Author Topic: Winged Bannerstones and the Bi-Lobed Arrow Motif  (Read 27860 times)

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Offline JackCrafty

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Re: Winged Bannerstones and the Bi-Lobed Arrow Motif
« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2015, 12:06:25 am »
Yeah, I noticed that there are different numbers on the Wikipedia article as well.  I don't know who's numbers are correct or what they are looking at.

How many total burials did Webb report?  With and without atlatl components?  And how many projectile points?
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Offline Zuma

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Re: Winged Bannerstones and the Bi-Lobed Arrow Motif
« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2015, 02:25:22 am »
I am glad to see numbers and locations being posted.
I am not surprised about the nature of the tally and the pure pandemonium
created by the folks in this dubious profession.
In the Bannerstone Discussion thread I posted my personal finds of drilled stone.
In my opinion, from my 6.000 plus piece artifact collection, rare is-- one bola stone, one bell pestle,  two  Paleo points, three large cylindrical pestles, four gorgets, five axes, six celts, and at least, eight bannerstones. My friends personal found bannerstones are many. All found in village sites or rockshelters in western NJ and eastern PA. Rare needs to be quantified somehow.
No matter, the master of these stones were the dudes that drilled them.. This aspect can not be ignored.
Zuma :D
If you are a good detective the past is at your feet. The future belongs to Faith.

Offline swamp monkey

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Re: Winged Bannerstones and the Bi-Lobed Arrow Motif
« Reply #32 on: January 06, 2015, 08:44:58 pm »
Yeah, I noticed that there are different numbers on the Wikipedia article as well.  I don't know who's numbers are correct or what they are looking at.

How many total burials did Webb report?  With and without atlatl components?  And how many projectile points?

From the book Atlatls and Bannerstones: Excavations at Indian Knoll by William Webb, 1946.  It looks like he had 880 burials.  I have attached a page that has some break down of the burials. 

Stats
•   There were 101 stone atlatl weights found at this site. 
•   26 stone bannerstones found in burials
•   75 stone bannerstones found in general excavation
•   76 antler atlatl hooks were found
•   42 atlatl handles made of antler found
•   6 segmented shell atlatl weights found

•   Of the stone weights 44 were limestone, 1 marble, 6 sandstone, 9 igneous, 7 slate and 9 quartzite.
•   31 of the stones were found along with antler atlatl hooks.

In the burials  less than 4% of them have a stone or shell atlatl weight.  So they didn't go into the grave with everyone. 

I will have to do some reading to see about bar weights.  he may or may not have tabulated that information.  Work and family life is cranking back up so i may be a little while before I can run that down. 

Side note:  I also uncovered something that makes me rethink things a bit.  Antler atlatl hooks, antler handles, stone bannerstones, and atlatl hooks associated with shell weights are associated with both male and female burials.  That is not what I would have expected.   Pondering required.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2015, 10:21:44 pm by swamp monkey »

Offline JackCrafty

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Re: Winged Bannerstones and the Bi-Lobed Arrow Motif
« Reply #33 on: January 06, 2015, 09:28:35 pm »
If the atlatl items are associated with male AND female burials, it would be interesting to see how many are associated ONLY with females.  And it looks like some of them were buried together in the same grave.  The percentages for each gender (and together) would be useful info.

It's also very interesting to see a 3 to 1 ratio in favor of bannerstones NOT being buried with people.

Do you know how many were "winged" type bannerstones, if any?
« Last Edit: January 06, 2015, 09:33:44 pm by jackcrafty »
Any critter tastes good with enough butter on it.

Patrick Blank
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Youtube: JackCrafty, Allergic Hobbit, Patrick Blank

Where's Rock? Public Waterways, Road Cuts, Landscape Supply, Knap-Ins.
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Offline Zuma

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Re: Winged Bannerstones and the Bi-Lobed Arrow Motif
« Reply #34 on: January 06, 2015, 11:54:21 pm »
 :) ;) :D ;D 8)  Good stuff guys. I like this approach.
 I wish I could find something to contribute.
Zuma
If you are a good detective the past is at your feet. The future belongs to Faith.

Offline JackCrafty

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Re: Winged Bannerstones and the Bi-Lobed Arrow Motif
« Reply #35 on: January 07, 2015, 09:45:30 am »
I'm going to paste this report title here so I don't loose it.  I'll try to find a copy.

University of Kentucky Reports in Anthropology and Archaeology Vol. IV, No. 3, part 1.

Link to amazon books by William S. Webb:

---http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_book_1?ie=UTF8&field-author=William+S.+Webb&search-alias=books&text=William+S.+Webb&sort=relevancerank
« Last Edit: January 07, 2015, 09:56:57 am by jackcrafty »
Any critter tastes good with enough butter on it.

Patrick Blank
Midland, Texas
Youtube: JackCrafty, Allergic Hobbit, Patrick Blank

Where's Rock? Public Waterways, Road Cuts, Landscape Supply, Knap-Ins.
How to Cook It?  200° for 24hrs then 275° to 500° for 4hrs (depending on type), Cool for 12hr

JacksonCash

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Re: Winged Bannerstones and the Bi-Lobed Arrow Motif
« Reply #36 on: January 07, 2015, 05:27:33 pm »
My wife might have an in to get some of these papers - she's working on her masters now, looking at neolithic beads, but she may be able to access some of these, or perhaps have some contacts to put you guys on the right trail. I'll ask her when I get home tonight and let you know.

Offline swamp monkey

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Re: Winged Bannerstones and the Bi-Lobed Arrow Motif
« Reply #37 on: January 07, 2015, 07:55:55 pm »
If the atlatl items are associated with male AND female burials, it would be interesting to see how many are associated ONLY with females.  And it looks like some of them were buried together in the same grave.  The percentages for each gender (and together) would be useful info.

It's also very interesting to see a 3 to 1 ratio in favor of bannerstones NOT being buried with people.

Do you know how many were "winged" type bannerstones, if any?

C.B. Moore 1915 Indian Knoll Excavation: Moore examined 298 graves and found 32 of them had atlatl parts in them.  He didn’t however, call them atlatl parts.  He called them “net spacers” or "sizers" and “needles”.   One of them was a segmented shell “spacer”.   Webb produced a table with these grave/ atlatl finds and I have provided it below.  Webb included this table on page 321 of his report entitled Atlatls and Bannerstones:  Excavations at Indian Knoll Kentucky, 1946 as part of his report.
The atlatl parts were reported as 5 with adult males, 3 with adult females, 4 with adults (gender ?) 7 with children and 13 with adults where age and gender was undetermined. 
5 of the bannerstones and antler hooks were directly aligned. 
I saw a note in Webb’s publication that said Moore sent 66 skeletons and associated grave goods to the National Museum.  He didn’t send the whole dig or all that he found.     I wonder if this was the source of the differing numbers of bannerstones?  It will take some more obscure reading to get to the bottom of that one.

W.S. Webb 1940s Indian Knoll Excavation:  Later in the 1940s as part of the WPA program Webb provided a report on 880 additional burials on the Indian Knoll site.  He reported 44 burials with associated atlatl parts.  Webb summarized Moore’s’ findings in a table I have scanned and provided below.  He included this table on page 325 & 326 of his report entitled Atlatls and Bannerstones:  Excavations at Indian Knoll Kentucky, which is where I got the numbers previously.
 I have scanned two pages from that report that summarizes information associated with those 44 burials. 

So for the Indian Knoll site: if you include Moore’s 1915 report and Webb’s 1946 report there were 1178 graves examined, and a total of 76 graves with atlatls buried with them.  That is roughly 6% of the burials had atlatls in some form or fashion. 
I also found it interesting that 275 of the 880 burials documented in Webb’s work, had any non-decomposed grave goods (shell, copper, bone, antler, stone).  I am certain that less decay resistant materials (wood, fabric, cordage, etc.) were also placed in the graves and just succumb to the elements. 

On Webb’s work roughly ¼ of the graves with atlatls were with females.  The rest were male. 
For Moore’s work only 8 of the 32 had gender determination.  3 female and 5 male. 
Other fun facts:
Webb found lots of projectile points.  Most were in general excavation with smaller amounts found in burials. 
•   Stemmed points (736 general  exc./ 23 in burial)
•   Corner notched  1917/28
•   Side notched  2913/4
•   Short stemmed  27/3
•   Broken points  1777/7

Another fun fact, I saw a few whelk shell gorgets listed in the finds.  That was a surprise too.  Sad part is I read this publication several years back but didn’t pick up on that.  This whole general discussion has caused me to read more closely and it was been immensely rewarding. 
« Last Edit: January 07, 2015, 10:17:06 pm by swamp monkey »

Offline JackCrafty

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Re: Winged Bannerstones and the Bi-Lobed Arrow Motif
« Reply #38 on: January 07, 2015, 09:27:22 pm »
Very interesting to see that some of the atlatl weights were intentionally broken.  I wonder how they determined that.
Any critter tastes good with enough butter on it.

Patrick Blank
Midland, Texas
Youtube: JackCrafty, Allergic Hobbit, Patrick Blank

Where's Rock? Public Waterways, Road Cuts, Landscape Supply, Knap-Ins.
How to Cook It?  200° for 24hrs then 275° to 500° for 4hrs (depending on type), Cool for 12hr

Offline swamp monkey

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Re: Winged Bannerstones and the Bi-Lobed Arrow Motif
« Reply #39 on: January 07, 2015, 10:13:50 pm »
Very interesting to see that some of the atlatl weights were intentionally broken.  I wonder how they determined that.

 I wondered that too.  I wondered if the stones were too deep for freeze/ thaw effects.  i could see water freezing in the drilled section, expanding and bursting the stone apart.  But if they were too deep to freeze what else would cause the damage?

Offline JackCrafty

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Re: Winged Bannerstones and the Bi-Lobed Arrow Motif
« Reply #40 on: January 08, 2015, 12:13:53 pm »
They may be too deep now, but when they were first buried, some graves were very shallow.  I think I read that some bodies were placed on the ground and then covered with burned stones and midden debris.
Any critter tastes good with enough butter on it.

Patrick Blank
Midland, Texas
Youtube: JackCrafty, Allergic Hobbit, Patrick Blank

Where's Rock? Public Waterways, Road Cuts, Landscape Supply, Knap-Ins.
How to Cook It?  200° for 24hrs then 275° to 500° for 4hrs (depending on type), Cool for 12hr

Offline JackCrafty

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Re: Winged Bannerstones and the Bi-Lobed Arrow Motif
« Reply #41 on: January 08, 2015, 12:35:02 pm »
I found an atlatl hunting "chart" that lists the responses from various states on hunting with an atlatl.  There's no "Atlatl" section so I'll post it here.  Don't know the year this was made, though.

---http://www.thudscave.com/petroglyphs/atlatlstatelaws.htm
Any critter tastes good with enough butter on it.

Patrick Blank
Midland, Texas
Youtube: JackCrafty, Allergic Hobbit, Patrick Blank

Where's Rock? Public Waterways, Road Cuts, Landscape Supply, Knap-Ins.
How to Cook It?  200° for 24hrs then 275° to 500° for 4hrs (depending on type), Cool for 12hr

Offline caveman2533

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Re: Winged Bannerstones and the Bi-Lobed Arrow Motif
« Reply #42 on: January 08, 2015, 01:33:36 pm »
What was the population estimate for the Indian Knoll site and for how long? This would give some insight as to how common they were among the population.

Offline JackCrafty

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Re: Winged Bannerstones and the Bi-Lobed Arrow Motif
« Reply #43 on: January 08, 2015, 02:08:03 pm »
The average age of excavated materials is 5302 years (BP, I assume) according to The reassessment of the age and sex of the Indian Knoll skeletal population: Demographic and methodological aspects by Johnston & Snow.

I'll look for the total population estimate and duration of occupation pertaining to the burials.


---http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.1330190304/abstract;jsessionid=EF601BC2B7F3DAC913FDBF0D05737535.f01t03
Any critter tastes good with enough butter on it.

Patrick Blank
Midland, Texas
Youtube: JackCrafty, Allergic Hobbit, Patrick Blank

Where's Rock? Public Waterways, Road Cuts, Landscape Supply, Knap-Ins.
How to Cook It?  200° for 24hrs then 275° to 500° for 4hrs (depending on type), Cool for 12hr

Offline JackCrafty

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Re: Winged Bannerstones and the Bi-Lobed Arrow Motif
« Reply #44 on: January 08, 2015, 02:28:35 pm »
OK, I skimmed though a copy of Mortuary Behavior and Social Organization at Indian Knoll and Dickson Mounds by Nan. A. Rothschild.  (I opened an account at JSTOR)

Basically, the entire population number is considered a "missing" component of the research. But it is assumed that Indian Knoll contains enough burials to provide the correct percentages of the population as a whole.  In other words, the percentages of males, females, and children are the same for the buried people as they were for the entire population.  And that includes average ages also, which was about 18 or 19 years old by one account (can't remember).

Any critter tastes good with enough butter on it.

Patrick Blank
Midland, Texas
Youtube: JackCrafty, Allergic Hobbit, Patrick Blank

Where's Rock? Public Waterways, Road Cuts, Landscape Supply, Knap-Ins.
How to Cook It?  200° for 24hrs then 275° to 500° for 4hrs (depending on type), Cool for 12hr