLEASE do not quote me Im not a anthropologist but I think that digging into that informtion would help settle the theory which some may have about the use of copper.  My final opinion would be this... hammerstones are the all purpose all around tool,readily available just about anywhere water runs,  if you pulled up on a flint quarrie and had no tools and needed food and tools I woud be looking for a hammer stone.  They abrade and can make a wide variety of points and tools from start to finish including a Clovis!...Then After I speared my Mastadon or Elk..etc...I would have the bones and antler to add to my tool kit.  I would be evolving my kit as I go.  Hunter gatheres are opportunists I try to imagine if they had a walmart back then... Hammerstones would be in the dollar isle a dime a dozen, nice antler and bones a little harder to get..would cost more.. LOL i dont know what the heck I am talking about right now..LOL...Final thought about these so called experts who "replicate" points ... there are so many factors that come into play that most beginner and some inermediate knappers dont even realize, size, shape, flaking, scar pattern, type of stone, bevel, thickness to with ratio, tip, edge and basal preperation, down to the right type of serration..there are a crap load of steps to replicating a "modern" style point.  This all goes on theory and study of artifacts and their interpritations on how each point was made.  Western Clovis points rarely had pressure flaking compared to Eastern Clovis points.  Like us today I think it goes by choice of the knapper, we dont all choose to use only copper or hammerstone,  I know we havent unearthed all the sites and artifacts out there that would continue to write and rewrite history.. I hope my random rambling hasnt went too far off topic.  I like the debate about theory in our addictive and interesting world we all love.  I would love to sit and talk about it anytime with any one of you..I like to say I recreate my inerpritation as modern art, Kudos to those guys who are the elite and sell their works for top $ as real replicas... the flake over grind paper thin, perfect flakes, jigs, saws,and arbors, almost production line like.  DC Waldorf said he cant stand the use of copper tools.  I use both, depending on stone and if its rare or expensive  I dont want to risk making a mistake I use copper, I definatley get more praise when I use all ABO tools.  All I know is if native tribe were around today like back then and chose to use stone as their main tool source would they use copper ???  I am working diligently to one day becoming an elite :o  I will before you know it have my rock saw, kiln, and dump truck full of rocks...I have everything else.  So what is ethical or unethical about any of this?  Who started using plumbing equipment, how did the consept happen?  So many questions..Im going now..I am thinking way too much about this..Good day!

R. Hill
« Last Edit: April 30, 2013, 04:21:28 am by AncientArcher76 »
Time, dedication, cuts, tons of broken rock, a wife, and perhaps a few girlfriends are some of what it takes in becoming a skilled flint knapper!!!
 
"Ancient Art"  by R. Hill

Offline Hunts with stone

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Re: Flintknapping, Reproducing, Replicating, Ethics, and Copper
« Reply #43 on: April 30, 2013, 08:00:27 am »
Lets not forget that for not the study and work of the experts where would we be in our understanding of Lithic reduction. For the big names like crabtree , DCW to name a few there would be a lot less Enthusiasm for hobbyist. As for copper I only know of two references in prehistory where it's been used or found. Copper is very hard to ARequire.  For those reasons I believe it is not Included in the ABO toolkit. I use both tool kits to. Along with wood. I am by no means very good yet but i plan to learn As much as possible to become the best Knapper I can be Either ABO or modern. So before I get rambling off I'll stop here.

Offline AncientArcher76

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Re: Flintknapping, Reproducing, Replicating, Ethics, and Copper
« Reply #44 on: May 01, 2013, 04:41:49 am »
No Way HUNTSWITHSTONE!!! Its all your fault!!! I know for you I see you use both tool kits, and its yor choice.  Whos to say if you reduced with a hammerstone and pressure flaked with copper that it is unethical or is it a hybrid point?? What blows my mind is those guys who lab and shape their preforms then run some flakes with an antler tine and call themselves ABO rockstars!!!..I think I will stop here as well!

Russ
Time, dedication, cuts, tons of broken rock, a wife, and perhaps a few girlfriends are some of what it takes in becoming a skilled flint knapper!!!
 
"Ancient Art"  by R. Hill