Long Bow Accuracy

[Buck67]

I have read that the English Archer carried an "Arrow Bag" with 24 arrows.  He could probably use those up fairly quickly.  At a battle like Agincourt the archers were known to run out and collect arrows between attacks.  I assume that the Army had spare arrows to distribute but eventually even these would run out.  Here is the question.  The Long Bow allowed accurate long distance shots, but what kind of accuracy would be expected when using a grab bag of odd arrows plucked from various deceased attackers.  My guess is that the first volley was pretty deadly, then the latter volleys were more of a point blank kind of accuracy.  So the long distance accuracy of the Long Bow became a non-factor once a battle warmed up and the point blank penetrating power of the big bows became the primary factor.

Were the Archers trained to use standard arrows provided by the Army or did they provide their own?

[Lucasade]

I've read that the baggage train for the Crecy campaign included quarter of a million arrows. I would assume that in the same way a modern infantryman is not expected to provide his own rifle and bullets they would have been issued with weapons and ammo - they were a professional army being paid by the day. The archers at Agincourt were in a line 800 yards long shooting at a large body of advancing army so accuracy was not that important until the enemy are nearly upon you, at which point as you say it becomes point blank shooting. I also thought they used young lads as runners to get fresh arrows from the rear?

I'm sure one of the experts here will correct me if I've missed something!

[WillS]

From what I understand (this is mainly my own opinion as there's very little factual evidence) the archers didn't carry any arrows during war.  Standard sheaves were created by guild fletchers and arrowsmiths, and became government issue.

At the start of a battle, shaves of arrows would be handed out to archers.  The most likely situation is that all the arrows conformed to a type - a specific, military standard size and length.  The fletchers would make up countless thousands of the same arrow. 

If you take the English Warbow Society / British Longbow Society standard arrow as an example, it's 32" long, around 1/2" to 3/8" diameter, with 7" fletchings whipped with silk.  It was armed with a Type 10 bodkin (simple and fast to make.)

You'd end up with thousands of bags of 24 of these arrows, regardless who was shooting, and what weight bow they were using.  When the sheaf ran out, if there were any more a runner would collect some and the shooting would continue. 

The idea of archers carrying their own arrows is, I believe, more a hunting situation as during warfare there would be carts of arrow bags and arrow boxes provided by the government. 

I also don't think archers would have "run out to collect arrows" between attacks.  Historical battles didn't really work that way, and the two sides wouldn't take a break (especially not during a conflict such as Azincourt) so that the enemy could replenish their stocks of ammunition!  Even if they did all go running out together to "re-load" all the arrows would be the same, so it wouldn't make a difference to accuracy. 

There are all sorts of random myths regarding different arrowheads being used by archers for different approaching targets, but when you factor in the fear, short time frame and chaos it's hard to imagine each archer going through their choice of arrows to find the one that best fits.  It would more likely be a standard head on every single arrow.

Just my uninformed opinion of course - I know there are a couple of pieces of medieval artwork showing archers with arrows in their belts, but I do definitely think that arrows during warfare were provided by the government, not the archer.

[Lucasade]

I assume if you won the battle you got a lot of your arrows back, if you lost you'd be too busy running as far and fast as you can to worry about little details like arrows to shoot from the bow you threw away when you started running...

[DC]

I have no creds to back this but I don't think that accuracy played a big part. When you have 10,000 archers raining 100,000 arrows on 10,000 enemy the only accuracy involved would be getting the range close. It's not like they were picking out the guy in the red hat, they were just aiming at that army over there.

[PatM]

Too many guys have read about spine and arrow weight these days.  Things would have been one size fits all back in the day.
 I'm sure the archers carried one bag of arrows with them, that's just common sense.

[Del the cat]

A question, if you were leaning a platoon or army through enemy territory would you make sure your only weapons cabaple of acting at range were able to be used in case of ambush/surprise attack?
I think the concept of a load of archers marching with nary an arrow between 'em is bizarre.
An army on the march would probably stretch for a good long distance (maybe a mile or more? Especially if marching down a cart track) do you want to be a mile from your arrows? I certainly would want some arrows by my side and my bow in my hand (maybe even braced, only to be unstrung at night).
Of course for a set piece battle the wagon loads of arrows would be there for re-supply, probably by young lads, same as how powder monkeys were used on ship.
Del

[Del the cat]

Too many guys have read about spine and arrow weight these days.  Things would have been one size fits all back in the day.
 I'm sure the archers carried one bag of arrows with them, that's just common sense.

Yeah, with those big bows, the only spine requirement is enough so it doesn't explode . mate of mine had one explode on him, the nock blew out despite the horn reinforcement. He had an impressive bruise on his chest to show for it.
Del

[WillS]

Maybe there were two types.  Perhaps there were guys on the column flanks equipped with lighter bows and a set of arrows.

When you look at the Mary Rose, the bows were mainly stored in chests, as were the arrows.  If they were stored away when the ship sank (which was during conflict) it's likely the bows /arrows were also stored away on marches.  I think it's easy to get romantic and imagine all these archers with their own bows and arrows, but it was government issue stuff.  The bows were kept in waxed cases, the arrows in linen bags tied at both ends.

I'm not aware of any artwork depicting archers at war carrying their own arrows.  There's one that shows huge wicker bags on belts, but it looks ungainly, impracticable and awkward. 

I don't think you'd ever be as much as a mile from the equipment either - lots of supply carts carrying weapons scattered through out the lines.  If each company of archers had its own cart and runners, getting to equipment would be quick and easy.

[Del the cat]

Errr, I don't think they were marching in a two mile column on the Mary Rose.
And the fact that they were in boxes, merely proves the point, they are no good for warfare whilst in a box!
The Mary Rose was engaged with the French at the time it sunk, maybe the bows were to be used on land or elswhere, it doesn't appear they were being actively used onboard ship. Presumably cannon range exceeded bow range, and I wouldn't think bows were that suitable for ship to ship fighting... I dunno.
I quite like your theory of archers on the flanks, but conversely making each man carry and be responsible for his own kit guarantees they are all equipped an ready for action.
Del

[WillS]

Good point!

I dunno enough about the details of medieval warfare to know, so I can only assume stuff, but I don't think they'd be marching expecting ambush etc.  I think on the scale of the England/France campaign it was primarily pitched battles? 

[Del the cat]

Indeed I agree they appear to be primarily set piece battles, but there would doubtless be the odd squirmish (as Sarah Palin would say ) e.g advance parties sent ahead to check fords, villages, progress of those dastardly English etc. Dunno if the French went in for hit and run tactics, I have read that we did... maybe they were too much into their knights and chivalry. If I'd been them I have used the crossbows more wisely.
Del

[DC]

Maybe the bows that were packed away were spares. Any that were on deck or in use would have floated away when the ship sank.

[PatM]

That's what I think.

[WillS]

Interesting idea, although the reason so many items and artefacts were found on the ship, and the reason almost the entire crew died, is because there was netting covering the entire deck.  It was designed to stop attackers boarding the ship, but sadly ended up causing all the casualties.  That's why everything stayed on the ship, despite it sinking - they couldn't float away.

I think it's important to remember that the Mary Rose was sailing out into open conflict.  It wasn't going to be landing anywhere, until it was victorious and returned home, or sank.  It sank partly because it had too many men onboard in the first place.  Weapons and equipment would have been kept to the bare minimum they needed - why carry heavy solid wooden boxes of expensive weaponry and ammunition if it wasn't going to be used in that particular attack?  Doesn't make any sense.  As far as I'm concerned everything on that ship was there to be used. 

We still don't quite know how the bows were issued to archers, but I firmly believe in the theory that the reoccurring "bowyers" marks you can see on most of the MR bows actually relate somehow to the class or draw weight of the bow.  It's very simple to open a crate of warbows, find one that matches your draw weight, and take it out to use it.  Otherwise we have to expect that each individual archer went on board with their own bow (which doesn't compute, because a huge amount of the bows have identical marks, so why would so many archers be carrying individual bows that share the same markings?) and spend their time below decks trying to manoeuvre a 7ft warbow despite not being able to fully stand up themselves. 

IMO it's far more likely that archers on the Mary Rose and (as is the point of this discussion) during the HYW campaigns would simply open a case of government issued bows, find one that suited him and use it.  Just like the arrows.

I'm basing ALL of that on personal opinion, not historical evidence ('cos we don't have any!) I just think it makes more sense.  To me, anyway.