Mary Rose 'battle arrows'

[HoorayHorace]

Can anyone give me some insight on the arrows found on the Mary Rose? I'm sure this is the right section for this 

I understand there was a law passed which required the arrows had be shot a certain distance, like 250 yards?

 What was the size and weight of the average arrow, and what bow would bee needed to get 250 yards on flat ground in terms of longbow draw weight?

 

[occupant]

It wasn't a spec that the arrows were made, an adult archer had to shoot that far. If I remember correctly, the estimated weight of the bows recovered off the Mary Rose were 80# to 150# with 120# covering the majority. The majority of the arrow shafts were poplar, about 1/2" at the point tapered to 3/8 at the nock. Several books by Hugh D. H. Soar are alot more informative than what I can ever type on here.

[WillS]

This is about as good a description and specification on the MR arrow as you'll get:

http://www.theenglishwarbowsociety.com/tudor-livery-arrow.html

Obviously they varied a fair bit, but the ewbs Livery is a very close approximation to the "average" type. 

As a quick sidenote, the estimation of the bow weights has gone up recently.  It's now believed that the lowest weight of the MR bows is around 110lbs, with the average being about 150lbs or 160lbs.  The really big ones such as MR81A 1607 look to be well into the 180lb range, and the true replicas of these have been around that weight as well.  In fact Alistair Aston made a stunning replica of 1607 but slightly longer and had it been the same length (77") as the original bow, it would have been around 196lbs at 32".

[HoorayHorace]

Very interesting read? An arrow of that length would require a very long draw 

Any news of whether the supposed medieval arrow was tested by that Company?

[PatM]

It would be interesting to know the weight difference between an Aspen shaft and an Oak or Ash shaft of the same dimensions.

[occupant]

I am making tapered 1/2 inch shafts from poplar dowel and most of them after sanding and steel wool spine around 130, perfect for the bow I just made. I did try a couple oak dowels and the spine was to high unless I made the whole thing about 7/16 straight shaft.

[WillS]

Pat I can weight some of my bare shafts if you want, I have ash, birch and "poplar" all hand-tapered from half inch to 3/8". 

Only trouble is getting hold of actual Aspen these days - here in the UK we tend to buy "Poplar" which is actually imported Tulipwood, not a species of Populus.  It's incredibly similar to true Poplar or "Aspen" but has a fractionally higher density.  I don't think Aspen is available in the UK any more, although most people buying Poplar arrow shafts have no idea that it's actually Tulipwood.

[WillS]

All shafts 34" long, Bobtailed (straight taper, not torpedo) from 12.7mm (half inch) to 10mm (3/8")

Ash - 67g
Birch - 76g
"Poplar" - 60g

A finished arrow is about 10grams heavier, including head and fletchings.  The wood removed when cutting the horn insert is equivalent to the horn being placed.  Obviously there's a wide range of different head weights, but if we're talking about Tudor arrows (Livery arrows) then the head is about 8 or 9 grams. 

You do get (obviously) a range of weights within the same wood species, but Birch is considered quite a bit heavier than the other two, and as a result is usually only used for the very heavy arrows such as the 1/4lb plate-cutter arrows, while Ash is used commonly for 3/8" parallel shafts to make the EWBS/BLBS Standard arrow, and Poplar (or Aspen) is used for the Tudor arrows, as the majority (by a long way) of arrows found on the MR were made from Poplar.  It can take the half inch diameter without being overly heavy.

An arrow of that length would require a very long draw

The 32" draw is standard for medieval archery - it's a very different technique and approach to hunting or target archery, and requires the archer to be shooting "in the bow" as it were - this means the natural anchor isn't near the face but right back by the collar bone of the string-hand side.  Most people can get 32" using the correct technique, but as the bow weights increase the compressive forces shorten the draw somewhat. 

[PatM]

I've often pointed out the true nature of "poplar" that is commonly  found commercially. Didn't realise that Tulip tree was also the substitute over there.
 I'm surprised real poplar is that hard to source.
  It seems to grow everywhere.
 I have made arrows from the 7/16 Tulip tree dowels and found them incredibly light and flimsy at that diameter even though they had a bulky feel to them.
 I prefer slimmer denser woods.

[HoorayHorace]

To get on of those shafts 250 yards, you'd need one big bow.

[Frank Thornton]

Interesting fact there WillS...about a re-think on the MR draw weights. Any references for that?
Cheers Mate.

[WillS]

Hey Frank! No references, just something Jaro was saying at the Dorset shoot, and a conversation on Facebook a few months back between Dave and Jaro.  They seem to think 110 is about right for the smallest bows, considering the quality of the yew and the replicas that they're making.

Alistair's replica of 1607 is on here somewhere however, as is Steve's I think.  Both came out between 160 and 180 at a longer length than the actual MR bow, so factoring in the piking and you end up well over 180. 

[Del the cat]

There is plenty of nonsense spoken and written about the MR arrows.
I'll give some figures direct from "Weapons of Warre"
Most of the arrows were of Poplar, followed by Birch.
Mean total length of arrows from 3 chests
chest 81A2582 788.8 mm (~31")      (you can be 95% confident that any arrow would fall between 784.5 and 793.1mm)
chest 81A2398 800.8mm  (~31.75") ( 95% confidence... 795.6 - 806.0)
chest 82A1761 759.6mm  (~30")      (95% confidencs ... 751.8 - 767.4)

Most were in the range 725 to 850mm long (28.5 -33.5)

Total length varies from less about 670mm to 875mm (interpreted conservatively from graph)
E.G approx  26.5" to 34.5"
This dispels the myth that everyone was shooting heavy 32" Ash arrows!
From the bows I've made I'd agree they were 100# plus, and probably nearer 150# on average.
Of course just like the arrows there would be a big variation and also a variation in how far they were drawn. E.G a 130# @ 32"  is only about 110# at 28"
BTW. Anyone suggesting that they couldn't draw 100# plus bows is simply an idiot. If a 60+ year old with a desk job can pull 100# (with a week or two practice) I'm sure they could manage it!
Del

[WillS]

Here's a quick still image from one of Mark's DVDs of the original Portchester Castle Tudor head, and his own replica.  Seems that these are the most likely type of head to have been fitted to the arrows. 

[HoorayHorace]

There is some super interesting information posted here, for which I am very grateful. 

@ DTC, are those lengths for the full arrow, or back of nock to shoulder?

An arrow of 31 inches from back of nock to shoulder would allow for a draw length of 29-30, considering some of the arrow would be resting on the knuckle, about an inch or so? 

A very long draw

Off topic here slightly, but did the MR bows have the arrow pass at the centre, or 1 inch above?