Author Topic: Photos: Multi-tech obsidian reduction sequence  (Read 8806 times)

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AncientTech

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Photos: Multi-tech obsidian reduction sequence
« on: June 07, 2015, 12:53:06 am »
Hard Hammer percussion showing hard hammer flake scars - quartzite hammerstone







One should not be afraid of hard hammerstone reduction on obsidian.  It is a matter of sifting through historical records, and sorting out the methods.  Actual hammerstone methods are probably precursors to "hard hammer versus soft hammer".

Hard hammer reduction followed by tine removal:







Comparing hard hammer reduction, on obsidian, to tine removal on obsidian:



Hard hammer flake is heavily rippled.  Tine based flake is smooth, but shows radial cracking.  Some claim to be able to make any type of flake, with any type of tool.  But, the attributes of this process are quite specific to the process.   







Subsequent tine removals:









Pen shows flake termination:



Finger shows flake termination:



Further thinning:







































Long flake removal is now followed by short flake removal, which actually composes a duality:



Susbequent to short flake removal:



The point is not yet finished.  But, this shows a few things.

-  No outrepasse shots were taken, here.  Yet, in one stage of work, the same technology that is used to create outrepasse was used to create non-outrepasse, over-reaching thinning flakes. 

So, I can show that tine-based outrepasse flaking is ONE FACET of a more comprehensive flaking technology.  And, that means that even if outrepasse ceases to exist, it does not mean that the outrepasse technology does not exist.  Nor, does it mean that the culture that brought the outrepasse flaking technology does not exist.  It simply means that outrepasse was not created, just as I did not create it in this instance. 

-  No one can positively say that the flaking that the Clovis people used to create outrepasse, during the initial colonization of the Americas, did not continue into the historic era. 

I have shown that a single technology, recorded during the historic era, is useful for generating several types of flakes, including outré passé, and coast to coast, flaking.  This is why a person has to understand the technology behind the effect.  Otherwise, the blindness will continue.  Trying to positively identify the attributes of the flaking, while failing to recognize the technologies behind the flaking, is a matter of blindness.  To get past the blindness one has to get to the technologies that were used to make the flaking, and let the technologies be the starting point - not flakes, flake scars, and finished points. 

- In the medium of obsidian, the tine removals consistently show different attributes than hammerstone removals, and different than hypothetical "baton" removals. 

So, as far as the attributes of the tine removals goes, there should be no mystery in looking at debitage, and stages, in prehistoric reduction.  If the choice is between hammerstone, tine removal, baton, pressure, and cylinder removal, the tine removals should be self evident.  The baton removals will probably be ruled out, especially since baton flaking appears to have been created around 1930, in England.  Pressure removals are predictably small.  And, hammerstone removals appear to be hammerstone removals, especially in obsidian.  This medium - obsidian - is good for such a test, regarding this subject.  And, it is a good medium in which one can look specifically for evidence of tine removals, whether they be outrepasse, coast to coast, or just ordinary flaking. 

I hope that someone has enjoyed this flintknapping display that has been banned, or almost banned, on at least three other forums.  If the point does not break, photos of the finished point will ensue.  Have a nice day.         

Offline bubby

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Re: Photos: Multi-tech obsidian reduction sequence
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2015, 01:05:42 am »
I'd like to see how you use the antler tine as compared to a pic with the tine in it , your post doesn't explain your technique
failure is an option, everyone fails, it's how you handle it that matters.
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AncientTech

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Re: Photos: Multi-tech obsidian reduction sequence
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2015, 08:51:06 pm »
That is a good idea Bubby.  You should ask the guys on Paleoplanet to host a discussion about it.  I might even participate.  Lol.

AncientTech

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Re: Photos: Multi-tech obsidian reduction sequence
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2015, 08:53:50 pm »
The late Tony Baker used to say something like, "The tool used to make the flake is not important.  What is important is how the flake forms."  -  At least, that seems to have been his opinion.

So, here is a flake that has been formed.  Can you see the coast to coast flake hiding in there?



That is one bad looking flake in there!



Wow!  It is actually longer than the flute:



Here is the back side of a coast to coast flake.  I was just about a half a variable short of a full blown outré passé - but that would have removed the edge, at a less than optimal spot.  That is why you have to check out my other outrepasse flakes, to see where it can be really optimal, in terms of the opposite edge.



Here is a bird's eye view.  Look at that spectacularly tiny initiation!  That is why it doesn't matter what tool you use, not even in indentations (cough cough cough):



Now, if you don't believe that flutes could be obliterated by invasive flake scars, check this out!





That flute obliteration just goes to show why you can always rely upon "finished points", to understand lithics!

Okay, here are all of my flaking tools that I have to lug around in a hefty ten gallon bucket.  It actually causes blowouts on my two ton dually!  Warning:  Don't faint!



Since we know from Baker that the tool does not matter, then here is something that might just work, if you like certain kinds of flaking.  First, make sure that you carefully combine two forces, while introducing a third force.  And, make sure that while you introduce a third force, you do it in such a way that creates a fourth force.  Then, under the right conditions, you can use these four forces to control the path of the flake.  Thus, you can create some of the flakes that are shown here, that have paths that are multi-directional.  But, if you don't think that the tool matters, you can always try with tools that cannot reach in indentations, and that are not actually going to reach near the centerline, in edge areas that are not thin.  (Do I got a triple negative in there?)
« Last Edit: June 11, 2015, 01:55:04 pm by AncientTech »

Offline mullet

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Re: Photos: Multi-tech obsidian reduction sequence
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2015, 09:04:15 pm »
I'd like to see how you use the antler tine as compared to a pic with the tine in it , your post doesn't explain your technique

AT, do you ever answer a question? It seems like all you do is rambble on like you are in a conversation with yourself.

That is a good idea Bubby.  You should ask the guys on Paleoplanet to host a discussion about it.  I might even participate.  Lol.
And, if you continue to try and pull this site into your squabble with PaleoPlanet you will not last long on this site. I'm seeing why you got the cold shoulder at PP.
Lakeland, Florida
 If you have to pull the trigger, is it really archery?

Offline bubby

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Re: Photos: Multi-tech obsidian reduction sequence
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2015, 09:21:18 pm »
A. T., i could give a rats arse about paleo planet, all that i did was make a simple request, and not only did you not answer my simple question, you preceded to talk down to us like we were primates with a learning disorder. We there's a saying ," I'd rather be pissed off than pissed on" and you went and acomplished both, congrats ::)
failure is an option, everyone fails, it's how you handle it that matters.
The few the proud the 27🏹

Offline caveman2533

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Re: Photos: Multi-tech obsidian reduction sequence
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2015, 10:13:50 pm »
A. T., i could give a rats arse about paleo planet, ayou preceded to talk down to us like we were primates with a learning disorder. ::)
I am with Bubby.

Ben, Why do you need Paleoplanet! Here is a platform for you to discuss it with people who were, at least, willing.  I hate to say it but this is his MO. Stir up trouble, never have the conversation he says he so desperately wants.  This is why he is banned from three other site. Stir up mud and then run. It will not get better.

AncientTech

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Re: Photos: Multi-tech obsidian reduction sequence
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2015, 01:58:30 pm »
Okay, here is a closer shot of the "finished point".  It is a nice blend of fluting, coast to coast flaking, plus invasive scars, which do a great deal to hide some facets of technological application.



P.S.  Here is a little secret.  If you ever hear abo replicators complaining about not getting the edges that they like by pressure flaking, just mention that they could avoid pressure flaking all together, while getting better edges.  Pressure flakes frequently create plane-like flakes, that sometimes hinge.  In some cases - depending on the contour of the surface of the point - a knapper might not want plane like flakes, that hinge.  This is especially noticeable in obsidian.  So, you may want to go for something that can curve over the contour somewhat, while fully terminating.  Just a thought.   
« Last Edit: June 11, 2015, 02:11:15 pm by AncientTech »

Offline soy

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Re: Photos: Multi-tech obsidian reduction sequence
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2015, 02:12:04 pm »
That's cool...a video with narration on the technique would be awesome...and no I don't want a discussion about it on pp , I would really like to see it live action if possible ;)
Is this bow making a sickness? or the cure...

Offline caveman2533

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Re: Photos: Multi-tech obsidian reduction sequence
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2015, 02:36:59 pm »
I have always seemed to get better edges with antler pressure flaker than not. Edges come of crisp and sharp.

Offline paulsemp

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Re: Photos: Multi-tech obsidian reduction sequence
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2015, 03:08:41 pm »
don't know much if anything about knapping but I'm always interested in reading and seeing pics of stuff you guys do. so I cannot comment intellectually about what's being talked about here but I certainly want to know how this guy is able to post 30 pictures in 1 post.

Stringman

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Re: Photos: Multi-tech obsidian reduction sequence
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2015, 04:19:51 pm »
(Use photobucket, then copy/paste the img)

Offline son of massey

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Re: Photos: Multi-tech obsidian reduction sequence
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2015, 01:30:55 pm »
I don't have too big an issue with esoteric 'prove it can be done' posts, although I do much prefer the method to be included. But this is neither a how-to nor a buildalong. When people are asking for a 'how to' for your methodology they do not mean to post the same academic material into the how to forum. Again, I tend to buy that you are making arguments about can it be done vs how it can be done, but putting it here in response to requests for a walkthrough seems like it is intentionally not answering to the question.

SOM