Author Topic: Force draw on bow?  (Read 9729 times)

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Offline Selfbowman

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Re: Force draw on bow?
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2017, 05:59:30 am »
This is not one of the best I've built but a good one. 200yds with linen string. 500 gr arrow . The bow weighs 23 oz.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2017, 06:27:50 am by Selfbowman »
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Offline Selfbowman

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Re: Force draw on bow?
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2017, 06:23:11 am »
Springbuck the bow took some set at inner midlimb and in fade area.it is 1-1/2 at fades.lost 1in off the caul. Tips between 1/8 -1/4 wide .Arvin
Well I'll say!!  Osage is king!!

Offline Selfbowman

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Re: Force draw on bow?
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2017, 06:36:55 am »
  You need to take a measure at least once every 2" to get a decent curve reading. The early draw is very important. Ideally, it would climb very fast in the begaining and then start flattening out to as low angle as possible. We just don't see anything that dramatic on self bows though. If you get a slight hump you are doing pretty good. I expect with your profile you should get a little hump.

Steve my spring scale starts at 15 pounds. At 10-18# , 12"22# , 14"28# , 16"-30# ,18-33# ,20"-38#
22"-42# ,24"-46# , 26-50# , 27" 51#.  I think I need a better scale. Arvin
« Last Edit: February 21, 2017, 07:14:28 am by Selfbowman »
Well I'll say!!  Osage is king!!

Offline BowEd

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Re: Force draw on bow?
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2017, 08:35:23 am »
Those graph numbers look pretty normal and good.I think really the fdc tells a person exactly how a bow will feel when being drawn is all.Different designs show different type lines.Delivering the energy efficiently after release is a matter of proper design and tillering.More gizmos to use testing for that like a chronograph or measuring the distance an arrow is shot.So all in all it goes back to design and tillering.
For accuracy I seem to like the nice easy pull of just a plain self long bow opposed to the highly reflexed bow demanding more concentration from me during the draw,and have to be up on my A game shooting.Length of bow can make a difference to me too.That's just me.
BowEd
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Ed

Offline Badger

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Re: Force draw on bow?
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2017, 08:42:50 am »
  The numbers listed above are actually a little too good. I wouldn't trust them. Force draws are such a pain in the ass to be accurate on. best off just using a chrono.

Offline Selfbowman

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Re: Force draw on bow?
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2017, 09:40:31 am »
Beadman I agree with you about bottom out shock , noise and recurving. I am also a smooth pulling good casting longbow guy. But right now I am trying my best to build for speed and cast. I can always go back to the other. Steve it might be in my 25$ scale. I used a arrow with one of my wife's hair ties on it to make sure I did not over draw each pull so the out of whack readings may be the scale. Like I said this is not a super bow but a good one. Cast don't lie much when you put three arrows within 3 yds at 200. Arvin
Well I'll say!!  Osage is king!!

Offline gfugal

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Re: Force draw on bow?
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2017, 02:37:15 pm »
Arrow speed is the best measurement you can rely on. However, it doesn't sound like you have a chronograph. Your force curve draw looks great. anything that isn't less than straight is good. Even straight is good. You're above straight.

Faster bows will usually have fatter force draw curves. This is because they store more energy. It is possible that a bow that stores more energy will shoot slower than a bow that stores less due to inefficiency of the former. But it is less likely to be the case. The same things that can decrease efficiency on a better f/d bow can plague a straight-limbed bow. Even if it is less efficient, to paraphrase Tim Baker, 60% of 100  is more than 80% of 70. The latter is more efficient but still shoots slower.


Greg,
No risk, no gain. Expand the mold and try new things.

Offline Selfbowman

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Re: Force draw on bow?
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2017, 04:40:23 pm »
Gfugal I have a crono but perfer the cast method . Sometimes I get better flight than the crono says I should. I get off the string faster and smoother shooting for flight verses shooting thru the crono. I always use the same arrows try for no wind under a high pressure for flight testing. So I can get
Better info. Arvin
Well I'll say!!  Osage is king!!

Offline gfugal

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Re: Force draw on bow?
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2017, 07:27:45 pm »
Gfugal I have a crono but perfer the cast method . Sometimes I get better flight than the crono says I should. I get off the string faster and smoother shooting for flight verses shooting thru the crono. I always use the same arrows try for no wind under a high pressure for flight testing. So I can get
Better info. Arvin

The flight of an arrow is proportional to its velocity. There are other factors such as the shape and weight of your arrow, lift, wind direction and the such that may be aiding in your flight. I feel a chrono would be easier, more reliable, and more consistent but that's my own preference. If you prefer distance all power to you.
Greg,
No risk, no gain. Expand the mold and try new things.

Offline Selfbowman

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Re: Force draw on bow?
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2017, 10:59:37 pm »
I am hearing you gfgual and am not saying you are wrong. I am going thru my on learning curve and with a pretty hard head.  If I live long enough and keep persuing my goal maybe. I have learned more in the last 3 years than the 10 years prior. It shows in my bows also. I am at the point where I am trying to figure out why things are working better and not just accepting my ability to feel deminishing mass as I build the bow. I feel testing is going to get me the rest of the way to my goal. I don't think I will ever build the perfect bow. I do believe I have room for improvement. Thanks to all that has been helpful . I am fat and need to walk 200 yards as often as possible! ;D Arvin
Well I'll say!!  Osage is king!!

Offline gfugal

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Re: Force draw on bow?
« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2017, 04:44:17 pm »
So this is actually a continuation of the compression woods topic that I felt was more pertinent here. Based off your drawing I plotted your force curve so I could do some calculations off it. But I also wanted to check to see if I got it right. The first number is the draw length, and last number is draw weight. Does that look right? It’s what I was able to make out from your drawing. I changed the starting point though. You had it starting at 0 inches but really it should start at your brace height (6 in.) since the 6 inches before brace can’t perform any of the work. By-the-way by doing this it makes your shows how impressive your force curve really is. From my excel program I calculated your potential energy as 59 ft•lbs (really it’s work in not potential energy, but it's fine for our purposes). The kinetic energy of your arrow (work out) is around 32 ft•lbs. Therefore, your bows efficiency (work-out/work-in) is around 54%. This was surprising to me, but is reasonable. All the bows I've tested have come out around 50% efficient as well, even store bought fiberglass bows. It may seem low, but I just think that's just how bows work. Basically, the reason your bow is so fast is because it has a great force curve, allowing it store more energy. I don't think it was because of super efficiency. My worst bow with more than 3 inches of set, and horrible stack, was about 48% efficient. Yours is clearly much better but even if it was 48% efficient than it would still shoot an arrow 164 fps than the current 170 fps at 54% efficiency. What did you use for string? I wonder how much of a difference a light nonstretching string would make over a heavier stretchier one.   
« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 04:55:23 pm by gfugal »
Greg,
No risk, no gain. Expand the mold and try new things.

Offline Selfbowman

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Re: Force draw on bow?
« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2017, 10:40:51 am »
Gregg that fdc is real close according to my spring bow scale.my question is ? Why does the fdc go down and back up. It took a bit of set at mid limb. Does that have anything to do with the fdc? Arvin
Well I'll say!!  Osage is king!!

Offline gfugal

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Re: Force draw on bow?
« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2017, 10:57:54 am »
Gregg that fdc is real close according to my spring bow scale.my question is ? Why does the fdc go down and back up. It took a bit of set at mid limb. Does that have anything to do with the fdc? Arvin
I'm honestly not sure why it went down. Ir could have been a glich in the scale (especially since there's so few measurements), or maybe something to do with the string angle at that specific spot, i'm not sure.  Set might decrease the early draw weight, overal draw weight and efficiency, but i don't see it doing that. Any body else have an explanation?
Greg,
No risk, no gain. Expand the mold and try new things.

Offline willie

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Re: Force draw on bow?
« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2017, 01:49:35 pm »
Quote
Any body else have an explanation?

you would probably be ok to smooth that curve. loose a lb or so @ 13", add a lb or so @19" etc....

just measuring "one the way up" vs "on the way down" makes a difference.

Quote
Steve my spring scale starts at 15 pounds............................... I think I need a better scale. Arvin

Offline Selfbowman

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Re: Force draw on bow?
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2017, 02:24:58 pm »
Greg on that one I think it was shot with 6 strands of linen. If not it was 8 strands d97.
Well I'll say!!  Osage is king!!