Author Topic: Bow Index vs Ipe  (Read 12794 times)

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Offline Badger

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Re: Bow Index vs Ipe
« Reply #45 on: April 07, 2017, 01:10:35 pm »
Steve,
I have often considered an experimental measurement such as you describe. In fact I have a metal drum that's perfect for clamping a test piece on, as soon as I can determine the thickness for the bend. The question I have is, what would I do with the information? I do not use NP location in any of my calcs, do you?
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   I think what would happen is that we would calibrate a rating system that would place the wood in 1 of 5 classes. each class might amount to a 1/4" in width we might need for a given design. You could also resolve some issues regarding trapping for instance.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2017, 01:13:47 pm by Badger »

Offline willie

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Re: Bow Index vs Ipe
« Reply #46 on: April 07, 2017, 02:14:16 pm »
I can see where knowing how a particular wood rates, would be helpful for trapping and limb cross section design.

You have lost me on the 1/4" width idea, though. Would you be kind enough to offer more detail?

thanks

Offline Badger

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Re: Bow Index vs Ipe
« Reply #47 on: April 07, 2017, 02:58:16 pm »
 Willie, suppose you start off and say a class 1 wood should be built at 1 1/4 wide for 50# and 66" long. Every class lower add 1/4" to the bows width. Somethign to that effect, I had not previosly given it much thought.

Offline Whiskeyjet

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Re: Bow Index vs Ipe
« Reply #48 on: April 08, 2017, 03:37:15 pm »
I love this thread

Offline LittleBen

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Re: Bow Index vs Ipe
« Reply #49 on: April 08, 2017, 10:55:14 pm »
As Alan Case put so well, the author should have multiplied by 100 instead of 1000 and that would have been %strain, which is a meaningful engineering measurement.

% strain at failure is not the best indicator of bow performance at all though because it ignores the force required to achieve the strain and it ignores mass.

IMO the best bow index would be MOR/MOE x MOR/density which is at least roughly proportional to energy storage per unit mass. That formula basically amounts to a rough estimation of the area under the stress strain curve divided by the density.

It's still not perfect because as Alan noted, the wood may have already exceeded the elastic limit at the strain value corresponding to MOR; and more importantly for comparing different woods, some may fail very near the elastic limit, and others may undergo significant plastic deformation before failure. Since this is not necessarily constant across all woods, it makes it very difficult to use this type of data for quantitative or even qualitative comparative analysis.

Ideally you would test a whole bunch of woods using a single protocol and plot and publish stress strain curves for all the samples. Then you could do a pretty good retrospective analysis to determine energy storage/unit mass. Anyone have access to an Instron and a lot of free time. Lol.
I would test all the species in compression, and tension separately to get the most comprehensive data. Three point bending, or four point bending wouldn't be my first choice personally.

Sorry for the technical rant, but that's my take.

Offline Ballasted_Bowyer

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Re: Bow Index vs Ipe
« Reply #50 on: April 10, 2017, 04:23:53 am »
As Alan Case put so well, the author should have multiplied by 100 instead of 1000 and that would have been %strain, which is a meaningful engineering measurement.

% strain at failure is not the best indicator of bow performance at all though because it ignores the force required to achieve the strain and it ignores mass.

IMO the best bow index would be MOR/MOE x MOR/density which is at least roughly proportional to energy storage per unit mass. That formula basically amounts to a rough estimation of the area under the stress strain curve divided by the density.

It's still not perfect because as Alan noted, the wood may have already exceeded the elastic limit at the strain value corresponding to MOR; and more importantly for comparing different woods, some may fail very near the elastic limit, and others may undergo significant plastic deformation before failure. Since this is not necessarily constant across all woods, it makes it very difficult to use this type of data for quantitative or even qualitative comparative analysis.

Ideally you would test a whole bunch of woods using a single protocol and plot and publish stress strain curves for all the samples. Then you could do a pretty good retrospective analysis to determine energy storage/unit mass. Anyone have access to an Instron and a lot of free time. Lol.
I would test all the species in compression, and tension separately to get the most comprehensive data. Three point bending, or four point bending wouldn't be my first choice personally.

Sorry for the technical rant, but that's my take.

That's gorgeous. Why not replace mor with elastic limit in you model?
Acts 10:12-13  "It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds. Then a voice told him, 'Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.'"

Offline LittleBen

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Re: Bow Index vs Ipe
« Reply #51 on: April 10, 2017, 07:28:36 pm »
No data on elastic limit is available. Like I said the best would be to have stress-strain curves for all the woods, then you could do quite a bit.