Author Topic: circular and eliptial tiller  (Read 16735 times)

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Offline arachnid

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circular and eliptial tiller
« on: January 28, 2014, 06:31:20 pm »
Hi Guys.

I was researching the other day about tillering a pyramid bow and the concept "circular tiller" kept popping up
(Tim Backer mentions it in TBB Vol.2, concerning board pyramid bows and other guys here and in other forums).
I was wondering if someone can give my some clues to the difference between circular and eliptial tiller.
Pics would be great (if its no much to ask...)

Thanks.
Dor.

Offline adb

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Re: circular and eliptial tiller
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2014, 06:38:15 pm »
Circular tiller... bend thru the handle, yew selfbow ELB. Tiller prescribes an almost perfect circle... bending 'full compass'
« Last Edit: January 28, 2014, 06:44:47 pm by adb »

Offline adb

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Re: circular and eliptial tiller
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2014, 06:40:22 pm »
Victorian style ELB target bow, with just a sniff of a stiff handle and tips. Tiller becoming just slightly elliptical.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2014, 06:45:27 pm by adb »

Offline adb

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Re: circular and eliptial tiller
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2014, 06:41:55 pm »
Pyramid flatbow. Non-bending handle. As round as possible, but without bending thru the handle, tiller becomes slightly elliptical.

Offline adb

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Re: circular and eliptial tiller
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2014, 06:47:13 pm »
I don't have a pic of  really elliptical obvious elliptical tiller, but the handle and tips would be reasonably stiff, prescribing more of an elliptical tiller shape at full draw. All these tiller shapes are correct, and are properly applied to the appropriate design.

I'll search and see if I can find one....

If anyone has a nice elliptical tiller... please post it.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2014, 06:53:06 pm by adb »

Offline adb

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Re: circular and eliptial tiller
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2014, 06:54:40 pm »
Here's a hickory selfbow. A flat bow, with parallel limbs for the first 10" ... about as elliptical as I get.

Offline toomanyknots

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Re: circular and eliptial tiller
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2014, 07:14:32 pm »
Hmm, I'm still kinda confused.... I think I need to see about ten more of your english longbows Adam, to fully understand the difference between full compass and elliptical. And of course this has nothing to do with wanting to drool over more of your sweet elbs... not in the least.....   >:D
"The way of heaven is like the bending of a bow-
 the upper part is pressed down,
 the lower part is raised up,
 the part that has too much is reduced,
 the part that has too little is increased."

- Tao Te Ching, 77, A new translation by Victor H. Mair

Offline mwosborn

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  • Mitch Osborn
Re: circular and eliptial tiller
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2014, 07:25:10 pm »
Not primitive but I like messing with pictures on the computer...same order...as posted above.  You do have to be careful - you can make the shape fit the bow in different ways.  It is just a tool - but sometimes makes it easier to "see".  Look at the shape of the shape I added - more circular or elliptical.

Nice bows BTW!

Mitch
Enjoy the hunt!  Mitch

Offline WillS

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Re: circular and eliptial tiller
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2014, 07:36:25 pm »
Shape regardless, that really shows just how damn good Adam's tillering is!  Holy cow.

Offline mwosborn

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  • Mitch Osborn
Re: circular and eliptial tiller
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2014, 08:28:22 pm »
Yep that is for sure!
Enjoy the hunt!  Mitch

Offline adb

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Re: circular and eliptial tiller
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2014, 09:47:15 pm »
Shape regardless, that really shows just how damn good Adam's tillering is!  Holy cow.

Thanks, Will. Not tryin' ta show off, just tryin' to answer the fellers question with pics, like he asked. It took me years to 'see' tiller properly, and to be able to see the subtle differences.

mikekeswick

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Re: circular and eliptial tiller
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2014, 04:00:35 am »
The simple reason behind using one or the other is that as wood gets thinner it can bend further without taking set.

A flatbow with parallel width limbs for most of it's length has to have some taper somewhere. So the taper is in the thickness.
So the thick bit near the handle can't bend much but as you move along the limb towards the tips the limb is getting thinnerall the time....therefore it can (and should) be bending further as it thins. eg. elliptical tiller. The bit you can adjust with this design is how much of the limbs are the same width. If there is only say 4 inches with the same width out of the fades then that bow should have that first bit of the limb moving less than the straight taper out to the tips (this bit should be circular - no thickness taper). As you extend that parallel section out further then the tiller should become progressively more elliptical.
A pyramid tapered bow however has the majority of it's taper happening with the width. This means that there is very little thickness taper (usually!). So if the limb is staying a constant thickness for it's length then of course each bit of the limb should be bending the same amount   eg. circular tiller

Messing about with and understanding this principle is the key to making good bows in my eyes.

Adb - have you noticed that you get less set,handshock and better performance with an elliptical tiller on your longbows. I certainly have. Only once the weight is up over about 80# do I start deviating from this tiller and start to get the handle working more. If you think about it elb's have a large amount of thickness taper going on.

Offline arachnid

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Re: circular and eliptial tiller
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2014, 04:29:23 am »
Thanks a lot guys!
especially Adam for the great pics (damn it man, I wish I could tiller a bow that good. I have A LOT to learn...)
and Mike for the very good explanation. I think I got the idea. I`ll try it out.

Thanks again guy.
Great people in a great forum!

Dor
Israel

Offline adb

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Re: circular and eliptial tiller
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2014, 09:43:56 am »
The simple reason behind using one or the other is that as wood gets thinner it can bend further without taking set.

A flatbow with parallel width limbs for most of it's length has to have some taper somewhere. So the taper is in the thickness.
So the thick bit near the handle can't bend much but as you move along the limb towards the tips the limb is getting thinnerall the time....therefore it can (and should) be bending further as it thins. eg. elliptical tiller. The bit you can adjust with this design is how much of the limbs are the same width. If there is only say 4 inches with the same width out of the fades then that bow should have that first bit of the limb moving less than the straight taper out to the tips (this bit should be circular - no thickness taper). As you extend that parallel section out further then the tiller should become progressively more elliptical.
A pyramid tapered bow however has the majority of it's taper happening with the width. This means that there is very little thickness taper (usually!). So if the limb is staying a constant thickness for it's length then of course each bit of the limb should be bending the same amount   eg. circular tiller

Messing about with and understanding this principle is the key to making good bows in my eyes.

Adb - have you noticed that you get less set,handshock and better performance with an elliptical tiller on your longbows. I certainly have. Only once the weight is up over about 80# do I start deviating from this tiller and start to get the handle working more. If you think about it elb's have a large amount of thickness taper going on.

Well said.

mike... no, I don't notice an appreciable difference with a more elliptical tiller, as far as set goes. If I do my job well, any bow I tiller will have minimal set, regardless of design. I do notice better performance with stiffer tips, however. Performance to me being a combination of arrow speed and shootability (ie minimal handshock, etc.).

I think ELBs have basically nothing but thickness taper. That being said, I tiller my warbows with a more elliptical design than I used to. They perform better, but I have to be careful they don't take more set, being that the grip and tips are a bit stiff. If I can pull this off with a heavy draw weight warbow, it has amazing cast.

Something I learned long ago: even tapers (either width or thickness) make even bends. If you can keep your tapers smooth and regular and even, the wood will bend evenly for the most part, and final tiller will only require small bits of tweaking.

Just remember... for best results (low set, good performance) the tiller shape should match the design.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2014, 09:54:10 am by adb »

Offline adb

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Re: circular and eliptial tiller
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2014, 09:52:35 am »
Thanks a lot guys!
especially Adam for the great pics (damn it man, I wish I could tiller a bow that good. I have A LOT to learn...)
and Mike for the very good explanation. I think I got the idea. I`ll try it out.

Thanks again guy.
Great people in a great forum!

Dor
Israel


Welcome!