Black cherry recommendations, And boom she goes

[Stringman]

True enough, have fun!

[mikekeswick]

Perhaps I'm stubborn, but I've always believed that if a species of wood can make a 50lb bow, it can make a 150lb bow if treated properly 

The majority a few years ago said hazel would never go above 50lb, and yet two bowyers took it to 160lb when they completely reversed the cross section.  Same with holly, and a fair while ago with ash.  You still get people today insisting ash needs heat treatment and a heavily trapped back to make a decent bow, which is fundamentally incorrect!  It's about trying new things, and seeing what happens. 

If nobody pushes the boat out and gets crazy, we'd all be sat reading the same out of date rubbish on forums doing nothing new 

If a good 50# bow can be made from a particular species of course a 100# bow can also be made, that is fairly obvious. It is simply a question of scale. Wood is wood and knows nothing of what fancy pants bow it is. The wood simply reacts to strain. If you keep that strain without the woods limits you are within its limits. Take it over and either you will get excessive set or an explosion.
Nothing new under the sun.....things can be rediscovered but you are mistaken if you think any of this stuff is 'new'. Are you saying that ash doesn't act better with heat treatment and trapped back? If so I would suggest you are wrong.

[WillS]

Are you saying that ash doesn't act better with heat treatment and trapped back?

Nope.  I'm saying it's not necessary to make a good bow.  Some people insist you HAVE to do it, to make an ash bow work.  This is incorrect   

There's been quite a few discussions amongst a particular American reenactment group recently about hickory making a good bow.  Any good bowyer knows it's an excellent bow wood, but all these reenactors are buying super cheap hickory bows made by terrible bowyers who use a yew cross section, and complain when it takes excessive set and fails.  A lot of them consider themselves "experts" and insist that hickory DOES NOT MAKE A GOOD BOW.

It's the same as saying a cherry bow will NOT make a warbow when it just needs the right approach, like all woods.  Remember when Ryoon made a poplar warbow?  Anyway, I believe we agree - you said it very succinctly with "It is simply a question of scale. Wood is wood and knows nothing of what fancy pants bow it is. The wood simply reacts to strain. If you keep that strain without the woods limits you are within its limits. Take it over and either you will get excessive set or an explosion."  This means that black cherry will absolutely make a heavy bow, provided it's treated properly.

I look forward to seeing further attempts, because it's a really good bow wood, so with the right cross section (and tiller - this is important, surprisingly...) it should make a brilliant heavy bow 

[Stringman]

Why don't you do it Will? It would seem appropriate for its staunches defender to realize its greatest potential. No reason for us to continue to scoff if/when you pull it off. And then you can jump from the theorist camp to the builder. Let's stop all this meaningless gabbing about what it can do and show us what it did do.

"Really good bow wood" sounds like hogwash to me, but then I've been blessed to work with some of the best.

[WillS]

I don't think I've ever seen a black cherry tree, let alone staves of it 

Quite why people on a bow making forum are so negative about somebody trying to make a bow I don't know, but it's pretty disappointing.

I guess everybody just wants to see an endless stream of yew bows and nothing else.  2 people still counts as "everyone" right? 

[WillS]

By the way, it was Jaro and not me who documented that black cherry outshoots other bows of the same weight.  He's got more experience with making bows from unusual timber than pretty much anybody else who's ever posted on these forums, so if it's "hogwash" you should let him know 

[Marc St Louis]

Are you saying that ash doesn't act better with heat treatment and trapped back?

Nope.  I'm saying it's not necessary to make a good bow.  Some people insist you HAVE to do it, to make an ash bow work.  This is incorrect   

There's been quite a few discussions amongst a particular American reenactment group recently about hickory making a good bow.  Any good bowyer knows it's an excellent bow wood, but all these reenactors are buying super cheap hickory bows made by terrible bowyers who use a yew cross section, and complain when it takes excessive set and fails.  A lot of them consider themselves "experts" and insist that hickory DOES NOT MAKE A GOOD BOW.

It's the same as saying a cherry bow will NOT make a warbow when it just needs the right approach, like all woods.  Remember when Ryoon made a poplar warbow?  Anyway, I believe we agree - you said it very succinctly with "It is simply a question of scale. Wood is wood and knows nothing of what fancy pants bow it is. The wood simply reacts to strain. If you keep that strain without the woods limits you are within its limits. Take it over and either you will get excessive set or an explosion."  This means that black cherry will absolutely make a heavy bow, provided it's treated properly.

I look forward to seeing further attempts, because it's a really good bow wood, so with the right cross section (and tiller - this is important, surprisingly...) it should make a brilliant heavy bow 

Well that's a bit of a stretch.  I don't know who has ever said that BC is "really good bow wood" but they obviously haven't made many BC bows.  I made several longbows, along with a few other different styles, many years ago out of BC and I can tell you it does not like a round belly. Can you say chrysal, chrysal, chrysal really fast 3 times?  With the right style of bow it can out-shoot many others if you make both bows to the same physical dimensions.  The problem here is many other wood species can be made smaller.

I've known Jaroslav for a long time and I would be hesitant to say he has made more bows out unusual wood than most others

I cut a couple of fairly large BC trees many years ago, I specially selected the trees for cutting after many hours of looking at different trees.  Most of that wood is still sitting in my storage shed, I'm sure you can all guess why from my opinion of BC

[Stringman]

I guess everybody just wants to see an endless stream of yew bows and nothing else.  2 people still counts as "everyone" right? 

Still misquoting me I see... at least you admit to having no experience of what you speak. Never seen a black cherry tree... huh?!? At least the parameters of your professional opinion are no longer in question.

[WillS]

Not sure I quoted anybody.  I said I guess.  That means "I think" 

As for my "professional opinion" I made it very clear in my first comment that I'd never worked with black cherry.  It's right there for you to look at  

I have however made a large number of meane wood warbows from wood that a lot of people told me wouldn't work.  That's where the fun is for me, instead of reading "expert" advice on wood that SHOULD fail, and just deciding never to try it.  We wouldn't get very far in life if we only stuck by what certain people told us.

[WillS]

I don't know who has ever said that BC is "really good bow wood" but they obviously haven't made many BC bows.

Jaro did.  It's on the English Warbow Society and reads "as longbows in sporting weights (around 50#) made from this wood, outshoot everything else - including laminates."

I've known Jaroslav for a long time and I would be hesitant to say he has made more bows out unusual wood than most others

I think it's fair to say Jaro has an excellent reputation for pushing woods to very heavy weights.  He was one of the first to take ash and plum to around 160lb, and is somebody I would trust if he says BC makes good bows.  This coupled with the fact that as Mike said "it's a matter of scaling up" tell me that BC will make a warbow.

I could be completely wrong, but my general point here is that if you don't try, you don't find out.  Just because people say it can't be done, doesn't mean it can't be done.  There's plenty of proof of that in bow making.

[Del the cat]

A few points:-
1. Its 3 people who have said BC is unsuitable throughout the thread. Mullet, Stringman and Marc StLouis. Others have implied the wood was unsuitable.
2. The whole point of this site is personal experience not second or third hand experience (which is why I offered no opinion of the suitability).
3. Without pictures it didn't happen, so claims of "large numbers of meanwood bows" are about as impressive of me telling of the time Kylie Minogue stayed over .
Del

[WillS]

Unlike you, I don't have a blog.  Therefore I don't need to photograph all of the bows I make and sell.  I just make them and sell them. 

Whether Derek chooses to believe what I say (in a thread in which he offered no opinion in the first place except to summarise a thread for people who are already reading it, and then tell the OP not to bother wasting his time trying to make a bow) really, really doesn't bother me too much.  Can't think of a nicer way to put that I'm afraid.

I'm out.  To the OP - don't be put off.  Please keep trying, 'cos if there's a warbow in BC you'll be the first to get it out as everybody else thinks it's pointless!  Just like they did with holly, hazel, willow, plum and apple before people made them into warbows too 

[BowEd]

I suggest you put us all in our place and make a 100# black cherry war bow from your own expense and time then.

[Marc St Louis]

Perhaps Jaroslav was using a wood other than NA BC.  In any case I would have to agree that it should make a warbow with the right design, keep the belly flat and the stress low.  How long it will last is another thing.

[Stringman]

I'd also like to see a 100# willow bow. You then could slather me with butter and call me "Shiney" cause I'd be shocked!

I guess it is worth pointing out that among us peers there are many interpretations for what is a good bow. It follows that "good bow wood" also has a variety of perspectives. Moreover, "really good bow wood" may not be reserved by some for the top of the class like it is with me. Under this false assumption I reckon this post has been driven into the ground with posts that are not even on the same footing.

So in an effort to get us back on track, I would not recommend using BC for a high weight war bow and here's why: it's fickle characteristics make it an unlikely survivor. (not for newbies.) Poor compression strength make perfect tiller mandatory. (can you say chrysal?) Requisite oversizing is not always feasible and makes for an unweildy bow. (Yes I did see Ryan's poplar bow - first hand- it was neither durable nor comfortable to shoot.)