Author Topic: Mary Rose replica arrows  (Read 10960 times)

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Offline Urufu_Shinjiro

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Re: Mary Rose replica arrows
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2016, 02:53:18 pm »
Oh man, I saw these posted on FB under the SCA Target Archery group, I pulled up this thread here today and was like "man those pics look real familiar....wait a minute..." lol

I should have used plastic nocks, right?

 ;)

HAHA! Now there's an inside joke, lol

Offline WillS

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Re: Mary Rose replica arrows
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2016, 03:00:46 pm »
Speaking of nocks. If you use the horn insert, wrapping is not necessary?

Many people do both - they do the horn insert and then wrap below the nock itself.  Personally, I've never found it necessary, and we know for certain that it wasn't done during the medieval/Tudor period. 

The argument is that they weren't re-using arrows and wrapping the nocks makes them more durable for numerous shots but I've never managed to accept the idea that they went to all this trouble and expense to make single use ammunition. 

Either way - I've never wrapped a nock that has a horn insert and I've yet to have them fail. 

Offline Matt L

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Re: Mary Rose replica arrows
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2016, 01:12:33 pm »
Very nice Will- I was just looking at making some of these myself (have done one now actually) so it's really interesting to see how you did things. 

I'm curious about the fletching attachment method you used though- is it just one possibility or has the matter of how the MR arrows were assembled been clarified/ resolved? Another thread I found had some debate about the adhesive and attachment order- whether or not hide glue was used, that the shaft was coated in the glue/verdigris mixture first, and the feathers and binding thread applied after since the adhesive remains intact with only impressions from them (whereas if it were applied over top, everything would be gone or the bases of the feathers at least and the thread would still be present), etc. 

I don't doubt that there were multiple methods used, but I always like to know as many clear facts as possible before making recreations, and since your method is different than I'd expected, I'd really like to know specifically what you based it on.

Thanks much.

Matt

Offline WillS

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Re: Mary Rose replica arrows
« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2016, 05:58:38 am »
It's still unknown, really.  It's just down to experimenting and seeing what makes the most practical sense.

There was definitely animal glue found during the scientific analysis of the arrows, which is most likely hide glue for gluing the fletchings down first, but it's impossible to say where in the many layers it occurred.

When you go and look at the MR arrows in person, you can see that on some the thread is still there, some have the impression marks and thick glassy compound, on others it's just an impression with no adhesive left at all, and on a few there's absolutely no sign whatsoever of anything at the fletching end - no glue, no compound, no binding marks and no feather impression.

My personal view having tried many methods and from studying the originals is that it was done the way I made these, but I know others will swear by a different method!

Offline Matt L

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Re: Mary Rose replica arrows
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2016, 10:34:24 am »
Ah, okay, thanks much.  Indeed there's no doubt there'll be other opinions about what works best- there always are  ;)  I myself was surprised at your method because I'd been thinking that the over-glue method was the most straight-forward, quick and easy.  Now I'm quite interested in trying yours.

So this leads me to another question if you don't mind: how did you deal with the lateral curve of your feathers?  I've literally just made my very first arrow and that's one of issues I was pleased to find solved very easily by binding them on over the glue and then re-melting it: one can straighten even very curved feathers because the binding holds them steady- no need for any extra trimming or anything.

Initially I'd thought about a method more like yours- starting by gluing feathers to the shaft with hide glue- but I had trouble coming up with a way to deal with the lateral curvature of my goose feathers; I tried using a sharp utility knife and scissors both to pare away the sides of the proximal end of the quill where it was widest, but it was sadly easy to wreck feathers that way.  Using abrasives didn't work either- so how did you manage it?





 

Offline WillS

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Re: Mary Rose replica arrows
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2016, 06:34:16 pm »
I prepare my feathers by first splitting the quill, then placing the feather between two bits of wood with the quill sticking out and using a sanding block with 60 grit sandpaper to take the quill down to paper thin.  Then I use scissors to trim the sides until there's virtually nothing left.

Originally, they would have simply peeled their feathers away from the quill.  That gives a perfect base to attach them to the shaft, but it's so thin it's almost transparent.  I find it a slightly unreliable method when using feathers that have been stored for a while.

Offline Pat B

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Re: Mary Rose replica arrows
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2016, 07:25:31 pm »
Will, you can rehydrate feathers by placing them in a zip lock baggie with a damp paper towel in it. It only takes a day or two. Dry feathers don't strip well, hydrated ones do.
 I too split the quill and sand the base. I like a slightly stiffer base...but I don't wrap my fletching either.   ;)
Make the most of all that comes and the least of all that goes!    Pat Brennan  Brevard, NC

Offline WillS

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Re: Mary Rose replica arrows
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2016, 07:15:48 am »
Hey, that's a neat trick!  I need to try that.  I never liked that incredibly thin base I have to admit.  Having some strength there makes a big difference in the fiddly-factor!

Offline Buck67

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Re: Mary Rose replica arrows
« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2016, 07:46:56 pm »
Did you make your own Verdigris or is there a place to get it?  I have made a dozen or so of these arrows and did not use the the tallow/glue mix or the Verdigris.  Looks like a Winter project.


Offline WillS

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Re: Mary Rose replica arrows
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2016, 05:50:25 am »
You probably can buy the copper verdigris powder, but it's so easy to make it seems a waste of money otherwise.  Some random bits of copper suspended over vinegar in a jar for a few months and you've got enough for about 12 arrows.  Set up 5 jars and you'll be sorted for life, as once you've scraped off the verdigris you can put the copper back in the jar with some new vinegar and keep recycling.

Offline Buck67

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Re: Mary Rose replica arrows
« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2016, 06:49:05 am »
Thanks, I have the copper, vinegar and time.  Reckon it's time to make Verdigris.


Offline Matt L

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Re: Mary Rose replica arrows
« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2016, 10:10:43 am »
Thanks Will- that's how I was working on mine too and had trouble, but perhaps the issue was not clamping them tightly enough.  I saw a video on YouTube where the fellow used a regular door hinge with a couple of strips of mild steel riveted to it as a feather clamp and it seemed to work very nicely.

And thank you too Pat for suggesting hydration- I'd tried the stripping method too and had very minimal results; more often than not the feather tore half way down and was useless for the long 17cm or so fletches I wanted.

On the subject of the verdigris additive, I wonder how much is necessary- I worked in a biology lab for a while after university and we used copper sulfate in water baths to prevent spores from growing, and it's so potent, only a tiny amount is necessary; but verdigris made from fuming with vinegar is copper acetate so could be different- and it's to stop bugs from eating the glue as much as moulds, so could a tiny concentration still put them off?  I wouldn't be surprised.  I think I might try a simple experiment- leaving a blob of dried glue and one of glue with a little verdigris in outside in my yard where the ants live and see if they take both or just one.  If that works I can try different concentrations of verdigris to see if there's a lower limit...

Offline WillS

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Re: Mary Rose replica arrows
« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2016, 12:04:54 pm »
Well luckily we don't need to guess ;)  It's all documented in Weapons of Warre, where scientific analysis was done on the arrows and there's a clear graph showing exactly how much copper (and zinc) was present in the compound.  Well worth getting the books, if you don't have them already.  There's everything you could ever want to know in them, from timber species used on various arrows right down to the chemical makeup of the glues.

We also know just how intense the green colouring was on many medieval arrows by simply looking at artwork.  Plenty of the arrows depicted have such dark, rich green colouring on the shaftment that it's almost black.  This would go hand in hand with my own personal theory that much of it was as to do with the appearance as the chemical benefits of verdigris.  Take Henry VIII's personal colours for instance - green, red and white.  You've got bright green verdigris compound, white goose feathers and red silk all combined into one item of ammunition.