What Is Primitive REALLY ?

[AndrewS]

a long time not here and now I found this intresting thread.
In Europe there is a contest of praehistoric weapons with very simple rules for the bows, the arrows and the string:
Only natural materials are allowed for the stuff. No metals and no plastic.

So you have "primitive" weapons. They don't have to build with "primitive" tools.
A primitive bow can't be as authentic as a original stone age bow thousands of years later.....

In my opinion for a primitive bow you should only use natural materials.  No derived material is really  natural. So metal, fiberglas, carbon and other plastics is nothing for a primitive bow.....
 ...but why you shouldn't use a bandsaw and build a rough selfbow in 10 minutes as Tim Baker (or was it Jim Hamm?) described in the Bowyer's Bible
And I have deep respect if people are building their stuff only with stone - and bonetools.....

[4dog]

dont we all^^^^^ dont we all.

[Badger]

  Several years ago this topic got batted around at paleo planet, they ended up seperating forums. Backed bows, flight bows, scientific discussion. The site really lost traffic after that and a lot of its character. I feel like if the bow is natural materials go for it. We all have slightly different reasons for being here. I like to build wood bows, mostly with hand tools but I also use bandsaws when I feel like it. I enjoy a technical discussion or debate now and then. Mostly I just like to build and shoot any kind of wood bow I can dream of making. Someguys are experts on finishes, some like replicas. No group is any better or any more important or hip than another.

[IdahoMatt]

We'll put badger. 

[iowabow]

I guess my main point was the primitive tools were darn good. Heck I might even be able to make an arrowhead from a flake faster with an antler tip and ulna bone than with copper. A stone axe will send chips flying and is a good tool so who cared if you use a steel axe or not. I think if you have some understanding of the connection it all makes sense. I don't see the "cheating" part of the argument unless you don't understand the connection.
So for example my ABO tools are really good when used correctly and make points rather fast. I think if I made bows only from really good primitive tools I would find the same to be true. Therefore it is my belief that the basic steel tools including your bandsaws does not fundamentally change ones understanding of how to build a primitive bow anymore than using copper to make an arrowhead. The basic fundamentals are the same but the difference is in understanding the primitive tool's capablities/funtionality/limitation to achieve the same goal.

First time I tried to make a point with antler I thought how in the world is this even possible. It was the exact same way I felt when I first picked up a draw knife. I feel very skilled with both now. The ABO learning curve is high because you cant buy the tools you have to make them and they need to be of good quality combine that with learning bow design and tiller and you have a very big project on your hands.

[burchett.donald]

                                                   ( Primitive Archer )
   
   After reading this entire thread and knowing we are all members (family) of this web site and magazine I wonder still how to define Primitive Archer. I love everyone's bows, projects, ideas and knowledge here and to each his own...No fiberglass but use all the epoxy and plastic and metal you want seems to be hypocritical...I don't condemn anyone for his choice...Just still in the dark here so to speak on the definition and how we can explain it? I've told friends I was a primitive archer and they want me to explain. I tell them I use all natural products on bows from hide glue, self nocks, sinew, pitch and wood, but definitely not abo tools. Just can't define primitive archery     Again, to each his own.......

[Oglala Bowyer]

I'd like to add a correction to JW's recent post. The author of this posts name means "brave buffalo".  In addition, I also agree that metal tools were used after the onset of trappers trading with the lakota. Perhaps the same with the other tribes as well. Does that make them less primitive?  I don't think so. Maybe more practical.

[Traxx]

Not to be argumentative,But His "Handle" actually translates to Brave heart Bull.I remember he had a few vids on youtube back when.It actually kinda irks me,when someone uses a internet handle,that is an old family name,and they are NOT of that family.Some people take this whole infatuation with Native people way too far and it becomes Disrespectfull after a while.I know they dont intend it that way,but it is.
If i remember correctly,the OP became older and was posting under his own name,but kind of drifted away,from archery.I think he may have enlisted in the military,but i might be confusing that,with someone else.

[Crogacht]

Well, the way I see it, this is primitive ARCHER... so as long as we're all running round in the nude chasing animals and grunting, then we're pretty much meeting the requirement

... wait, you guys do that too right?

[iowabow]

Well, the way I see it, this is primitive ARCHER... so as long as we're all running round in the nude chasing animals and grunting, then we're pretty much meeting the requirement

... wait, you guys do that too right?

now that's funny

[Traxx]

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!

[DuBois]

Well, the way I see it, this is primitive ARCHER... so as long as we're all running round in the nude chasing animals and grunting, then we're pretty much meeting the requirement

... wait, you guys do that too right?

Does my wife count?

[Crogacht]

Does my wife count?

I hope so, I count mine

[DuBois]

OK, I'll take a shot.

 In this modern industrial and high tech age we are hard pressed to live in a "primitive" way. I can't define primitive but I can tell you that I am a direct connections to it. The changes in my lifetime alone are amazing and I often think "too much."

 And so it was for my parents and grandparents on back to a time beyond the ability of my modern technology to recall or trace. And in my every cell there is that lineage and unconscious trail back through time all the way to the cave; and it still calls me to return even though I have hardly been there.

 The instinct to make a tool with our own hands and then use it to survive has been in us since who knows when and for some, it is still beckoning to step out of this modern chaos to a time of intelligent simplicity and necessity.

 That longing, that beckoning....that is primitive.

[Tom Kurth]

New here, and no, I haven't read this whole thread. Forgive me if I re-cover old ground.

I hear a similar argument in the woodworking community. The one thing that always strikes me is that the development  of tools and the choice of tools is always driven by the need to make a living. When my great-grandfather learned to build houses back in nineteenth-century Germany, I guaran-double-damn-tee you he used the best and most 'modern' tools he had available to him. When I build cabinets today, I could probably manage to build them without electric and pneumatic tools and modern materials (plywood, etc.), but my meager hand-tool skills mean they would not be as well done, and I surely couldn't build them fast enough to put food on the table when competing with someone using contemporary goods. I did not know Great-Grampa, but I have know enough about him to know that he was all about making a living and providing for his family. Now I know there are 'Neanderthal' woodworkers out there who use only 'historical' tools and materials. Some just for the love of the process, but most who do so are trading on the 'hand-made' concept.

What is of concern on this site has little to do with paying the bills except for just a few of us. We are nearly all in it for the love of some aspect of it. For some it's about the challenge of the hunt--doing it with a hand-made weapon makes it all the better. Still others are in it for the love of (pre-)history. Some are romantics seeking a connection with a fading past. Some, no doubt, are Luddites who are threatened by an ever faster moving modern world. For me and, I assume, at least a few others, it's all about the wood--seeing what I can make from a piece of a tree. So, for at least some of us, the choice of tool or method is largely irrelevant.

Within that context, the concept of 'primitive' is bound to be a vague and relative term. Its meaning for one of us is not useful to the next. I haven't spent enough time here to have seen if there are conflicts about who 'is 'authentic' and who is not, but without inclusiveness organizations like this become so narrow as to lose effectiveness. One of the great joys of my life is when I take what I have learned in one arena and apply it in another. Similarly, I learn many things about what is important to me from sources totally unconnected to me or mine. Philosopher Gregory Bateson once said, "The only source of new information is chaos." My point is that if we define 'primitive' too narrowly, we may drive off the next person who can add to the store of knowledge that is the core of websites like this.

Just my two cents.

Best,
Tom