Author Topic: Condors and lead  (Read 20989 times)

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Offline DC

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Re: Condors and lead
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2015, 10:19:43 pm »
When I was looking at stuff I was sure I saw something about a .22 found in a condors crop but I can't find it now. Maybe I imagined it. I can't remember now what my search criteria was. There are so many sites pro and con and some pro masquerading as con and vice versa. I'll keep looking.

Offline DC

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Re: Condors and lead
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2015, 10:31:45 pm »
Found it! Let me check. Oh they sell t-shirts. Do a search on "ventana wildlife condors and lead" I haven't read the whole thing yet. It's just one bird, it doesn't prove anything except that one condor ate a bullet.

Offline Zuma

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Re: Condors and lead
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2015, 09:59:47 am »
Good memory DC

Mods please remove the link if you see something commercial.
I don't but I would rather be safe than sorry.
I'm thinking a non profit org.

I found the link. It's about California Condors so
really not the same bird ppulation.
Nevertheless good info. Not to sure if the bullet
was in the stomach or crop. perhaps some of you
folks will know. Also there is a photo of the .22 bullet.
It looks totally intact, in other words I wonder if enough
of the lead could have been absorbed into the blood
stream to cause death??
I include a couple lines from the link I thought interesting.

California Condors and Lead Poisoning - Ventana Wildlife Society
www.ventanaws.org/species_condors_lead/ - Similar

Cause of death, through necropsy, was determined to be lead toxicosis. A radiograph showed multiple metal fragments and a bullet-shaped object in the digestive tract (Figure 2). The object was removed and determined to be a .22 caliber lead bullet (Figure 3). 

Figure 3. .22 caliber lead bullet recovered from condor #318. Photo by Zeka Kuspa

We thank the many hunters who participated in our free non-lead ammunition program. We raised more than $50,000 in 2012 to support local hunters making the switch through this program, and we hope to raise more funds to continue in 2013. We greatly appreciate the 221 hunters who completed our online survey. For a summary report of the 2012 free non-lead ammunition program, including results of the survey, click here.

Zuma
« Last Edit: November 08, 2015, 10:14:32 am by Zuma »
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Offline JackCrafty

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Re: Condors and lead
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2015, 10:41:51 am »
I think I saw that show recently.  Discovery channel I think?  Anyway, one of the condors they released into the wild turned up dead because it ate a quarter (coin) that blocked its intestine.  That says it all right there.
 
The idea that lead poisoning kills condors is one that sounds plausible and can get you a big grant so you can "study" the problem.  If you spin it in a way that makes the problem a "subtle menace" and not an obvious problem (like human litter) then it attracts intellectual types and their money and agendas.

Just follow the money.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2015, 09:40:28 pm by JackCrafty »
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Offline DC

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Re: Condors and lead
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2015, 12:34:13 pm »
I thought we were talking about California Condors ??? ???

Offline Zuma

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Re: Condors and lead
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2015, 01:56:34 pm »
Yes Jack it is a high dollar industry but I think the
idea and attempts are somewhat noble.
I guess I question the notion of these creatures
 supposedly being released back into the wild.
I just wonder if the world has just become to small
for the big Condor, big bears, elephants, big cats
etc. I see their survival in the wild as mostly wishful
 thinking. I hope I am totally incorrect. I have seen
miraculous strides in turkeys,eagles,osprey,and all
the hawks and so many other birds since the ban of DDT.
A lot having to do with reintroduction too
   
DC it's in my first post. The Grand Canyon area.
But I really don't think it makes a great difference.
Perhaps a little different climate and population.
Other than that I might assume the programs and
problems are similar.
Zuma
If you are a good detective the past is at your feet. The future belongs to Faith.

Offline JW_Halverson

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Re: Condors and lead
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2015, 03:25:37 pm »
(I know it's long, but I wanted to cover some ground)

If you take into account something like over 10,000 papers written on lead poisoning in raptors, less than 50 have disputed lead toxicity, and several of those were bought and paid for by organizations created to dispute the evidence...well, I dunno.

Some of the best evidence comes from the University of Minnesota Raptor Center's research.  They deal with an average of something over 100 eagles annually, 75% have high levels of lead in their blood stream.  These eagles begin showing up immediately after deer season opens up (bald eagles are just a well dressed vulture, as behavior goes) and continue until such time as ice out in the spring when they go back to fishing for a majority of their food.

The bloodwork regularly shows two of the four isotopes of lead.  One isotope is the one found in leaded gasoline, and it is never found in the bloodwork.  Second is a background isotope found naturally occurring in soils and, typically, is waters where glacial deposits left cinnabarite (a lead bearing ore), and this occurs in low levels.  But the third and fourth isotopes are found in galena ores that are mined for lead smelting and is used in all kinds of industrial uses, including bullets. THAT is the one that shows up in high levels in sick birds. 

Now, to narrow down possible sourcing of that lead in the bloodstream, they also began testing for copper and zinc.  Why those two?  Gilding metal, 95% copper, 5% zinc.  That's the common jacket for dang near every modern bullet manufactured.  Copper and zinc also shows up in the blood of lead poisoned raptors at the exact ratio of 95:5.  This is what is known in science as a one to one correlation.

As for the vulture family, yes, they have the most amazing digestive system in the world!  Turkey vultures can eat ANTHRAX INFECTED DEAD ANIMALS and digest the anthrax spores, rendering them harmless.  That's pure ornery!  They are also so fast in their digestion that they have to work extra hard to extract calcium before the food passes thru the digestive tract. Consequently, they are instinctually driven to swallow ANYTHING hard that they encounter while feasting on the bloated corpse of what they find.  This instinct serves to drive them to eat any bone fragments they find, but also means they will grab up any bullet fragments. 

Now, for bullet fragments. If you want a basic primer on what happens to a bullet after it strikes a body, follow this link: http://www.peregrinefund.org/subsites/conference-lead/PDF/0109%20Stroud.pdf

High speed bullets react differently than pre-smokeless powder rounds in that on impact the lead suffers more "ablation".  The bullet mushrooms and exposes more surface area.  This means more surface area of lead and tiny flakes of lead are freed up and remain behind in the tissue.  As a sphere doubles in surface area, it triples in volume.  That means the smaller the flake, the more surface area for a given mass.  And it is the amount of surface area is what is the killer.  A gram of lead as a solid piece is almost indigestible for a human as it will pass thru our digestive tract.  A gram of lead dust is tens of thousands of times more digestible and will result in significantly higher levels of lead in the blood.  When a bullet leaves behind what is now called a "lead snowstorm" of tiny fragments in the chest cavity, you leave an amount of lead behind that is extremely digestible and highly toxic. 

Now, lead is known to be toxic.  It is one of a very, very, very small number of elements on the periodic table that our bodies do not need in any amount. Many elements are toxic at higher levels, but are a necessary mineral at low levels.  Lead is not only unnecessary, but causes irreparable damage at any level.  Not only that, but it cannot be excreted from your system once it is absorbed.  Not the liver, the kidneys, the lympatic system, nor the lungs, or any system designed to excrete wastes.  Once your body, or the body of any animal from the largest mammals to the smallest bacteria, absorbs an atom of lead, it is there to stay.  Permanently.  Forever.  Amen. Chelation therapy is necessary, a chemical that is more attracted to lead than calcium receptive molecules in your body is introduced and it binds to the lead.  That chemical compound is then able to be excreted from your body, but it does not happen naturally.  And any damage done by the lead in the meanwhile is often irreversible, so removing the lead from the organism doesn't really fix anything.

What does lead do?  It absolutely wrecks nerves and the work nerves do.  The brain is affected as well as the central nervous system and the peripheral nervous system.  In humans, lead poisoning leads to impaired brain function, uncoordinated muscular reaction, fumbling stumbling uncoordination.

So you aren't as nimble doing a Texas two-step with your special lady and you step on her toes more than you did when you first met. She still loves you and you both laugh and go on with your merry lives. But if you are a condor, vulture, eagle, falcon, or hawk, your very life depends on lightning fast reaction speeds.  Your coordination needs to be flawless because Nature tolerates nothing but perfection.  Your very ability to fly requires amazing dexterity in your wings, control over each and every flight feather, your life depends on it.  Shave off a few points and suddenly it takes more work to do the deed.  A few days without food and now you are out of reserves, one single day of missed meals means you no longer have the strength to fly and you are dead.  Predatory birds do not carry more than a few days extra calories because flight won't allow it. 

Some of the best research has been done in Wyoming on the National Elk Refuge.  They conducted years of research on eagles and ravens PRIOR to doing a ammunition exchange, giving hunters copper ammo for lead.  Post exchange data shows a reduction in lead levels in these scavenger species commensurate with the ratio of lead to copper hunting.  Again, direct one to one correlation. 

My own experience has been positive.  I went with Barnes TSX copper ammo for the .243, same gun I used to shoot 3" groups at 100 yards suddenly started shooting INCHERS!!!  Ha!  Maybe I am not such a bad shot after all, I just needed some seriously accurate ammo.  To get close to the weight of lead, they have to make a copper bullet longer and consequently, a better ballistic coefficient.  Deer I shoot tend to not wander far, not with their entire lung cavity turned into squishy jelly!

If you decide to not go with lead free ammo, consider burying the gutpile so that raptors don't scavenge on the remains.  That's what I am doing with the deer I shoot with the ol' flintlock. 

Here's what it looks like:
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=youtube+minnesota+raptor+center+bald+eagle+lead+poisoning&qpvt=youtube+minnesota+raptor+center+bald+eagle+lead+poisoning&FORM=VDRE#view=detail&mid=F85E91E0AC424060CE8BF85E91E0AC424060CE8B

I am available for discussion, but if you wanna troll, P.A. ain't the place.  AND ARROWS AIN'T GOT ANY LEAD ANYWAY!  MWAHAHAHAHA
« Last Edit: November 08, 2015, 06:13:38 pm by JW_Halverson »
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Offline mullet

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Re: Condors and lead
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2015, 06:04:30 pm »
Thanks, John for some facts and not a wooden spoon.
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Offline JW_Halverson

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Re: Condors and lead
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2015, 06:08:09 pm »
Thanks, John for some facts and not a wooden spoon.

Been told if I stir the pot, I gotta lick the spoon afterwards.
Guns have triggers. Bicycles have wheels. Trees and bows have wooden limbs.

Offline willie

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Re: Condors and lead
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2015, 06:17:31 pm »
Jw

I hear what you are saying about the lead in the meat. Wasn't the lead shot ban on waterfowl instituted because the ducks were thought to be eating the expended shot when they fed in the marshes? What is the current thinking on the severity of that problem?  Has the changeover had any quantifiable or documented benefits?
« Last Edit: November 08, 2015, 06:23:05 pm by willie »

Offline Zuma

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Re: Condors and lead
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2015, 07:07:05 pm »
According to the folks that did the research--
they wanted to blame a large part of the implanted/
transplanted Condor deaths on lead poison.
This study was in the Grand Canyon area.
The thing that struck me peculiar was that they
blamed it on hunting losses, creatures that are
shot and not tracked or recovered.
The Condors then
eat these creatures and the lead that they consume
 brings about their demise.
I say BS. Any thoughts?

Zuma

Jw your reply was lengthy, yes but informative to those
that are interested in more than just the documentary
that aired recently. I high lighted what they said in the documentary.
What they didn't say was that the Condors may be getting
lead poisoning from the guts of recovered deer that get killed by
high velocity ammo. I also saw no mention of the guts in the links I read.
It would be cool if you have some pull to bring this to the attention of
 those trying to solve these problems. Glad you brought it to our attention.
Kinda curious about your trolling comment??
Can you elaborate? Thanks
Zuma
If you are a good detective the past is at your feet. The future belongs to Faith.

Offline bubby

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Re: Condors and lead
« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2015, 07:30:04 pm »
I knew eventually Mr Halverson would show up on this thread, he and I already hashed this out once and I'll happily stay out of this one
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Offline mullet

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Re: Condors and lead
« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2015, 08:57:31 pm »
Zuma;; as far as the Trolling comment,,,,, why do we want to go there? Why not stick to this Topic?
Lakeland, Florida
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Offline bubby

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Re: Condors and lead
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2015, 09:46:24 pm »


Just a reminder as to why they are working to ban lead
failure is an option, everyone fails, it's how you handle it that matters.
The few the proud the 27🏹

Offline Zuma

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Re: Condors and lead
« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2015, 10:25:58 pm »
Zuma;; as far as the Trolling comment,,,,, why do we want to go there? Why not stick to this Topic?

I was thinking the exact darn thing ;)
Zuma
If you are a good detective the past is at your feet. The future belongs to Faith.